To what does the APOSTASIA refer

[David in NJ]

would like to show you something behind the scenes with the following observation. The debate of the meaning of APOSTASIA in 2 Thes 2:3 must take into consideration 1 Tim 4:1 where Paul uses a verb, not a noun as in 2 Thes 2:3. Here are both verses as Paul wrote them:
2 Thes 2:3
μή τις ὑμᾶς ἐξαπατήσῃ κατὰ μηδένα τρόπον· ὅτι ἐὰν μὴ ἔλθῃ ἡ ἀποστασία πρῶτον καὶ ἀποκαλυφθῇ ὁ ἄνθρωπος τῆς ἀνομίας, ὁ υἱὸς τῆς ἀπωλείας,
1 Tim 4:1
Τὸ δὲ πνεῦμα ῥητῶς λέγει ὅτι ἐν ὑστέροις καιροῖς ἀποστήσονταί τινες τῆς πίστεως,

You will note that Paul uses the verb ἀποστήσονταί when referring unambiguously to a departure from the faith. Note also that the modifier "from the faith" is needed because the verb by itself does not denote apostasy from the faith.

Note also that in 2 Thes 2:3 the articular noun ἡ ἀποστασία is used. Had Paul wanted to use a grammatical structure and lexical item to talk about the departing from the faith, he would have used the verb as he did in 1 Tim 4. What must be pointed out is that the APOSTASIA in 2 Thes 2:3 has to be an event, not a process. If this is not understood, you will be confused about what this APOSTASIA is. The APOSTASIA and the man of lawlessness are both instantaneous events. In fact, one thing the APOSTASIA is not is a progressive happening. For example, Jude 3,4 tell of a departure from the faith, it happens over time, which would not be an event that is recognizable when it occurs.

So, 2 Thes 2:3 the APOSTASIA is a point in time event that is recognizable. Had Paul wanted to indicate it was a departure from the faith, he would have used the verb, not the noun.


It is for this reason, along with other important points, that ἡ ἀποστασία is a direct reference to the Pre-Trib Rapture. The importance of what was stated in this brief letter is to show that the APOSTASIA is an event, not something in progress, and that Paul uses the verb in 1 Tim 4:1.
I would be interested in other Pre-Tribbers thoughts on this.

Title of Today's Poem: pre-trib, pre-fib, ad lib


Hey everyone, listen to me
for I have a doctorate of divinity

Come sit at my feet
because you know it will be neat
you're not as smart as me
i have a doctorate of divinity

pre-trib, pre-trib watch the words change
from truth to a lie, oh how strange
that you would believe me
simply because i have a doctorate of divinity

Now pad my pockets as i am needy
of all your money, let's not be greedy
after all, i am much smarter then the minority
simply because i have a doctorate of divinity

do not scowl at my pre-fib lie
or you'll be 'left-behind' as i deny
Jesus said you will have tranquility
only if you believe me
simply because i have a doctorate of divinity

 

[David in NJ]

I am right, you are wrong,
I've held the truth all along.
My doctrines stand on holy ground,
Yours, a shaky, fleeting sound.

I’ve studied hard, I’ve read it well,
My view is clear, it rings the bell.
You’ve missed the mark, lost your way,
Misreading words from page to page.

The verses bend beneath my hand,
In my beliefs, I firmly stand.
But yours? Confusion, error deep,
A thoughtless drift, a wayward leap.

Yet pause, reflect, for even so,
We both seek truths we barely know.
Could certainty, with edges bright,
Shine blinding beams, distort the light?

Perhaps in this, our prideful fight,
We both are wrong—and none are right.

J.

i love your poem Johann

i have one as well in post 121

 

[Johann]

Title of Today's Poem: pre-trib, pre-fib, ad lib


Hey everyone, listen to me
for I have a doctorate of divinity

Come sit at my feet
because you know it will be neat
you're not as smart as me
i have a doctorate of divinity

pre-trib, pre-trib watch the words change
from truth to a lie, oh how strange
that you would believe me
simply because i have a doctorate of divinity

Now pad my pockets as i am needy
of all your money, let's not be greedy
after all, i am much smarter then the minority
simply because i have a doctorate of divinity

do not scowl at my pre-fib lie
or you'll be 'left-behind' as i deny
Jesus said you will have tranquility
only if you believe me
simply because i have a doctorate of divinity

Ditto.
Shalom to you and family
Johann.

