Some key points pertaining to the parable per Luke 19:11-27.

[Spiritual Israelite]

What do you mean "some"?

We need to first of all realize that who God really is. Hebrews 12:29 tells us: “For our God is a consuming fire.” When He comes in majesty and glory no one left behind is going to escape His wrath. The coming of the Lord will be fiery and climactic. Jesus is returning in flaming fire. There will be no survivors. The evidence for this is overwhelming.

2 Samuel 22:9 states: "There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it."

Job 41:20-21 explains: "Out of his nostrils goeth smoke, as out of a seething pot or caldron. His breath kindleth coals, and a flame goeth out of his mouth."

Psalm 18:7-8 instructs: "the earth shook and trembled; the foundations also of the hills moved and were shaken, because he was wroth. There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it."

Psalm 68: 1-3 declares, "Let God arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him. As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God. But let the righteous be glad; let them rejoice before God: yea, let them exceedingly rejoice.”

Psalm 97:3-5 testifies, “A fire goeth before him, and burneth up his enemies round about. His lightnings enlightened the world: the earth saw, and trembled. The hills melted like wax at the presence of the LORD, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.”

Isaiah 11:4-5 records: "But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins."

Isaiah 13:9 says, “Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.”

Isaiah 30:33: "For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it."

Isaiah 33:13-17 warns us: “Hear, ye that are far off, what I have done; and, ye that are near, acknowledge my might.The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?” He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil; He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall besure. Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty: they shall behold the land that is very far off.

Isaiah 66:15-17: “For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many. They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.”

Joel 2:1-3 says, “for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand; A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations. A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.”

Joel 2:10-11: “The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?”

Nahum 1:5-6 says, “The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein. Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.”

Malachi says, "For behold, the dayis coming, burning like an oven, and all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day whicHis coming shall burn them up" (Malachi 4:1).

Here you have it!!!

Jesus said in Luke 17:29-30, “the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.”

It describes the swiftness and the scope. This is supported by much other Scripture.

Jesus said in Luke 21:33-36: “Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”

This passage locates the passing away of heaven and earth at the second coming and demonstrates, like in Noah’s day, it will come “as a snare … on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.”

I Thessalonians 5:2-3: “the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.”

Paul says, “the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day” (II Thessalonians 1:7-10).

How could the wicked survive this? It is impossible!

Amils take this literal! This is complete, wholesale, and total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors! There are no goats left to enter into the supposed Premil future millennium!!!

How does anyone left behind survive this? What unsaved person is exempt from this description “them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ”?

No mortal can surive what is described in those passages. It's interesting how premils tend to take everything literally, but suddenly they don't take things literally anymore when it comes to passages like 2 Peter 3:10-12, 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 and 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10. There's no consistency in their interpretive approach.

 

[WPM]

No mortal can surive what is described in those passages. It's interesting how premils tend to take everything literally, but suddenly they don't take things literally anymore when it comes to passages like 2 Peter 3:10-12, 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 and 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10. There's no consistency in their interpretive approach.

Exactly, they have to go there. That is a sign of false teaching. When people have to twist Scripture to make it fit their paradigm then you know that it is wrong.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Nope. They believed the kingdom and rule would happen when the Messiah appeared but they were wrong. Their beliefs are similar to Amill which claims the Millennial rule is now but it isn't.

No, their beliefs were similar to premil in that they expected the Messiah to come and immediately destroy the Roman empire and set up an earthly kingdom.

Both believing the King would be ruling but that belief was wrong then and remains wrong now. A physical kingdom is real and even Amill believes in an eventual physical kingdom.

Yes, but not the kind of kingdom that premils believe in where Jesus acts like a world dictator.

 

[Johann]

Exactly, they have to go there. That is a sign of false teaching. When people have to twist Scripture to make it fit their paradigm then you know that it is wrong.

Wouldn't go that far-how many denominations are there on planet earth?
Which one are you affiliated with?
J.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Typical diversion. David is raising a good question. If Jesus is going away to receive a kingdom, then how can you say it already exists?

How can you say it doesn't? It doesn't say He was going away and would later com to earth to receive a kingdom. It says He was going away from the earth to receive a kingdom. He was given power over the kingdom of God and over all things upon His ascension to the right hand of the Father in heaven, as the following passage indicates:

Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

His followers are in His kingdom now.

