Some key points pertaining to the parable per Luke 19:11-27.

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J

Johann

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Sounds rather scholarly.
Brother-its really not my problem if some don't want to dig into the Scriptures.
We are to STUDY to show ourselves--?
There is no time to be lazy in what we have, epignosis, 18 inches down into the Lev/heart.

Act 17:11 The Jews there were better disposed than those in Thessalonica, for they welcomed the message with all eagerness and carried on a daily study of the Scriptures to see if Paul's message was true.
Act 17:12 Many of them came to believe, and not a few distinguished Greek women and men.

Act 17:11 But these Bereans were more noble-minded than the Thessalonians. The Berean Yehudim received the dvar Hashem with all readiness, yom yom (daily) making a chazora (review) and examining and horiva over (analyzing) the Kitvei HaKodesh, to see if these things might be so. [Dt 29:29]
Act 17:12 Therefore, many of them became Messianic Jews, and also of the chashuve Yevanim, not a few nashim and anashim came to emunah.


Word Study on “approved” – Strong says the Greek word “approved” (δόκιμος) (G1384) means, “acceptable, approved.”
Comments - This approval requires the testing of faith and the enduring through that test to be approved as true, genuine (Isa_48:10, Zec_13:9).

Isa_48:10, “Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.”

Zec_13:9, “And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.”

2Co_5:9 is close to giving an overall meaning of 2Ti_2:15.

2Co_5:9, “Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.”
It requires endurance in hard times. Many people are not going to do this, i.e., meet God’s standard, even though they are mindful of the Lord (Mat_7:22-23).

Mat_7:22-23, “Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”

Thus, 2Co_13:5, “Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?”

Testing times in life:
Job_23:10, “But he knoweth the way that I take: when he hath tried me, I shall come forth as gold.”

Psa_66:10, “For thou, O God, hast proved us: thou hast tried us, as silver is tried.”

Pro_17:3, “The fining pot is for silver, and the furnace for gold: but the LORD trieth the hearts.”

Jas_1:3, “Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.”

1Pe_1:6-7, “Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:”

Only faith pleases God Almighty. This is what brings His approval.
Heb_11:6, “But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.”

The info is free-gratis and many reject it.
Not being facetious with you.
J.
 
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Davidpt

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The kingdom is wherever the king resides. Thus, Jesus preached "The kingdom of God is at hand." and he also told the Pharisees, "the kingdom of God is among you" indicating himself. Even during his ministry the kingdom of God was at hand and present with Jesus and his followers as you rightly point out.

Knowing this, we need to explain two of his teachings: "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven," and Jesus' teaching that he must go away to receive his kingdom. As you point out, even during Jesus' earthly ministry, his followers were being transferred from the domain of darkness into his kingdom of light.

So then, why did Jesus tell his disciples that he must go away to receive a kingdom? Might he receive another, different kind of kingdom? We must take that question seriously and allow Jesus' parable to inform us that the picture we inherited from Evangelicalism might be wrong or incomplete. Yes?

Even while Jesus was ruling over a kingdom of light, a kingdom that included himself and his followers, did he go to heaven to receive another kingdom? If so, what will that kingdom be like?

Excellent points you raised. Def worth looking into further.
 
J

Johann

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The kingdom is wherever the king resides. Thus, Jesus preached "The kingdom of God is at hand." and he also told the Pharisees, "the kingdom of God is among you" indicating himself. Even during his ministry the kingdom of God was at hand and present with Jesus and his followers as you rightly point out.

Knowing this, we need to explain two of his teachings: "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven," and Jesus' teaching that he must go away to receive his kingdom. As you point out, even during Jesus' earthly ministry, his followers were being transferred from the domain of darkness into his kingdom of light.

So then, why did Jesus tell his disciples that he must go away to receive a kingdom? Might he receive another, different kind of kingdom? We must take that question seriously and allow Jesus' parable to inform us that the picture we inherited from Evangelicalism might be wrong or incomplete. Yes?

Even while Jesus was ruling over a kingdom of light, a kingdom that included himself and his followers, did he go to heaven to receive another kingdom? If so, what will that kingdom be like?
I believe I have answered this already so no need for me to repeat myself.
J.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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It also says that he will reward his faithful followers when he returns. In other words, the kingdom he will receive will not be realized until he comes back.
What does that mean for it to not be realized? Do you think the kingdom His followers are in now is not real?

Colossians 1:12 and giving joyful thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of his holy people in the kingdom of light. 13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,

Jesus has been granted all authority in heaven and on earth. However, when he returns, he will fulfill our prayer "Thy kingdom come ON EARTH as it is in heaven." This prayer has not yet been fulfilled.
You do understand that Amils believe that the kingdom will come in its fullness on the eternal new (renewed) earth when He comes, right? But, He will deliver the kingdom He has been reigning over since His resurrection to the Father when He comes (1 Cor 15:22-24). At the end of this temporal age, it will be the case that "the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father" (Matt 13:40-43). So, it's not an earthly kingdom that He will reign over that will be manifested when He comes, it's the eternal new heavens and new earth that the Father will rule over for eternity with His Son at His side.
 

