Where was Jesus between his death and resurrection?
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face2face
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face2face
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Ronald Nolette
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So you believe His spirit and soul as well as HIs body all died? Scripture to defend that?
1 Peter 3:18-19
King James Version
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
Gods inspired Word says much differently than you.
How could He be raised if He didn't exist? You said He didn't exist!
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Ronald David Bruno
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Paradise. He told the man next to him that "TODAY you will be with Me in Paradise".
Hades was divided into two realms separated by a great chasm. One realm, Paradise, for those of faith who would be greeted by OT saints. LUKE 16 explains these two realms. Paradise is now heaven after Jesus opened the doors. Btw, the story of the rich man and Lazarus was not a parable as some think. Parables never include real people who actually existed, like Abraham. Jesus would not create a fictionalized, abstract realm that did not exist to teach some moral lesson. His parables were always about common experiences that people could relate to and draw meaning out of. Lazarus was at "Abraham's bosom", meaning he probably had is his arm around him, comforting him as he spoke to the rich man who was in another location - "separated by a great chasm". The rich man had died, yet was conscious, very thirsty
and in torment. The
¹He begged for water and for someone to warn his brothers of this terrible place. No comfort or hope was given.
BTW, time does not stand still in the physical universe. Hades, the underworld, is inside the crust of the physical earth; yet Paradise was not a physical realm. Time is a physical dimension. It can be altered by speed and/or gravity. I think once God made the earth stop, but time went on ticking. Since heaven is spiritual, it is not confined to time and so a moment passes on to another moment, not identified by days, hours or minutes. John describes being taken up to heaven and estimates time that past. Itwas his perception - but who knows.
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Aunty Jane
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How much of the opinions expressed in this thread rely on the belief that humans have an immortal soul?
There is no such thing as an “immortal soul”……seek as you might, those two words are never found together in a single sentence in Scripture.
A “soul” in the Bible is a living, breathing, mortal creature…both humans and animals are called “souls”.
Souls rely on external means to keep living…..all need food, water and oxygen to exist. All have a multitude of ways to die, but death is the same for all “souls”….the “breath (spirit) of life” no longer sustains their organs and they cease to function, resulting in the death of that soul, (person or creature).
At Eccl 3:18-20…Solomon wrote….
”I also said in my heart about the sons of men that the true God will test them and show them that they are like animals, 19 for there is an outcome for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit. So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile. 20 All are going to the same place. They all come from the dust, and they all are returning to the dust.”
We die the same death as animals do….but that was not God’s intention in the beginning. The animal kingdom was to be in a constant cycle, with life and death programmed into them.
Humans OTOH, were the only creatures who were created to live forever (made in God’s image and likeness so that they would represent him here on this lovingly prepared earth, to take care of all that God had made)……death was not programmed into us, and hence when it happens, it feels so incredibly wrong. Grief and heartache follow the death of loved ones….sometimes for the rest of their lives.
The views expressed here also rely on the assumption that a “soul” and a “spirit” are the same thing….but they are two different words with two entirely different meanings.
“Souls” are mortal….only spirit beings can be immortal. But then again, the assumption is that “immortality“ and “everlasting life” are one and the same thing is an error…..because they too are different words with different meanings.
An immortal creature cannot die…..but a mortal creature, granted everlasting life, can “live forever” as long as they continue to uphold the conditions of their Creator for doing so. Adam and his wife had no ‘natural’ cause of death mentioned to them……Adam was told that death was the opposite of life…a ceasing to exist. (Gen 3:19) And disobedience was the only cause of death.
God had planted “the tree of life” in the garden so that “everlasting life” (not immortality) would be possible as long as they remained obedient…..we know that they didn’t remain obedient, and the consequences of their disobedience plague us to this day.
There is no such thing as an “immortal soul”……seek as you might, those two words are never found together in a single sentence in Scripture.
A “soul” in the Bible is a living, breathing, mortal creature…both humans and animals are called “souls”.
Souls rely on external means to keep living…..all need food, water and oxygen to exist. All have a multitude of ways to die, but death is the same for all “souls”….the “breath (spirit) of life” no longer sustains their organs and they cease to function, resulting in the death of that soul, (person or creature).
At Eccl 3:18-20…Solomon wrote….
”I also said in my heart about the sons of men that the true God will test them and show them that they are like animals, 19 for there is an outcome for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit. So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile. 20 All are going to the same place. They all come from the dust, and they all are returning to the dust.”