Colossians 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

 

[Johann]

Typical diversion. David is raising a good question. If Jesus is going away to receive a kingdom, then how can you say it already exists?

It doesn't?

1. Matthew 12:28 (NKJV)
"But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you."

Greek: "Ἐὰν δὲ ἐγὼ ἐν τῷ πνεύματι τοῦ Θεοῦ ἐκβάλλω δαιμόνια, ἄρα ἤγγικεν ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ Θεοῦ ὑμῖν."
Context: Jesus claims that His authority to cast out demons is evidence that the Kingdom of God is present and breaking into the world.2.

Luke 11:20 (NKJV)
"But if I cast out demons with the finger of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you."

Greek: "Ἐὰν δὲ ἐγὼ ἐν δακτύλῳ τοῦ Θεοῦ ἐκβάλλω δαιμόνια, ἄρα ἤγγικεν ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ Θεοῦ ἡμῖν."
Context: Similar to Matthew 12:28, this verse shows that Jesus’ miracles are seen as signs of the Kingdom's arrival.

3. Colossians 1:13 (NKJV)
"He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love."

Translated (μετέστησεν)
The word occurs five times in the New Testament: of putting out of the stewardship, Luk_16:4; of the removal of Saul from the kingdom, Act_13:22; of Paul turning away much people, Act_19:26; and of removing mountains, 1Co_13:2. A change of kingdoms is indicated.
Kingdom
Hence God's kingdom is in the present, no less than in heaven. See on Luk_6:20.

Of His dear Son (τοῦ υἱοῦ τῆς ἀγάπης αὐτοῦ)
Lit., of the Son of His love. So Rev. The Son who is the object of His love, and to whom, therefore, the kingdom is given. See Psa_2:7, Psa_2:8; Heb_1:3-9. It is true that love is the essence of the Son as of the Father; also, that the Son's mission is the revelation of the Father's love; but, as Meyer correctly says, “the language refers to the exalted Christ who rules.”
VWS

domain of darkness --"the authority of darkness"
domain, authority -- G1849; a power of a ruler

darkness - G4655; metaphoricall of ignorance, especially of divine things and knowledge of what is right

transferred us [translated] -- conveyed, transplanted; G3179; to move from one place to another,


kingdom of his beloved Son -- Christ's kingdom, or church. (Mat_16:18-19)
KINGDOM
"At hand"- Mat_3:2,
To come in first century with "Power"- Mar_9:1,
But "Power" to come with Holy Ghost- Act_1:8,
This happened on the day of Pentecost- Act_2:1-4.
The Kingdom was in existence in Paul's day- Col_1:13.
It is the Church- Mat_16:18-19.


Greek: "ὃς ἔσῳσεν ἡμᾶς ἀπὸ τῆς ἐξουσίας τοῦ σκότους καὶ μετέστησεν εἰς τὴν βασιλείαν τοῦ υἱοῦ τῆς ἀγάπης αὐτοῦ."
Context: This verse indicates that believers have been transferred into the Kingdom of the Son, suggesting a present reality of the Kingdom.

4. Romans 14:17 (NKJV)
"For the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit."

Greek: "οὐ γὰρ ἔστιν ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ Θεοῦ βρῶσις καὶ πόσις, ἀλλὰ δικαιοσύνη καὶ εἰρήνη καὶ χαρὰ ἐν πνεύματι ἁγίῳ."
Context: This verse emphasizes that the Kingdom of God is characterized by spiritual qualities rather than physical or material aspects.

5. Matthew 16:19 (NKJV)
"And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

Greek: "καὶ δώσω σοι τὰς κλεῖς τῆς βασιλείας τῶν οὐρανῶν· καὶ ὅσα ἂν δήσῃς ἐν τῇ γῇ ἔσται δεδεμένα ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς· καὶ ὅσα ἂν λύσῃς ἐν τῇ γῇ ἔσται λελυμένα ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς."
Context: Jesus promises Peter the authority to make binding decisions in the Kingdom, implying its present reality and influence on earth.

6. Luke 17:21 (NKJV)
"Nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you."

Greek: "οὐδὲ ἔρουσιν· ἰδοὺ ὧδε, ἢ ἰδοὺ ἐκεῖ· ἰδοὺ γάρ ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ Θεοῦ ἐντὸς ὑμῶν ἐστίν."
Context: Jesus states that the Kingdom of God is "within" or "among" the people, indicating a present spiritual reality.