 

[Johann]

i love your poem Johann

i have one as well in post 121

Think I will add guitar chords to your poem David-A minor.
Johann.

 

[David in NJ]

Think I will add guitar chords to your poem David-A minor.
Johann.

Love you Brother

We may have opposing views on pre-trib

Yet, we are permanently joined at 'the hip' in CHRIST JESUS our LORD

Love you my Brother in Christ

 

[Johann]

Love you Brother

We may have opposing views on pre-trib

Yet, we are permanently joined at 'the hip' in CHRIST JESUS our LORD

Love you my Brother in Christ

Always and love you too my brother IN Christ Jesus our Lord and Savior.
Johann.

 

[David in NJ]

Always and love you too my brother IN Christ Jesus our Lord and Savior.
Johann.

Gotta go - work calls

BIG SHALOM to ALL who call on the precious Name of Adonai YAHshua HaMashiach

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I never expected that we agree. I've given my thoughts on this, recognizing that we have some noteable differences in our foundations for understanding. There's no need we try to convince each other on this point.

I understand. I was just trying to bring up a point that I think should be focused on just as much as the meaning of the word apostasia in order to determine what Paul is talking about in that passage.

Can you just answer one question, though? What do you think would be the reason that Paul mentioned the rapture in 2 Thess 2:1 if none of the rest of the chapter has anything to do with the rapture?

I don't think our views on this will have anything to do with our common faith.

No, it doesn't determine if we are Christians or not, certainly. I don't know if you have noticed, but there are some people here who act as if having the correct end times doctrine is a determining factor in salvation. But, that's obviously not true.

 

[marks]

Can you just answer one question, though? What do you think would be the reason that Paul mentioned the rapture in 2 Thess 2:1 if none of the rest of the chapter has anything to do with the rapture?

It's the starting point for his teaching/prophecy of what will be happening at the end of the age.

(following is a loose paraphrase for illustration purposes, not meant to be read as a quotation from any particular translation)

Don't be alarmed about our gathering to Jesus, this isn't the Day of the Lord, that day of wrath and darkness. That won't come but the apostasia come first and the man of sin be revealed. Hes' the one who opposes God and exalts himself over God. You remember I told you this, right? And you know what's holding him back now, right?

And he goes on, about the restraining of the mystery of lawlessness, and goes on to talk about the man of sin.

I don't see any issues with the flow of information in this chapter. Paul addressed the original concern, and went on to speak more on the man of sin, and what will happen.

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

It's the starting point for his teaching/prophecy of what will be happening at the end of the age.

"Don't be alarmed about our gathering to Jesus, this isn't the Day of the Lord, that day of wrath and darkness. That won't come but the apostasia come first and the man of sin be revealed. Hes' the one who opposes God and exalts himself over God. You remember I told you this, right? And you know what's holding him back now, right?

And he goes on, about the restraining of the mystery of lawlessness, and goes on to talk about the man of sin.

I don't see any issues with the flow of information in this chapter. Paul addressed the original concern, and went on to speak more on the man of sin, and what will happen.

Much love!

God has said it, beginning in Genesis, then in the prophets, then the WORD became flesh and said it and also His Apostles.

This is what THEY said/say in one sentence:
You cannot have 'the man of sin' until you FIRST have the "apostacy".

 

[marks]

No brother, the Day of the Lord points to the middle of the 70th week Wrath of God. Let me put it down in plain modern English, then I will translate the KJV.

I don't recall making any statement about when the Day of the LORD is, could you refresh me? I'd like to see the context of what I must have said.

Reading through your post, it seems you and have very similar views.

Much love!

 

[IndianaRob]

God has said it, beginning in Genesis, then in the prophets, then the WORD became flesh and said it and also His Apostles.

This is what THEY said/say in one sentence:
You cannot have 'the man of sin' until you FIRST have the "apostacy".