We die the same death as animals do….but that was not God’s intention in the beginning. The animal kingdom was to be in a constant cycle, with life and death programmed into them.
Humans OTOH, were the only creatures who were created to live forever (made in God’s image and likeness so that they would represent him here on this lovingly prepared earth, to take care of all that God had made)……death was not programmed into us, and hence when it happens, it feels so incredibly wrong. Grief and heartache follow the death of loved ones….sometimes for the rest of their lives.
The views expressed here also rely on the assumption that a “soul” and a “spirit” are the same thing….but they are two different words with two entirely different meanings.
“Souls” are mortal….only spirit beings can be immortal. But then again, the assumption is that “immortality“ and “everlasting life” are one and the same thing is an error…..because they too are different words with different meanings.
An immortal creature cannot die…..but a mortal creature, granted everlasting life, can “live forever” as long as they continue to uphold the conditions of their Creator for doing so. Adam and his wife had no ‘natural’ cause of death mentioned to them……Adam was told that death was the opposite of life…a ceasing to exist. (Gen 3:19) And disobedience was the only cause of death.
God had planted “the tree of life” in the garden so that “everlasting life” (not immortality) would be possible as long as they remained obedient…..we know that they didn’t remain obedient, and the consequences of their disobedience plague us to this day.
Aunty Jane
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So to answer the points in the OP…
There is no consciousness or activity in sheol/hades, so therefore what occurs was called “sleeping”.
When Jesus’ friend Lazarus died, Jesus said he was “sleeping” and that he was going to “awaken” him. (John 11:11-14) That is what resurrection is…an awakening or reanimating of a dead person…..a restoration of life, but not an immediate continuation of it. Where was Lazarus for the 4 days that he had been in his grave? If he had gone to a better place, why bring him back to this life only to die again later?
There is no “spirit” in man apart from his “breath”….so in the general resurrection of the dead, (that Jews were taught) they expected God to restore their lives right here on earth under the rulership of God’s Kingdom, as a re-establishment of what we lost in Eden…..they depended on their coming Messiah to lead them there. But they rejected him.
How many know that they are doing that…..believing that first lie?
Only the elect are called to spirit life in heaven, and as spirits, these ones can then “put on immortality” as they were promised.
From the point of view of the Jews, however, it is clear that “the bodies of the saints” were seen coming out of their tombs…..but since a large earthquake had occurred, it is more likely that their “bodies” were lifted out of their graves and exposed to people passing by the cemetery. This has happened in a number of countries, so it is not an unusual occurrence. It was these people who witnessed that, who went into the city to report it. Only one of the gospel accounts mentions it.
Sheol/ hades is the common grave of mankind. We all go there. (Eccl 9:5,6,10)
There is no consciousness or activity in sheol/hades, so therefore what occurs was called “sleeping”.
When Jesus’ friend Lazarus died, Jesus said he was “sleeping” and that he was going to “awaken” him. (John 11:11-14) That is what resurrection is…an awakening or reanimating of a dead person…..a restoration of life, but not an immediate continuation of it. Where was Lazarus for the 4 days that he had been in his grave? If he had gone to a better place, why bring him back to this life only to die again later?
There is no “spirit” in man apart from his “breath”….so in the general resurrection of the dead, (that Jews were taught) they expected God to restore their lives right here on earth under the rulership of God’s Kingdom, as a re-establishment of what we lost in Eden…..they depended on their coming Messiah to lead them there. But they rejected him.
Jesus went exactly where he said he would go after his death….he would be in the same kind of confinement as Jonah was in the belly of the fish. The mortal man who died in our place died the same death as Adam to pay the price of our redemption. He was to spend three days and nights in the heart of the earth….or in his grave. People were either buried or given a place in a carved tomb. We know that a kind man offered his own tomb to bury Jesus.….but for 3 days, Jesus did not go anywhere.
Yes…a place that the Jews knew was a place of complete inactivity and unconsciousness….a place where time did indeed stand still.
Yes, the “soul” that was Jesus gave up his “spirit” or “breath”…..he breathed his last, so that in his death, mankind had a basis to have their own lives restored. Those who believe in an immortal soul have to be creative in their interpretation of Scripture to perpetuate the first lie that satan told….”you surely will not die”.
How many know that they are doing that…..believing that first lie?
There is no suffering in hades….it is a place where the dead “sleep”…..unaware of the passage of time or the affairs of the world. (Eccl 9:5, 10) When the resurrection occurs in the future, for the majority of the the dead, they are called from their tombs, like Lazarus was, to a restoration of their earthly life. (John 5:28-29)
Only the elect are called to spirit life in heaven, and as spirits, these ones can then “put on immortality” as they were promised.