7. Mark 9:1 (NKJV)
"And He said to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you that there are some standing here who will not taste death till they see the kingdom of God present with power.'"

Greek: "καὶ λέγει αὐτοῖς· ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν ὅτι εἰσίν τινες ὧδε στήκοντες οἳ οὐ μὴ γεύσωνται θανάτου ἕως ἂν ἴδωσι τὴν βασιλείαν τοῦ Θεοῦ ἐρχομένην ἐν δυνάμει."
Context: Jesus predicts that some of His contemporaries would witness the Kingdom of God coming in power, which some interpret as referring to the Transfiguration or the outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.

Addressing the Concern About the Kingdom Not Yet Existing
Luke 19:12-13: In the parable of the nobleman who goes to receive a kingdom and then return, the idea of "going away" to receive a kingdom does not necessarily contradict the present reality of the Kingdom. The parable may suggest that while Jesus inaugurated the Kingdom during His earthly ministry, its full realization and consummation will occur in the future. This is consistent with the view that the Kingdom has both a present and future aspect.

J.

 

[rwb]

When I first read of a third of the sun and moon not shining on the earth, in revelation, I used to imagine, as a child, God covering a third of the sun and moon with his hand. He would directly do it. Now, man has the ability to achieve that themself. So, the biblical prophecy, could be seen as coming to fruition through what man does, not what God directly does.
Man also has the ability to change this world completely, reset it if you like, a third of the earth would result in being covered in darkness, and a third of the land and trees could be burned up too. The world would see horrors unequalled since its creation and never to be seen again
All I'm saying is, biblical prophecy can be brought to fruition by the actions of man, it doesnt have to be directly by God Himself, does that make sense?

Yes, God does use man to accomplish His will! Even the Son of God became a man to accomplish all the Father ordained He would from before the foundation of the world. Which is why it is written, "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There is nothing for me to take the wrong way. I do not agree with some of these Amils to begin with, that we should take 2 Peter 3:10-12 in the literal sense where the planet is literally engulfed in flames. Some of them argue that since Noah's flood is mentioned in that chapter, and that that event was literal, as in literal water drowning them, so must the fire be literal. IOW, the same way the earth was engulfed in literal water, this time it will be engulfed in literal flames. I reject that argument.

You reject that argument for no good reason.

2 Peter 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Peter makes it very clear that he is comparing events of the same type. That's what the phrase "by the same word" indicates. He said that just as the world was destroyed in the past by water (in Noah's day, obviously), in the same sense the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire. That means he was comparing one literal, physical global destruction event with another. Otherwise, him comparing the future fiery event "by the same word" to the past event wouldn't make sense. The future event is not "by the same word" as the past event in your interpretation of the passage.

Jesus also compared the two events directly.

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Do you interpret this like you do 2 Peter 3:6-7 and conclude that Jesus was not comparing the destruction that will occur at His second coming to the destruction that occurred with the flood? If so, then what do you think Jesus meant when He said "so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" right after describing the flood as having destroyed all unbelievers?

But I do agree that the flood was a literal event involving literal water. I don't dispute that. But that is no reason to argue that the fire has to be literal as well, that it engulfs the entire planet.

Why did Peter compare the future fiery event "by the same word" to the past flood event if the fire isn't literal?

Especially when God said He would never do anything like that again.

He did not say that. You need to stop making things up. He only said He would not destroy the earth with a flood again. He did not say He would never destroy the earth again.

Genesis 9:11 And I will establish my covenant with you, neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.

How else can the perfect and eternal new heavens and new earth be ushered in without God first removing all of the wickedness and wicked things from the earth?

Amils would have us believe He does something even worse this time, because drowning compared to being burned to death, though both are a cruel way to die, it would be far worse to be burned to death, IMO.

Nonsense. You are interpreting scripture based on emotion and what you want to happen instead of just accepting what it teaches will happen. That is obvious. That is not how you should be interpreting scripture.

It seems that the real issue here is not premil vs. amil, but rather that you don't like how God does things. Do you have a problem with what God did to Sodom and Gomorrah? You apparently do since you can't accept that He will burn up the earth when Jesus comes. But, most likely, it will happen quickly. People will be burned up immediately as seemed to be the case with Sodom and Gomorrah. So, the idea that it would be worse than the flood only comes from your imagination and not from scripture itself.

