It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial

[WPM]

The three verses you referenced in Matthew 24 do not all take place on the same day as the verses your referenced in Revelation 19, and thus are not the same event. So the answer is no, considering the way you phrased your question.

There are several events in Matthew 24:29-31.

in time line order, they are....

Matthew 24:29-30a , the sixth seal event of Revelation 6:12-17.

Matthew 24:30b, the event of Revelation 19:11-21.

Matthew 24:31, the event of Deuteronomy 30:3-6

Talk about butchering the Word of God! This is a classic case of eisegesis!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Talk about butchering the Word of God! This is a classic case of eisegesis!

He has no choice but to do that in order to deny the truth that Matthew 24:29-31 and 1 Thess 4:14-17 describe the same event. He turns every verse in Matthew 24 into a separate event. He even turns some verses, like Matthew 24:30, into two completely separate events. It's insane. A person can literally make scripture say anything they want it to say with that type of ridiculous approach. The way he twists and contorts scripture to make it say what he wants it to say is absolutely shameful.

 

[WPM]

He has no choice but to do that in order to deny the truth that Matthew 24:29-31 and 1 Thess 4:14-17 describe the same event. He turns every verse in Matthew 24 into a separate event. He even turns some verses, like Matthew 24:30, into two completely separate events. It's insane. A person can literally make scripture say anything they want it to say with that type of ridiculous approach. The way he twists and contorts scripture to make it say what he wants it to say is absolutely shameful.

It is grievous to the Spirit bro! It is blatant manipulation. Shame on him!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It is grievous to the Spirit bro! It is blatant manipulation. Shame on him!

He doesn't like when I call out his dishonest treatment of scripture, but too bad for him. I will continue to do so. It's unacceptable!

 

[Douggg]

You are claiming that "thte uttermost part of heaven" actually refers to all places on earth

You rephrased what I wrote.

Here is what I wrote..... The expression "from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" means gather the elect from all directions, inclusive of everywhere, even from the most extreme places.

It is the same expression used in Deuteronomy 30:4...

----------------------------------

Do you really think that it will be angels who will resurrect the dead in Christ and translate the living in Christ in this verse?

Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

There is nothing in the verse about resurrecting the dead, nor translating the living.... the two main actions of the rapture/resurrection event of 1Thessalonians4:15-18.

 

[Douggg]

Why do you keep reversing the Order of Scripture by placing the rapture BEFORE the Resurrection?

If we were in heaven, discussing the topic, maybe I would say the resurrection/rapture. But since we who are alive right on earth are discussing it, I choose to say rapture/resurrection, as it should be of upmost importance to us.

And the topic deals with the Pre-trib rapture.

 

[Keraz]

There is nothing in the verse about resurrecting the dead, nor translating the living.... the two main actions of the rapture/resurrection event of 1Thessalonians4:15-18.

THERE IS NOTHING IN 1 THESS 4;16-17 THAT PROPHESIES A rapture to heaven/resurrection EITHER!. OR ANYWHERE ELSE IN THE BIBLE.

Your continued and persistent pushing of false theories and fables, show you to be one of those people Paul warned Christians to have nothing to do with, 2 Timothy 4:3-4

 

[Biblepaige]

The Pretrib theory is dead. It is time to give it a decent burial. Anyone who observed the debate on the following thread will know how ludicrous and defunct the Pretrib position is.

The absurdity of Pretrib logic

Pretrib was well and truly put to death in that discussion. All Pretribbers had in response was ad hominem, belittling and avoidance (and in Dougg’s case distorted charts). There is nothing that they could do with clear and repeated Scripture, apart from dismiss it, twist it, or ignore it.

All of the arguments that were furnished in regard to the so-called Pretrib proof-texts were exposed and shown to teach the opposite of what they actually claimed. Many texts that Pretribbers presented made no reference to a rapture, a 7-years trib (or any trib) following a rapture. This was shown to be Left Behind fiction. None of the scriptural texts taught a 3rd coming of Christ. This was shown to be an extra-biblical Pretrib invention.

Now it is time to bury the corpse.

I want to highlight some of the extra-biblical Pretrib slants that were placed on the sacred text, and outline the biblical response, which Pretribulationalists had no response to. Whatever angle you look at the doctrine, it doesn't add up and Scripture does not teach it.

You will see as the thread develops how Pretribbers typically do their best to avoid the sacred text and simply denigrate the poster with their usual evasive and insulting responses. The old adage stands true: if you cannot attack the message, then attack the messenger.

Remember: we are going to look at all the main Pretrib "proof-texts." If Pretribbers are uncomfortable with these, and these do not prove the Pretrib theory (as they do not), then the theory is dead in the water.

I know it is hard to divorce a person's beliefs from the person. But this is not personal. I am not attacking Pretribbers, I am confronting what I believe to be false teaching here.