Davidpt

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If the Kingdom of God is on this earth when God sends down fire from heaven to utterly burn up everything on the earth with every living inhabitant, how could that which is physical be exempt from the fiery wrath of God? That's not how eternal/everlasting/forever is defined. Where in Scripture can you prove the Kingdom of God that shall be when Christ comes again begins with one thousand literal years since the seventh angel sounds when Christ comes again "that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets." ???

I admit, what you bring up per the 7th trump does appear to be problematic for Premil. Not so much the 'there being time no more' part but the part about the mystery of God being finished. Can it be finished if there is still another 1000 years that follow? I don't know. I guess I need to think on that some more. But not that I was never aware of it to begin with. I just haven't thought that much about it, I guess. Or maybe there are some Premils who might have a solution for that, and maybe they will chime in? Maybe @CadyandZoe has some thoughts on that that he might be willing to share?
 

Spiritual Israelite

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We? You mean there is more than just you that argue against it? It's even worse than I imagined, because I already realized you argue against it. But I was kind of hoping you were the only person on the planet that did. That way there is only one person to try and convince they are wrong about that rather than having to try and convince numerous persons they are wrong about that. But then again, the more I think about it, there is also full preterists to factor in. I guess their position would be the same as yours. And for all I know at this point, you may even be a full preterist yourself. Maybe that explains some of it? I don't know?
He is basically a full preterist even if not a typical one because he denies the future bodily return of Jesus and the future mass bodily resurrection of the dead.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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I admit, what you bring up per the 7th trump does appear to be problematic for Premil. Not so much the 'there being time no more' part but the part about the mystery of God being finished. Can it be finished if there is still another 1000 years that follow? I don't know. I guess I need to think on that some more. But not that I was never aware of it to begin with.
Consider that the 7th trumpet also signals "the time of the dead, that they should be judged".

Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

When are the dead judged? After the thousand years.

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

I just haven't thought that much about it, I guess. Or maybe there are some Premils who might have a solution for that, and maybe they will chime in? Maybe @CadyandZoe has some thoughts on that that he might be willing to share?
You are looking for help from the guy who denies the deity of Christ? That doesn't seem like a good idea.
 
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rwb

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I admit, what you bring up per the 7th trump does appear to be problematic for Premil. Not so much the 'there being time no more' part but the part about the mystery of God being finished. Can it be finished if there is still another 1000 years that follow? I don't know. I guess I need to think on that some more. But not that I was never aware of it to begin with. I just haven't thought that much about it, I guess. Or maybe there are some Premils who might have a solution for that, and maybe they will chime in? Maybe @CadyandZoe has some thoughts on that that he might be willing to share?

Be careful thinking you will get true biblical understanding from those with a bias to prove!

Here are a few verses that seem to be saying the mystery that had not been known in ages past, that has now been made known through Christ is that the Kingdom of God will be complete when every Gentile that shall be saved has heard the Gospel proclaimed in the power of the Holy Spirit, and believe on Christ for everlasting life. IOW the mystery fulfilled when the Kingdom of God is complete with Jews of faith as well as Gentiles of faith together. Then time given man whereby they must be saved, shall be no longer.

Romans 11:25 (KJV) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Romans 16:25-27 (KJV) Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen. Written to the Romans from Corinthus, and sent by Phebe servant of the church at Cenchrea.

Ephesians 3:3-6 (KJV) How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Colossians 1:26-27 (KJV) Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
 

CadyandZoe

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What does that mean for it to not be realized? Do you think the kingdom His followers are in now is not real?
We are attempting to make sense of Jesus' parable, in which he implied that he needed to go away to receive a kingdom and emphasized what his followers must do while he was away. His followers will be rewarded when he returns to rule over his kingdom. Question: Why does Jesus wait until his return to reward his followers? What changes between his time in heaven and his return to earth?

You do understand that Amils believe that the kingdom will come in its fullness on the eternal new (renewed) earth when He comes, right?
What does "fulness" look like?
But, He will deliver the kingdom He has been reigning over since His resurrection to the Father when He comes (1 Cor 15:22-24).
I have a different take on that passage. Question: Given that Jesus has been granted all authority, why does Paul talk about Jesus bringing his enemies under subjection? Here, Paul seems to distinguish between 1) being granted authority and 2) putting his enemies under his feet. The two idea are related but distinctly different. If I understand the Amil position correctly, it leaves no time for the subjugation of enemies.

1 Corinthians 15:24-28
24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

The Premil position postulates a thousand-year period during which Jesus does whatever is necessary to accomplish his mission to bring all of his enemies under his feet. While Jesus has already been granted all authority, there is more work to be done in order to subjugate all of his enemies.
 
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tailgator

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Luke 17:21 (KJV) Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

John 3:3 (KJV) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see [know] the kingdom of God.