 

[Davidpt]

Do you know the difference between that which is forever and that which can only be temporary?

Take death, for example. That would be something that is temporary and not forever. Meaning people don't keep dying forever. For example. It's a billion years later. No one is dying. It's a trillion years later. Still no one is dying. So on and so. I'm pretty sure I know the difference between something temporary and something everlasting.

But I suspect your question pertains to this kingdom in question. Let's say Premil is true. I know you disagree, but for the sake of argument let's assume it is true. This would mean once Christ returns and that the kingdom is now literally visible for all on the earth to behold with their own eyes, what happens to the kingdom once this thousand years expires? Does the kingdom expire as well? Is the kingdom only temporary and then is replaced with another kingdom, one that is not temporary? No. The same kingdom that is present during the thousand years is the same kingdom that is present for all eternity. This thousand years is simply the first thousand years of it. Meaning once it is visible on the earth for all on the earth to behold with their own eyes. That can't happen until Christ returns first.

Then there is a choice for some to make after the thousand years expires. Meaning for the ones remaining of the nations that God spared when He initially returned, such as those recorded in Zechariah 14:16-19. That time period is meaning after Christ has returned, not before He has returned. They have had a taste of heaven for a thousand years, so let's see what happens if satan is loosed and allowed to deceive them yet again. And we all know how that ends.

 

[Davidpt]

It will translate into a physical Kingdom.

Exactly! And I don't see why some appear to argue against that. As if it makes sense that the kingdom remains in a hidden state forever.

 

[IndianaRob]

Exactly! And I don't see why some appear to argue against that. As if it makes sense that the kingdom remains in a hidden state forever.

We argue against it because Jesus specifically says his kingdom cannot be seen and he doesn’t say anything about another kingdom that will be seen.

 

[rwb]

This would mean once Christ returns and that the kingdom is now literally visible for all on the earth to behold with their own eyes, what happens to the kingdom once this thousand years expires? Does the kingdom expire as well? Is the kingdom only temporary and then is replaced with another kingdom, one that is not temporary?

If the Kingdom of God is on this earth when God sends down fire from heaven to utterly burn up everything on the earth with every living inhabitant, how could that which is physical be exempt from the fiery wrath of God? That's not how eternal/everlasting/forever is defined. Where in Scripture can you prove the Kingdom of God that shall be when Christ comes again begins with one thousand literal years since the seventh angel sounds when Christ comes again "that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets." ???

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Take death, for example. That would be something that is temporary and not forever. Meaning people don't keep dying forever. For example. It's a billion years later. No one is dying. It's a trillion years later. Still no one is dying. So on and so. I'm pretty sure I know the difference between something temporary and something everlasting.

But I suspect your question pertains to this kingdom in question. Let's say Premil is true. I know you disagree, but for the sake of argument let's assume it is true. This would mean once Christ returns and that the kingdom is now literally visible for all on the earth to behold with their own eyes, what happens to the kingdom once this thousand years expires? Does the kingdom expire as well? Is the kingdom only temporary and then is replaced with another kingdom, one that is not temporary? No. The same kingdom that is present during the thousand years is the same kingdom that is present for all eternity. This thousand years is simply the first thousand years of it. Meaning once it is visible on the earth for all on the earth to behold with their own eyes. That can't happen until Christ returns first.

Then there is a choice for some to make after the thousand years expires. Meaning for the ones remaining of the nations that God spared when He initially returned, such as those recorded in Zechariah 14:16-19. That time period is meaning after Christ has returned, not before He has returned. They have had a taste of heaven for a thousand years, so let's see what happens if satan is loosed and allowed to deceive them yet again. And we all know how that ends.

Speaking of things that are eternal vs. temporary, how does your understanding of Zechariah 14:16-19 line up with this:

John 4:19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. 21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Do you believe that what Jesus said in the above passage was meant to only be temporary and not eternal?

 

[Johann]

We argue against it because Jesus specifically says his kingdom cannot be seen and he doesn’t say anything about another kingdom that will be seen.