Judas was a son of perdition, do you think that might be a clue as to what the man of sin is?

 

[Davidpt]

You cannot have 'the man of sin' until you FIRST have the "apostacy".

Unless both are one and the same. I tend to think they might be. IOW, the man of sin equals those that fall away.

 

[KUWN]

It's the starting point for his teaching/prophecy of what will be happening at the end of the age.

"Don't be alarmed about our gathering to Jesus, this isn't the Day of the Lord, that day of wrath and darkness. That won't come but the apostasia come first and the man of sin be revealed. Hes' the one who opposes God and exalts himself over God. You remember I told you this, right? And you know what's holding him back now, right?

And he goes on, about the restraining of the mystery of lawlessness, and goes on to talk about the man of sin.

I don't see any issues with the flow of information in this chapter. Paul addressed the original concern, and went on to speak more on the man of sin, and what will happen.

Much love!

This is a darn good question:

"Can you just answer one question, though? What do you think would be the reason that Paul mentioned the rapture in 2 Thess 2:1 if none of the rest of the chapter has anything to do with the rapture?"

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It's the starting point for his teaching/prophecy of what will be happening at the end of the age.

"Don't be alarmed about our gathering to Jesus, this isn't the Day of the Lord, that day of wrath and darkness. That won't come but the apostasia come first and the man of sin be revealed. Hes' the one who opposes God and exalts himself over God. You remember I told you this, right? And you know what's holding him back now, right?

And he goes on, about the restraining of the mystery of lawlessness, and goes on to talk about the man of sin.

I don't see any issues with the flow of information in this chapter. Paul addressed the original concern, and went on to speak more on the man of sin, and what will happen.

Much love!

No offense, but this response is far less than convincing. As I see it, in your view Paul brought up the rapture in verse 1 for no real reason and then proceeded to change the subject in the very next verse to a different event. I don't think that makes any sense. It's clear to me that he mentioned "His coming and our being gathered to Him" in verse 1 because he had some things to say related to that in the verses that followed it.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Unless both are one and the same. I tend to think they might be. IOW, the man of sin equals those that fall away.

Agreed. In my view it's not talking about an individual man of sin, but rather to sinful man in general or to the ones who fall away in particular. I don't believe "the man of sin" is an individual any more than I believe "the man of God" is an individual in this passage:

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

 

[David in NJ]

Unless both are one and the same. I tend to think they might be. IOW, the man of sin equals those that fall away.

Let us look at from Scripture:

JESUS is the Head of His Body
we who belong to Christ are His Body

Every Governing Body MUST have a head attached to it.

Antichrist/man of sin will be the the Head of the billions of little antichrists running around today.

JESUS, the Apostle Paul and the Apostle John said it LOUD & CLEAR - 1 John 2:18

Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

 

[marks]

No offense, but this response is far less than convincing.

I have no expectation of convincing you, and I'm not trying to. I'm just sharing my ideas, and reading yours.

But I never said for no reason, you are attributing that to me, but what I said was that Paul was addressing their concerns.

your view Paul brought up the rapture in verse 1 for no real reason

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

This is a darn good question:

"Can you just answer one question, though? What do you think would be the reason that Paul mentioned the rapture in 2 Thess 2:1 if none of the rest of the chapter has anything to do with the rapture?"

EXCELLENT

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Title of Today's Poem: pre-trib, pre-fib, ad lib


Hey everyone, listen to me
for I have a doctorate of divinity

Come sit at my feet
because you know it will be neat
you're not as smart as me
i have a doctorate of divinity

pre-trib, pre-trib watch the words change
from truth to a lie, oh how strange
that you would believe me
simply because i have a doctorate of divinity

Now pad my pockets as i am needy
of all your money, let's not be greedy
after all, i am much smarter then the minority
simply because i have a doctorate of divinity

do not scowl at my pre-fib lie
or you'll be 'left-behind' as i deny
Jesus said you will have tranquility
only if you believe me
simply because i have a doctorate of divinity

I have a poem, too.

Roses are red
Violets are blue
The pretrib doctrine
Is surely not true