Daniel 9



Where in Daniel 9 does it mention the Church? Where does it mentioned a rapture? Where does it mention a tribulation period, and where does it mention a 3rd coming? It is simply not there! It has to be forced into the sacred text!

The 10 virgins

Jesus said in Matthew 25:1-13: “Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried (the intra-Advent period), they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom; ‘go ye out’ [Gr. exerchomai] to meet him. Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came [Gr. erchomai]; and they that were ready ‘went in’ [Gr. eiserchomai] with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.”



Most end-time commentators correctly relate this passage to the coming of Christ. Whilst we cannot find any mention of phrases like “caught up” or “gathering together” in this text there is broad agreement that there is a definite reference to the catching away or rescue of the saints in the direction “go ye out” and the resulting action – they “went in.”

The command “go ye out” is simply one Greek word exerchomai meaning depart, escape, or get out, go. The phrase describing the response of the faithful “went in” is the single Greek word eiserchomai normally translated in the New Testament as to ‘come in’ or ‘to enter’. It can also be interpreted ‘to arise’. In keeping with many second coming passages there is an allusion to those who escape the judgment of God as being those who made themselves “ready.” This is a common theme found in regard to the catching away. It certainly correlates with the consistent portrayal of this impending climactic event. This passage is basically a call for preparedness for Christ’s coming.

The parable of the virgins actually agrees totally with the climactic nature of the coming of Christ. Men are either caught up or caught on. Being ready means rescue, being locked outside means destruction. Interpreting Scripture with Scripture would assist you here. As in Noah’s day, “the door was shut” – the day of opportunity was final closed – and those left outside were totally destroyed.

The solemn side of this parable is the awful plight of the five foolish virgins who had no oil in their lamps. Like the wicked that were left in Noah’s day, the religious will cry when it is too late: “Lord, Lord, open to us.” The only problem is it is too late. The solemn cry will come from the Master, “Verily I say unto you, I know you not” (vv 11-12). This is exactly what Jesus says to the wicked at the final judgment. He isn't saying: ‘welcome to a 7 year tribulation period’ or ‘welcome to the Premil millennium for another chance’. Sadly, they are damned and doomed for all eternity.

In this parable, Jesus rejects the unprepared virgins. In Pretrib theology it does not have Jesus finally shutting the door (as He taught), but, rather, leaving it ajar. It gives the foolish virgins a second chance to make it, despite them being unprepared and despite them having rejected numerous opportunities before He comes they miss the boat.

This passage is basically a call for preparedness for Christ’s coming. It is nothing to do with percentages. Many parables are like that. It is to do with believers and unbelievers. It is describing those that are ready and those that are not. The enlightened will get the thrust. Whether theologians want to apply this to the visible church or to all mankind makes little difference. That is not worth fighting over. It is the overall trust that Christ is pressing up - be prepared.

Obviously, those left behind are unbelievers! Whether they are religious unbelievers, false professors within the visible church, or out-and-out heathens, is secondary. They simply do not belong to Jesus. They are lost. They miss the boat! Their day of opportunity is gone. All they have now is destruction. They are damned and doomed to a lost eternity.

What other teachings in the Bible would you say needs a burial?

 

[David in NJ]

If we were in heaven, discussing the topic, maybe I would say the resurrection/rapture. But since we who are alive right on earth are discussing it, I choose to say rapture/resurrection, as it should be of upmost importance to us.

And the topic deals with the Pre-trib rapture.

How does being on earth REVERSE the Order given in Scripture by the OT Prophets, the LORD Jesus Christ and the Apostles?

 

[Biblepaige]

I know it is hard to divorce a person's beliefs from the person. But this is not personal. I am actually confronting false teaching here.

The burden of proof is with you. After all, the first principle of evidence is: "he who alleges must prove!"

Then the burden is on you.
And when the words of God prove your supposition per the thread title is not only false, but is blasphemous against the prophecy of God, your denial of Scripture proof merely compounds your offenses.

If there is no such thing as a rapture,a taking up, of God's Elect before his wrath befalls the world then there would be not a single word much less entire passages that describe that plan.

But there are.

What you will not accept,and you don't need to because God's truth outlives the skeptic, is this one absolute.
And that is,just because skeptics claim a teaching from God does not exist does not make a targeted teaching from God evaporate or lose authority.

You are fallible. God is not.

You don't believe there to be scripture support for the rapture prior to God's wrath upon the world in the end times .

OK.
So what?

You don't believe!

It's silly to try to get us to follow your error.
The Latin Vulgate proves you wrong. The Greek word for rapture exists in Scripture and proves you wrong.

The Old Testament shows God raptured whom he would as he intended. Enoch for example.

You don't believe.

OK.
So what?

 

[IndianaRob]

Then the burden is on you.
And when the words of God prove your supposition per the thread title is not only false, but is blasphemous against the prophecy of God, your denial of Scripture proof merely compounds your offenses.