THE KINGDOM OF GOD

In the OT YHWH was the King of Israel (cf. Exod. 19:5-6; Jdg. 8:23; 1 Sam. 8:7; Ps. 10:16; 24:7-9; 29:10; 44:4; 89:18; 95:3; Isa. 43:15; 44:6) and the Messiah was the ideal Davidic king who was to come and set up/inaugurate this reign of God (cf. 2 Sam. 7; 1 Chr. 17; Ps. 2:6; 45:6; Isa. 9:6-7; 11:1-5). With the birth of Jesus at Bethlehem (6-4 B.C.) the eternal kingdom of God broke into human history with fulfillment power (i.e., Dan. 2:44; 4:3,34; 6:26; 7:14,27) and redemption (i.e., New Covenant, cf. Jer. 31:31-34; Ezek. 36:27-36).

John the Baptist proclaimed the nearness of the kingdom (cf. Matt. 3:2; Mark 1:15).
Jesus clearly taught that the kingdom was present in Himself and His teachings (cf. Matt. 4:17; 10:7; 12:28; Luke 10:9,11; 11:20; 17:21; 21:31-32).
Yet the kingdom is also future (cf. Matt. 16:28; 24:14; 26:29; Mark 9:1; Luke 21:27,31; 22:16,18; Acts 1:11).

In the Synoptic parallels of Mark and Luke we find the phrase, "the kingdom of God." This was a common topic of Jesus' teachings involving the present reign of God in believers' hearts, which one day will be consummated over all the earth (cf. Phil. 2:9-11). This is reflected in Jesus' prayer in Matt. 6:10. Matthew, writing to Jews, preferred the phrase that did not use the name of God (i.e., circumlocution, "Kingdom of Heaven"), while Mark and Luke, writing to Gentiles, used the common designation, employing the name of Deity (compare Matt. 19:14 with Mark 10:14 and Luke 18:16; see F. F. Bruce, Answers to Questions. pp. 221-222.).

The Kingdom of God is such a key phrase in the Synoptic Gospels. Jesus' first and last sermons, and most of His parables, dealt with this topic. It refers to the reign of God in believers' hearts now! Jesus is King. We live every day as His servants (i.e., Matthew 5-7). It is surprising that John uses this phrase only twice (and never in Jesus' parables). In John's gospel "eternal life" is the key imagery.

To fully understand this key phrase it needs to be emphasized that it does not refer to believers going to heaven (i.e., the new heaven is coming down to a cleansed earth, Revelation 21). It refers to godly living now (i.e., Matt. 6:33). It is the restoration of God's society on earth before the Fall of Genesis 3. The Kingdom reflects the King. The King reflects the will of the Father for a loving, caring society of humans made in His image and who live with Him on earth.

The tension of our understanding of this phrase is caused by the two comings of Christ. The OT focused only on one coming of God's Messiah—a military, judgmental, glorious coming—but the NT shows that He came the first time as the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 and the humble king of Zech. 9:9. The two Jewish ages, the age of wickedness and the new age of righteousness, overlap. Jesus currently reigns in the hearts of believers, but will one day reign over all creation. He will come as the OT predicted! Believers live in "the already" versus "the not yet" of the kingdom of God (cf. Gordon D. Fee and Douglas Stuart's How to Read The Bible For All Its Worth, pp. 131-134).

It seems that Luke 24:25-27, 44-49, document that Jesus fully revealed the prophetic purpose of His suffering and death. Jesus Himself opened the understanding of the two on the road to Emmaus and they, in turn, opened the understanding of those gathered in the upper room.

This emphasis on the coming of the Kingdom of God was preached to Jews and Gentiles (cf. Acts 8:12; 19:8; 20:25; 28:23,31). The Kingdom had come in Jesus! This Kingdom is called "the whole purpose/counsel of God." These early witnesses (i.e., 120 in the upper room) needed to understand how Jesus' birth, life, death, and resurrection perfectly fit the OT prophecies and promises.

Acts 2:14-36 ‒ Joel 2:28-32; Ps. 16:8-11; 110:1
Acts 13:16-41 ‒ OT summary with concluding quote from Hab. 1:5; also note v. 47 is a quote from Isa. 49:6
Acts 28:26-28 ‒ Isa. 6:9-10
A suffering Messiah was so foreign to Jewish traditons and mentality (i.e., Luke 24:44-49).

I have recently (2023) become aware of another Bible teacher who I have found to be very similar to my own thinking about biblical subjects. His name is Steve Gregg and his website is www.thenarrowpath.com. His lectures on "The Kingdom of God" in the "Topical Lectures" section of his website have been very informative. I hope you will listen to these or view his YouTube video, "The Kingdom of God."

