To what does the APOSTASIA refer

[David in NJ]

He takes it personally any time his view is challenged. I was not making things personal at all. I was just showing how what he said about the day of the Lord doesn't agree with what scripture says about the day of the Lord. I don't know why anyone would come here to debate scripture if they can't handle disagreements and aren't prepared to defend their doctrine.

For any of us to make up our own story line that contradicts CLEAR Scripture that a child can understand, is SELF-WILL be done.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Believer's Protection/Security #1 - NEVER argue against the words of THREE Witnesses who are:
a.) the LORD Jesus Christ
b.) the Apostle Paul
c.) the Apostle John

I think Peter is pretty trustworthy, too, when it comes to end times doctrine.

As for Paul, though, I've seen a disturbing trend where some people disregard what he taught about end times doctrine as if he didn't have the full revelation and didn't really know what he was talking about in that area. Wow. He was inspired by the Holy Spirit, so if someone questions Paul's teachings they are actually questioning the Holy Spirit's understanding, which is obviously a bad idea.

 

[David in NJ]

1 Thessalonians 5:1-4 KJV
1) But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2) For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3) For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4) But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Much love!

Now you are on the Right PATH = if you BELIEVE and Receive

 

[David in NJ]

I think Peter is pretty trustworthy, too, when it comes to end times doctrine.

As for Paul, though, I've seen a disturbing trend where some people disregard what he taught about end times doctrine as if he didn't have the full revelation and didn't really know what he was talking about in that area. Wow. He was inspired by the Holy Spirit, so if someone questions Paul's teachings they are actually questioning the Holy Spirit's understanding which is obviously a bad idea.

The followers of pre-trib and the Judaizers are attempting to discredit the Apostle Paul because he, by the Holy Spirit,
declares that Jew & Gentile are One Body in Christ.

This COMPLETELY undermines pre-trib as well.

The Judaizers who are attempting to come to MESSIAH hate it because they MUST embrace Gentiles whom they despise.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The pre-trib fibbers and the Judaizers are attempting to discredit the Apostle Paul because he, by the Holy Spirit,
declares that Jew & Gentile are One Body in Christ.

This COMPLETELY undermines pre-trib as well.

The Judaizers who are attempting to come to MESSIAH hate it because they MUST embrace Gentiles whom they despise.

Yes, they disregard his teaching about that as well. He deserves more respect than that. He knew what he was talking about. But, some people think they understand the OT better than he did.

 

[David in NJ]

Yes, they disregard his teaching about that as well. He deserves more respect than that. He knew what he was talking about. But, some people think they understand the OT better than he did.

Unfortunately they are here trying to correct Scripture and see nothing wrong with that.

 

[KUWN]

They believe what Ice T tells them it means.

I knew it. You are exactly wrong. The vast majority of Pre Trib scholars disagree with Ice. I am just mystified that this is your answer.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I knew it. You are exactly wrong. The vast majority of Pre Trib scholars disagree with Ice. I am just mystified that this is your answer.

You only had mentioned pretribs, not pretrib scholars specifically. I would think that most pretribs (not just pretrib scholars) do agree with Ice's interpretation of 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

 

[KUWN]

You only had mentioned pretribs, not pretrib scholars specifically. I would think that most pretribs (not just pretrib scholars) do agree with Ice's interpretation of 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

Nope. You are not well read of your opponents. This is a childish, non-researched reply. I have lost respect for you and will not interact with you on future posts. That will hopefully make you happy.

 

[Johann]

You guys and your "gotcha questions". Do you recall I spoke of uncertainties and possible likelihoods? Anyway, I've gotten kind of tired of all this contrariness, it does get old.

No, you're being ridiculous. No, that doesn't make any sense. No, on and on, and does any one of you actually understand what I think? It doesn't seem like it.

Anyway, if I feel like dropping back in, you'll see me, otherwise, I'm dropping out from here.

Much love!

Same here-not edifying.
J.

 

[David in NJ]

Thank you for sharing your low opinion of me. You do me much disservice in doing so, but does that stop you? Apparently not. Is your opinion reflective of reality? Not in the least, as far as I'm concerned. Is it our call in Christian service to bad-mouth others? I don't think so.

The fact is, you have no clue about my relationship with God, and how tightly I hold to His Word. None whatsoever. Only that I disagree with you over certain non-essentional points in Scripture.

So for that, you label me for the world to see, "Hey everyone, this fellow is hard hearted, resisting against Scripture!"

Bravo! Well done!

You do understand, don't you, that your words actually show what is in your heart, not mine.

I'm curious . . . what do you think such words add to this discussion?

Much love!

You relationship with God is made quite CLEAR as you oppose His words = self-will instead of Thy will be done!
On this thread, you speak of your will to be done = "apostacy is the rapture"

TRUE humlility is in the heart of a man who submits to God's words of TRUTH, which you REJECT.

JESUS, PAUL & JOHN rebuke your stubbornness and false humility.

#1. JESUS - Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.
And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.
Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many.
And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.