If there is no such thing as a rapture,a taking up, of God's Elect before his wrath befalls the world then there would be not a single word much less entire passages that describe that plan.

But there are.

What you will not accept,and you don't need to because God's truth outlives the skeptic, is this one absolute.
And that is,just because skeptics claim a teaching from God does not exist does not make a targeted teaching from God evaporate or lose authority.

You are fallible. God is not.

You don't believe there to be scripture support for the rapture prior to God's wrath upon the world in the end times .

OK.
So what?

You don't believe!

It's silly to try to get us to follow your error.
The Latin Vulgate proves you wrong. The Greek word for rapture exists in Scripture and proves you wrong.

The Old Testament shows God raptured whom he would as he intended. Enoch for example.

You don't believe.

OK.
So what?

Enoch died and his translation before the death of his body is an example of how all believers leave this world.

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

 

[David in NJ]

Enoch died and his translation before the death of his body is an example of how all believers leave this world.

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Enoch died and his translation before the death of his body is an example of how all believers leave this world.

The Book of Hebrews says the saints/elect/believers physical bodies die FIRST/BEFORE they are Translated.

JESUS said we put off our physical bodies/death BEFORE we are Transformed/Translated = Matt 22:30
Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God.
For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven.

1 Corinthians declares the SAME Truth as JESUS = 1 Corinthians ch15
Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?

Enoch, a single individual, not a collective group nor representing of a collective group, was translated for TWO Specific Purposes which God has unfolded to us in His word.

Enoch was translated DURING Great Tribulation on earth, not BEFORE but During.

Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
So the Lord said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.”
But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.

 

[IndianaRob]

The Book of Hebrews says the saints/elect/believers physical bodies die FIRST/BEFORE they are Translated.

JESUS said we put off our physical bodies/death BEFORE we are Transformed/Translated = Matt 22:30
Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God.
For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven.

1 Corinthians declares the SAME Truth as JESUS = 1 Corinthians ch15
Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?

Enoch, a single individual, not a collective group nor representing of a collective group, was translated for TWO Specific Purposes which God has unfolded to us in His word.

Enoch was translated DURING Great Tribulation on earth, not BEFORE but During.

That’s your version.

 

[David in NJ]

That’s your version.

That is DIRECT words from the Holy Scriptures: "how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?"
But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

Now i see why you are so upset with me: "that's your version"

 

[IndianaRob]

That is DIRECT words from the Holy Scriptures: "how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?"
But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

Now i see why you are so upset with me: "that's your version"

I’m not upset with you I just know how you handle scripture so there’s no point in responding to all the errors in your post.

 

[WPM]

Then the burden is on you.
And when the words of God prove your supposition per the thread title is not only false, but is blasphemous against the prophecy of God, your denial of Scripture proof merely compounds your offenses.

If there is no such thing as a rapture,a taking up, of God's Elect before his wrath befalls the world then there would be not a single word much less entire passages that describe that plan.

But there are.

What you will not accept,and you don't need to because God's truth outlives the skeptic, is this one absolute.
And that is,just because skeptics claim a teaching from God does not exist does not make a targeted teaching from God evaporate or lose authority.

You are fallible. God is not.

You don't believe there to be scripture support for the rapture prior to God's wrath upon the world in the end times .

OK.
So what?

You don't believe!

It's silly to try to get us to follow your error.
The Latin Vulgate proves you wrong. The Greek word for rapture exists in Scripture and proves you wrong.

The Old Testament shows God raptured whom he would as he intended. Enoch for example.

You don't believe.

OK.
So what?

You obviously did not read the Op. If you did, you would not be saying what you are saying. I believe in "a taking up, of God's Elect before his wrath befalls the world." But Scripture shows that ushers in the end.

 

[David in NJ]

I’m not upset with you I just know how you handle scripture so there’s no point in responding to all the errors in your post.

Well, if i mishandle the word of God just pinpoint the error and i will be Blessed.

Is not that what we should be doing for each other?

 

[IndianaRob]

Well, if i mishandle the word of God just pinpoint the error and i will be Blessed.

Is not that what we should be doing for each other?

Yes that’s what one would do when debating truth but you’ve already denied the truth in Enoch did not SEE his death yet he died.

 

[Biblepaige]

You obviously did not read the Op. If you did, you would not be saying what you are saying. I believe in "a taking up, of God's Elect before his wrath befalls the world." But Scripture shows that ushers in the end.

No, I read the OP. And the thread title is the synopsis.

 

[David in NJ]

Yes that’s what one would do when debating truth but you’ve already denied the truth in Enoch did not SEE his death yet he died.

i BELIEVE with you my Brother, on Enoch "not seeing death for God translated him" = 100% TRUTH my Brother in Jesus Christ