It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial
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Of course you believe that part because it lines up with your view but you will throw out the “these all died” part.
And he also died.
Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Well, you are not getting it then. Read it, and you will see that I believe that after the catching away of all the righteous when Jesus returns the wrath of God falls on all the wicked and destroy them.
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No! They are destroyed. Give me a rapture passage that says the wicked survive the coming of Christ and go into some tribulation period.
The wicked are all destroyed when Jesus comes. II Thessalonians 1:4-10 records: “we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.”
The Holy Spirit could hardly have made this more water-tight: men either know God or they don't. To know God is eternal life (John 17:3). This was also the case in Noah and Lot's day. Nothing has changed. If humans know Him, they are rescued at His return, if they do not know Him, they are destroyed. Simple! Premils have no problems with this reality when it comes to Noah and Lot's day. They only get awkward and pedantic when it comes to the second coming, because it negates their doctrine. They feel the need to diminish the scale and timing of the destruction in order to populate their alleged future millennial earth.
After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no man could number … standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes … Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, “who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come? “I said to him, sir, you know. And he said to me, “these are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb” (Revelation 7:9-14)
And? That is showing the redeemed in heaven now. Why can Pretribbers not address the Scripture and arguments attached? What are you avoiding?
This is the Pretrib MO. That is because you have nothing. Address the Op, if you can.Avoiding?Well, after this, those who would deny scripture of Christ himself appeared on their monitor and repeated the same thing his people here do.
Have fun.
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I know I know. It isn't there. Nope! Chuck Missler didn't preach about it at length and support his sermon with evidence from the Latin Vulgate or the Greek text.
Nope. Not at all. There's no such thing as the pre tribulation rapture annnnnnywhere in God's word. Nope. Nada. It's allllll an illusion.
Until it isn't.
Suggestion. Don't keep looking up.
I am not going to waste time on your false teachers who I cannot engage with. You hide behind them. If you had Scripture to support your teaching you would give it.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
And, what do you think this means exactly then? And, how do you differentiate between "the uttermost part of the earth" and "the uttermost part of heaven", as referenced in Mark 13:27?
Of course I don't. Please stop asking ridiculous questions. The word "rapture" itself refers to the act of being caught up to Christ. The angels will gather the elect after God raises the dead in Christ and changes everyone's bodies (including the living) to be immortal.
What kind of way to interpret scripture is this? Using this approach, you can never relate any two verses or passages together because this approach demands that two passages each contain all the same details in order to be related. That's ridiculous. There is nothing in 1 Thess 4:14-18 that contradicts what is in Matthew 24:29-31/Mark 13:24-27, so what basis is there for saying they are not the same event? Just because they don't contain all the same details? We should just ignore the similarities? There is only one future coming of the Lord and both 1 Thess 4:14-17 and Matthew 24:29-31/Mark 13:24-27 refer to it. And both refer to Christians being gathered at that time. There is no reason to think they are not about the same event.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
So, show us then. We're definitely not just going to take your word for it or Chuck Missler's word for it.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Of course not. Once Jesus comes it will be too later for anyone to repent and be saved. Today (now) is the day of salvation (2 Cor 6:2)! People need to repent now before it's too late and it will definitely be too late once Jesus comes.
Have you never read this:
Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. 31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. 32 Remember Lot's wife. 33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. 35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.
Throughout this passage Jesus indicates what will happen to believers when Jesus comes and the rapture occurs and what will happen to unbelievers at that time. He compares what will happen on the day He returns to what happened on the day Noah entered the ark which was that the flood came and destroyed all unbelievers (everyone left behind apart from the safety of the ark). He also compared what will happen on the day of His second coming and the rapture to what happened on the day Lot went out of Sodom. Those left behind in Sodom were all killed by the fire and brimstone that came down from heaven. Jesus said "Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.".
Does that seem to you that Jesus was saying anyone left behind could be saved when He purposely pointed out how no one left behind off the ark and no one left behind in Sodom were saved and compared that directly to the day of His second coming?
Then look at what He said after that. He said to remember Lot's wife. What did Lot's wife do? She looked back at the city despite being told not to do so. She cared more about her temporary life in this world than about eternal life with God, so she paid the price for that. She missed her life in the evil city of Sodom and that showed where her heart truly was rather than being submitted to God and His will instead. Anyone who is like that when Jesus returns will perish, also. And anyone left behind on the earth instead of being caught up to meet Christ in the air will be killed just as everyone left outside the ark was killed in Noah's day and everyone left in Sodom was killed in Lot's day. That's why Jesus talked about one being taken and one left behind. There's two possible things that will happen to all people on the day Christ returns. Everyone will either be changed to have immortal bodies and be caught up to meet Christ or they will be left behind and killed and will become food for the eagles or vultures, which is what verse 37 is about.
I cut your post short because you are in error at the start.For me,this means there is no scripture that can then prove your point is true when it is not in the word.
If no one can come into faith in Christ during the great tribulation,the wrath, why are people of faith being beheaded during the great tribulation in Revelation 20?
And who are those 144,000 described in Revelation 7?
Not true. I gave you proof. You ducked around it. That seems to be your MO.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
You cut it short before looking at the scripture which contradicts your pre-trib doctrine? How convenient.
Can you tell me how you can reconcile your view with the passage I quoted from Luke 17:26-37? It's quite telling that you didn't bother addressing what I said about that passage. Is it because you know that passage doesn't support pre-trib? If you think otherwise, then address what I said about it and show how you interpret it. I'm not going to address all your points and questions if you don't bother addressing mine first.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
It's the MO of all pretribs, apparently. We can't get a single pretrib to actually exegete scripture and show how exactly it supports their doctrine. Notice how he didn't bother addressing what I said about Luke 17:26-37. He knows that passage does not support pre-trib or else he would have addressed it.
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