John 3:5 (KJV)
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

John 3:6-7 (KJV) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spiri
t. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

The Kingdom of God that Christ came with is NOT a physical Kingdom, it is a spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven. We do not enter into the Kingdom physically, we enter it spiritually, through Christ's Spirit in us when we are born again of the Spirit. This is the Kingdom that is not now of this world, but shall come down from heaven when the seventh trumpet sounds that time given this earth whereby man must be born again, shall be no longer.

Revelation 10:5-7 (KJV) And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
I understand what receiving the holy spirit means.It came inside of me Aug 31,1998.

But I also understand what kingdom.of this world is given to Christ at his coming at the 7th trump.As I said a couple times in this thread already that I would have to travel east to get to that kingdom.
Other people will have to travel west to get to the kingdom of heaven.



Mathew 8:11
I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.


Which direction will you travel to take your place at the feast in the kingdom of heaven,east or west?


Everyone else I've asked this question have not answered.Apparently ,they do not know where the kingdom of heaven will be and are not planning to go.
 

CadyandZoe

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If the Kingdom of God is on this earth when God sends down fire from heaven to utterly burn up everything on the earth with every living inhabitant, how could that which is physical be exempt from the fiery wrath of God? That's not how eternal/everlasting/forever is defined. Where in Scripture can you prove the Kingdom of God that shall be when Christ comes again begins with one thousand literal years since the seventh angel sounds when Christ comes again "that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets." ???
What is the mystery of God and how will it be "finished" or "completed?"
 
J

Johann

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I understand what receiving the holy spirit means.It came inside of me Aug 31,1998.

But I also understand what kingdom.of this world is given to Christ at his coming at the 7th trump.As I said a couple times in this thread already that I would have to travel east to get to that kingdom.
Other people will have to travel west to get to the kingdom of heaven.



Mathew 8:11
I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.


Which direction will you travel to take your place at the feast in the kingdom of heaven,east or west?


Everyone else I've asked this question have not answered.Apparently ,they do not know where the kingdom of heaven will be and are not planning to go.
What does it matter which direction?!
J.
 

CadyandZoe

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I understand what receiving the holy spirit means.It came inside of me Aug 31,1998.

But I also understand what kingdom.of this world is given to Christ at his coming at the 7th trump.As I said a couple times in this thread already that I would have to travel east to get to that kingdom.
Other people will have to travel west to get to the kingdom of heaven.



Mathew 8:11
I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.


Which direction will you travel to take your place at the feast in the kingdom of heaven,east or west?


Everyone else I've asked this question have not answered.Apparently ,they do not know where the kingdom of heaven will be and are not planning to go.
I think you are on to something.

If the world ends and is destroyed at the Seventh Trumpet, how do the kingdoms of the world become the kingdoms of the Lord? Don't the kingdoms need to exist for Jesus to possess them?

Right? :) I agree with you.
 

tailgator

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What does it matter which direction?!
J.
Because you would need to know where it is to go there.

Mathew 8:11
I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.



If you don't know where the kingdom of heaven will be,then you don't know if you would be traveling east or west as Jesus said.
 
J

Johann

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Because you would need to know where it is to go there.

Mathew 8:11
I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.



If you don't know where the kingdom of heaven will be,then you don't know if you would be traveling east or west as Jesus said.
This is utterly absurd!
J.
 

tailgator

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I think you are on to something.

If the world ends and is destroyed at the Seventh Trumpet, how do the kingdoms of the world become the kingdoms of the Lord? Don't the kingdoms need to exist for Jesus to possess them?

Right? :) I agree with you.

The world is not destroyed.
It's the kingdom that is promised to Christ that is consumed in fire.If you have a saviour then you can walk through a furnace.If not ,then you would be consumed.

Mathew 13:41
The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.


And if you want to know what that kingdom is .It's where the beast is at this time.The kingdom is taken away from the beast and is consumed.Then the kingdom is given to the saints .This is the everlasting kingdom.

Daniel 7
24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.




Like Ezekiel said in Ezekiel 38

"A land recovered from war."The land itself will be healed and Israel shall dwell there.
 

tailgator

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This is utterly absurd!
J.
Only to someone who doesn't know where the kingdom of heaven will be.I myself would like to travel east to the kingdom of heaven and take my place at the feast as Jesus said.


Mathew 8:11
I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.
 

IndianaRob

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We? You mean there is more than just you that argue against it? It's even worse than I imagined, because I already realized you argue against it. But I was kind of hoping you were the only person on the planet that did. That way there is only one person to try and convince they are wrong about that rather than having to try and convince numerous persons they are wrong about that. But then again, the more I think about it, there is also full preterists to factor in. I guess their position would be the same as yours. And for all I know at this point, you may even be a full preterist yourself. Maybe that explains some of it? I don't know?
It would be really easy to convince me I’m wrong, just show me where Jesus said his kingdom would be a physical kingdom that you can see. That’s all I need.
 
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