This is another ambiguous scripture given a variety of interpretations, colored by erroneous beliefs about the dead.
From the point of view of the Jews, however, it is clear that “the bodies of the saints” were seen coming out of their tombs…..but since a large earthquake had occurred, it is more likely that their “bodies” were lifted out of their graves and exposed to people passing by the cemetery. This has happened in a number of countries, so it is not an unusual occurrence. It was these people who witnessed that, who went into the city to report it. Only one of the gospel accounts mentions it.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Here is another isolated case where misinterpretation created the problem of relic worship In the apostate church later. This is a form of idolatry that is condemned in God’s word.
There is little more said about this event, so no more should be read into it than what is stated. It was a “one off” occurrence.
Who were those “spirits in prison”?
What does Peter say that you left out?….
”Christ died once for all time concerning sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, that he might lead you to God, he being put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the spirit. In this state also he went his way and preached to the spirits in prison, which had once been disobedient when the patience of God was waiting in Noah’s days, while the ark was being constructed, in which a few people, that is, eight souls, were carried safely through the water.”
Peter identified those spirits as the ones who were disobedient in Noah’s day….these were the disobedient angels who followed satan in rebellion, and who created the degradation of the human race at that time….God forced them back to the spirit realm where these were now put under restraint in a condition known as “Tartarus” often mistranslated as “hell”….but it is a condition specific to spirit beings.…akin to being put on a leash……restricted in a prison-like state of being cut off from God….no longer able to manifest themselves in the flesh.
After Christ’s resurrection Peter says of Jesus…
“He is at God’s right hand, for he went his way to heaven, and angels and authorities and powers were made subject to him.” (1 Peter 3:18-22)
How and why were angels and authorities made subject to him, if he holds the position that Christendom has given him? Were they not always subject to him?
These are the ones “dead in their trespasses”….since the human dead are in an unconscious state, there is no way to preach to them…..but those who are spiritually “dead” at present can be awakened by the truth of the gospel. That is the whole point of preaching to them.
Again you left out the the next 2 verses…
“For it says: “When he ascended on high he carried away captives; he gave gifts in men.” 9 Now what does the expression “he ascended” mean but that he also descended into the lower regions, that is, the earth? 10 The very one who descended is also the one who ascended far above all the heavens, so that he might give fullness to all things.”
Jesus came from heaven and “descended” to “the earth” to carry out his mission….the one who “descended” also “ascended” when he was resurrected by his God and Father. He was given a reward for his faithful obedience in completing his mission. (Phil 2:9-10)
Jews knew that ‘Sheol/hades was the place where the dead slept in an unconscious state. (Eccl 9:5,10) so if Jesus was in hades for the three days and nights that it states, where he was “in the heart of the earth“….he was preaching to no one. The preaching to “the spiritus in prison” took place after his resurrection, where he remained on earth until his return to heaven 40 days later. He stayed and “appeared“ to his disciples during that period, strengthening them for the troubled times ahead.
We should not assume what the Bible does not tell us. We should allow Scripture to tell us what it means by studying all that we know about the beliefs of the Jews as compared to the beliefs that Jesus taught……since he was Jewish and only taught from Jewish Scripture.…all that he taught should have been understandable to those Jews who heard him preach. The problem was, that the Pharisees had twisted the Scriptures all out of shape and taught people to believe them instead of the truth that Jesus was trying to teach the people. Christendom has done exactly the same thing…
History repeats because people never learn from the lessons of the past….
face2face
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It's only a matter of increasing your learning and understanding of how the words spirit and soul are used in the Word.
How about you start accepting the Lord ceases to exist and then read the Word with that in mind and context.
It's more likely that you will teach yourself rather than listen to me
Also, your 1 Peter quote is not what you make it - maybe consider the context there as well
F2F
face2face
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All mortal creatures exist Jack - they have a start and an end just as the Lord did.
F2F
face2face
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True indeed. That's Jesus and He warned us of the EVERLASTING fire where unbelievers will be TORMENTED FOREVER in fire! Everyone will live forever, but BILLIONS will burn in Hell forever and ever!
face2face
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Prove it. Jesus is God FYI. The Bible says so many times. I'm sorry you don't have a Savior.
face2face
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Of course. God sent Himself in the flesh.
Yes and He now lives, again.
John 2:19-21
19 Jesus answered and said to them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."
20 Then the Jews said, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?"
21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body.
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