#2. Apostle PAUL - Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

#3. Apostle JOHN - Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

If you had 'much love' you would go to the LORD and ask for forgiveness for opposing His words and attacking your brother who is pointing you back to His words = stone the messenger is status quo pharisee

What will it be marks? Continue insisting you know more even when the Apostles reprove you in their Writings?

 

[covenantee]

I knew it. You are exactly wrong. The vast majority of Pre Trib scholars disagree with Ice. I am just mystified that this is your answer.

They don't disagree with Ice's belief in a pretrib rapture.

You agree with Ice's false claim that Wycliffe believed in a pretrib rapture.

No mystery at all.

 

[covenantee]

You couldn't even answer such a simple question. So there ya' go.

Much love!

If you don't understand the answer, just leave it for those who do.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Nope. You are not well read of your opponents. This is a childish, non-researched reply. I have lost respect for you and will not interact with you on future posts. That will hopefully make you happy.

LOL. You say this despite not offering any proof to back up your claim. Weak. You expect to come here, make claims and don't allow them to be challenged. That is ridiculous. I don't know why some of you are even here. You somehow don't think debate is allowed on this forum. You are completely unprepared to defend your doctrine, but you blame those who disagree with you for your own shortcomings just because we point them out.

 

[marks]

You relationship with God is made quite CLEAR as you oppose His words = self-will instead of Thy will be done!
On this thread, you speak of your will to be done = "apostacy is the rapture"

TRUE humlility is in the heart of a man who submits to God's words of TRUTH, which you REJECT.

JESUS, PAUL & JOHN rebuke your stubbornness and false humility.

#1. JESUS - Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.
And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.
Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many.
And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.

#2. Apostle PAUL - Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

#3. Apostle JOHN - Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

If you had 'much love' you would go to the LORD and ask for forgiveness for opposing His words and attacking your brother who is pointing you back to His words = stone the messenger is status quo pharisee

What will it be marks? Continue insisting you know more even when the Apostles reprove you in their Writings?

The judgmentalism that arises in your ignorance of me is disturbing, and I plead with you to reconsider having such a mind towards another. I think it's even prudent to step away from such an exchange as it leads you to this. And I'm afraid for you that you will not be able to see what I'm speaking concerning, but I am hopeful to be proven wrong.

The contempt for others shown on this thread, not just by you, is anything but Christian.

Much love, in a real hope for something better!

 

[Ronald D Milam]

That can't be correct, though. The middle of the 70th week is the beginning of great tribulation. According to Matthew 24:29 and the 6th seal in Revelation 6, to name a few, the day of the Lord follows great tribulation not parallels it. We can even see this in the OT as well.

Wrong on both accounts, although brother Mark doesn't quite get the timing right himself, the 7th Trump brings the 3rd Woe, made up of the 7 Vials, but he knows the churches overall paths timing.

Yes, the tribulation does start via Matt. 29, but it is also the DOTL. It will last for 1260 days, the same as the Beasts reign of terror, but why? Because the Man of Sin/A.C./Beast is only allowed to rule over Israel for 1260 days, and he can not go forth until the asteroid (DOTL) hits in Rev. 8, the First Four Trumps. The Seals do nothing, I know its hard to wrap your mind around this fact, but Jesus is in heaven, taking the Seals off a Scroll in front of the Church who were rapture pre 70th week as seen in Rev. 4:4 and Rev. 5:9-10. The fact that the 7th Seal is over in Rev. 8 AFTER God gets the Jews to repent and flee Judea in Rev. 7. The 144,000 is a code, just like the 1/3 in Zechariah 13:8-9 is a ration, God was never going to tell Satan the actual number ahead of time. The first 5 Seals are Jesus showing He's about to release His Wrath on mankind and a part of that wrath is the Beast, just like the other 6 Beasts were meant to get Israel to repent. So, Jesus foretells what is ahead during the Beasts 42 month (soon to come) rein of terror in Seals 1-5.

Then in Seal 6 Jesus foretells about God's Wrath in general, its an Asteroid Impact we now know that brings FIRES and Poison FALLOUT to fresh waters/rivers and finally DARKNESS via all the smoke. So, when does it happen? Well Rev. 7 tells you that Gid says HOLD UP the Four Winds (Judgment) until He gets the Jews SEALED (with the Holy Spirit via the 5 million or 1/3 who repent), HURT NOT the Earth, Sea nor Trees until we have SEALED THEM........well what hurts the Earth, Sea and Trees? Read Rev. 8, its right there, you guys just will not accept these truths, because you have a pre set opinion that is in error.

The Asteroid in Rev. 8 is where God's Wrath starts, and He only allows the A.C. to go forth conquering after this Asteroid hits BUT WHY? So Israel can hear the Two-witnesses (The 1335 Blessing) and repent. Then the False Prophet (a Jewish High Priest like unto Jason under Antiochus Epiphanes) will betray his people at the 1290 just like Jason (real name Yeshua) and he will do so 30 days before the DOTL/Beast goes forth. This will give the 5 million Jews who repented 30 days to flee Judea unto the Petra/Bozrah area. Each number is that many days unto ALL THESE WONDERS END.......at the 2nd Coming of Jesus. That's why the 1335 comes first AND why the Two-witnesses die before the Beast dies. I imagine this is way over your head, especially to those who have no desire to be corrected. I had different ideas for 30 years but I always allow myself to be corrected by the holy spirit.