SPECIAL TOPIC: THE KINGDOM OF GOD

Kingdom of God -- Old Testament Special Topic by Dr. Bob Utley, professor of hermeneutics (retired).

www.freebiblecommentary.org

 

[IndianaRob]

THE KINGDOM OF GOD

In the OT YHWH was the King of Israel (cf. Exod. 19:5-6; Jdg. 8:23; 1 Sam. 8:7; Ps. 10:16; 24:7-9; 29:10; 44:4; 89:18; 95:3; Isa. 43:15; 44:6) and the Messiah was the ideal Davidic king who was to come and set up/inaugurate this reign of God (cf. 2 Sam. 7; 1 Chr. 17; Ps. 2:6; 45:6; Isa. 9:6-7; 11:1-5). With the birth of Jesus at Bethlehem (6-4 B.C.) the eternal kingdom of God broke into human history with fulfillment power (i.e., Dan. 2:44; 4:3,34; 6:26; 7:14,27) and redemption (i.e., New Covenant, cf. Jer. 31:31-34; Ezek. 36:27-36).

John the Baptist proclaimed the nearness of the kingdom (cf. Matt. 3:2; Mark 1:15).
Jesus clearly taught that the kingdom was present in Himself and His teachings (cf. Matt. 4:17; 10:7; 12:28; Luke 10:9,11; 11:20; 17:21; 21:31-32).
Yet the kingdom is also future (cf. Matt. 16:28; 24:14; 26:29; Mark 9:1; Luke 21:27,31; 22:16,18; Acts 1:11).

In the Synoptic parallels of Mark and Luke we find the phrase, "the kingdom of God." This was a common topic of Jesus' teachings involving the present reign of God in believers' hearts, which one day will be consummated over all the earth (cf. Phil. 2:9-11). This is reflected in Jesus' prayer in Matt. 6:10. Matthew, writing to Jews, preferred the phrase that did not use the name of God (i.e., circumlocution, "Kingdom of Heaven"), while Mark and Luke, writing to Gentiles, used the common designation, employing the name of Deity (compare Matt. 19:14 with Mark 10:14 and Luke 18:16; see F. F. Bruce, Answers to Questions. pp. 221-222.).

The Kingdom of God is such a key phrase in the Synoptic Gospels. Jesus' first and last sermons, and most of His parables, dealt with this topic. It refers to the reign of God in believers' hearts now! Jesus is King. We live every day as His servants (i.e., Matthew 5-7). It is surprising that John uses this phrase only twice (and never in Jesus' parables). In John's gospel "eternal life" is the key imagery.

To fully understand this key phrase it needs to be emphasized that it does not refer to believers going to heaven (i.e., the new heaven is coming down to a cleansed earth, Revelation 21). It refers to godly living now (i.e., Matt. 6:33). It is the restoration of God's society on earth before the Fall of Genesis 3. The Kingdom reflects the King. The King reflects the will of the Father for a loving, caring society of humans made in His image and who live with Him on earth.

The tension of our understanding of this phrase is caused by the two comings of Christ. The OT focused only on one coming of God's Messiah—a military, judgmental, glorious coming—but the NT shows that He came the first time as the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 and the humble king of Zech. 9:9. The two Jewish ages, the age of wickedness and the new age of righteousness, overlap. Jesus currently reigns in the hearts of believers, but will one day reign over all creation. He will come as the OT predicted! Believers live in "the already" versus "the not yet" of the kingdom of God (cf. Gordon D. Fee and Douglas Stuart's How to Read The Bible For All Its Worth, pp. 131-134).

It seems that Luke 24:25-27, 44-49, document that Jesus fully revealed the prophetic purpose of His suffering and death. Jesus Himself opened the understanding of the two on the road to Emmaus and they, in turn, opened the understanding of those gathered in the upper room.

This emphasis on the coming of the Kingdom of God was preached to Jews and Gentiles (cf. Acts 8:12; 19:8; 20:25; 28:23,31). The Kingdom had come in Jesus! This Kingdom is called "the whole purpose/counsel of God." These early witnesses (i.e., 120 in the upper room) needed to understand how Jesus' birth, life, death, and resurrection perfectly fit the OT prophecies and promises.

Acts 2:14-36 ‒ Joel 2:28-32; Ps. 16:8-11; 110:1
Acts 13:16-41 ‒ OT summary with concluding quote from Hab. 1:5; also note v. 47 is a quote from Isa. 49:6
Acts 28:26-28 ‒ Isa. 6:9-10
A suffering Messiah was so foreign to Jewish traditons and mentality (i.e., Luke 24:44-49).