The DOTL and the Beasts 42 months and the Greatest Ever Tribulation ALL THREE PARALLEL.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

And where does Matthew 24:29 undeniably place the day of the Lord? Here of course---Immediately after the tribulation of those days

You have no grasp of this at all. The Matt. 24:29 verse is about the Sun & Moon going dark after the Tribulation BEGINS......Trumps 1, 2 and 3 are all ONE EVENT and Asteroid Impact. Then the fires cause the Sun and Moon do go dark IMMEDIALY AFTER the impact of this asteroid, verse 30 happens 1260 days later. Just like in Zech. 14:1-2 we see the DOTL arrives, then in vs. 2 we see Jerusalem is ravaged/sacked. Then VERSE 3 JUMPS 1260 days and talks about Jesus landing in the Mt. of Olives and splitting it into. What you guys do not get about prophesy is if ever minute detail was given the bible would have to be as big as the Library of Alexandria before it burnt down. You have yo have JUMP GAPS when speaking about prophesy.

It can't get any clearer. The DOTL is after great tribulation not during it.

It's AFTER the Tribulation BEGINS via the Asteroid, the trouble last 1260 days SEE Dan. 12:7 it tells us that it lasts exactly 1260 days. Lets do it in modern English.

Immediately after the Tribulation of those days start, the Sun and Moon will turn dark. What's so hard to understand about that? Your problem brother is YOU SEE WORDS, not the BIG PICTUIRE, the holy spirit teaches us Here a little, there a little, you can not see the forest for the trees. Simple words cloud your whole understanding. Different languages translated are challenging at times, but you problem is you get the cart before the horse ad refuse to listen to men like me called unto prophecy for 40 years.

and guess what? No way is immediately after the tribulation of those days meaning during those tribulation of days. In this case, the tribulation of those days meaning great tribulation. After does not mean during, it means after. The DOTL is immediately after great tribulation. There is no denying it. Therefore, Scripture nor Jesus is wrong. Only someone that would deny what the Scriptures say and what Jesus said, is wrong, not them.

You can not even understand that AFTER actually means AFTER. I have a Substack Blog where I explain every book in Revelation and Daniel 11 & 12, every verse, who the player are and what the 1260, 1290 and 1335 means. The Rapture of the Church is pre 70th week. Anyone who says different, I already know they do not understand Eschatology at all, so I pretty much discount every thing they tell me about eschatology.

 

[David in NJ]

The judgmentalism that arises in your ignorance of me is disturbing, and I plead with you to reconsider having such a mind towards another. I think it's even prudent to step away from such an exchange as it leads you to this. And I'm afraid for you that you will not be able to see what I'm speaking concerning, but I am hopeful to be proven wrong.

The contempt for others shown on this thread, not just by you, is anything but Christian.

Much love, in a real hope for something better!

Wise Brothers in Christ have been saying this to you:
"Therefore, Scripture nor Jesus is wrong. Only someone that would deny what the Scriptures say and what Jesus said, is wrong, not them."

JESUS says to you: "In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established"

THREE Faithful Witnesses say this to you:

#1. JESUS - Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.
And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.
Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many.
And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.

#2. Apostle PAUL - Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

#3. Apostle JOHN - Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

If you had 'much love' you would go to the LORD and ask for forgiveness for opposing His words and attacking your brother(s) who are pointing you back to His words = throwing stones at the messengers is status quo pharisee

@marks, you only have two choices

A.) "God's will be done on earth as it is in Heaven"

b.) @marks will be done on earth as it is on earth

 

[Johann]

Wise Brothers in Christ have been saying this to you:
"Therefore, Scripture nor Jesus is wrong. Only someone that would deny what the Scriptures say and what Jesus said, is wrong, not them."

JESUS says to you: "In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established"

THREE Faithful Witnesses say this to you:

#1. JESUS - Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.
And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.
Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many.
And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.

#2. Apostle PAUL - Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

#3. Apostle JOHN - Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

If you had 'much love' you would go to the LORD and ask for forgiveness for opposing His words and attacking your brother(s) who are pointing you back to His words = throwing stones at the messengers is status quo pharisee

@marks, you only have two choices

A.) "God's will be done on earth as it is in Heaven"

b.) @marks will be done on earth as it is on earth

Simply can't believe this-

 

[David in NJ]

Simply can't believe this-

The judgmentalism that arises in your ignorance of me is disturbing, and I plead with you to reconsider having such a mind towards another. I think it's even prudent to step away from such an exchange as it leads you to this. And I'm afraid for you that you will not be able to see what I'm speaking concerning, but I am hopeful to be proven wrong.

The contempt for others shown on this thread, not just by you, is anything but Christian.