I have recently (2023) become aware of another Bible teacher who I have found to be very similar to my own thinking about biblical subjects. His name is Steve Gregg and his website is www.thenarrowpath.com. His lectures on "The Kingdom of God" in the "Topical Lectures" section of his website have been very informative. I hope you will listen to these or view his YouTube video, "The Kingdom of God."

SPECIAL TOPIC: THE KINGDOM OF GOD

Kingdom of God -- Old Testament Special Topic by Dr. Bob Utley, professor of hermeneutics (retired).

www.freebiblecommentary.org

Sounds rather scholarly.

 

[Davidpt]

You reject that argument for no good reason.

2 Peter 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Peter makes it very clear that he is comparing events of the same type. That's what the phrase "by the same word" indicates. He said that just as the world was destroyed in the past by water (in Noah's day, obviously), in the same sense the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire. That means he was comparing one literal, physical global destruction event with another. Otherwise, him comparing the future fiery event "by the same word" to the past event wouldn't make sense. The future event is not "by the same word" as the past event in your interpretation of the passage.

Jesus also compared the two events directly.

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Do you interpret this like you do 2 Peter 3:6-7 and conclude that Jesus was not comparing the destruction that will occur at His second coming to the destruction that occurred with the flood? If so, then what do you think Jesus meant when He said "so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" right after describing the flood as having destroyed all unbelievers?


Why did Peter compare the future fiery event "by the same word" to the past flood event if the fire isn't literal?


He did not say that. You need to stop making things up. He only said He would not destroy the earth with a flood again. He did not say He would never destroy the earth again.

Genesis 9:11 And I will establish my covenant with you, neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.

How else can the perfect and eternal new heavens and new earth be ushered in without God first removing all of the wickedness and wicked things from the earth?


Nonsense. You are interpreting scripture based on emotion and what you want to happen instead of just accepting what it teaches will happen. That is obvious. That is not how you should be interpreting scripture.

It seems that the real issue here is not premil vs. amil, but rather that you don't like how God does things. Do you have a problem with what God did to Sodom and Gomorrah? You apparently do since you can't accept that He will burn up the earth when Jesus comes. But, most likely, it will happen quickly. People will be burned up immediately as seemed to be the case with Sodom and Gomorrah. So, the idea that it would be worse than the flood only comes from your imagination and not from scripture itself.

Things I'm factoring in that you apparently are not, would be some of the following. For example, the animal kingdom. During the flood God preserved the animal kingdom. There was an ark built big enough to preserve them. How do you propose He preserves the animal kingdom this time around if you are correct that the entire planet is engulfed in literal flames of fire the same way it was engulfed in literal water?

Then there is the matter of infants and children. During the flood He did not spare even any of them. We are to believe this time when He doesn't spare them, assuming you are correct that the planet is engulfed in flames, He's going to burn them to a crisp? It would be being intellectually dishonest to insist God will spare infants and children this time around though that was not true the first time around, if one is seeing this time around being comparable to the first time around. Why would He spare any of this time? He didn't the first time around, right?

Thus far, what you seeing being comparable to the flood is not even comparable at all. Per the flood the animal kingdom was preserved. If you are correct that the planet is engulfed in flames, that contradicts the fact that God preserved the animal kingdom during the flood since there would be zero way to preserve it this time.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Things I'm factoring in that you apparently are not, would be some of the following.

Can you please specifically address what I said in my post? You didn't specifically address one single thing I said. You expect me to specifically address your points, but you don't specifically address mine. That isn't fair and I'm not interested in having a one way discussion like that as I've told you many times before.

For example, the animal kingdom. During the flood God preserved the animal kingdom. There was an ark built big enough to preserve them. How do you propose He preserves the animal kingdom this time around if you are correct that the entire planet is engulfed in literal flames of fire the same way it was engulfed in literal water?

Yes, He preserved the animal kingdom because He was basically starting everything over. That wasn't a case of ushering in eternity. Where does scripture say that God would give eternal life to animals?

You're not addressing what Peter said in 2 Peter 3:6-7. He said that the world was destroyed by water in the flood and in the future "the heavens and the earth, which are now, BY THE SAME WORD are kept in store, reserved unto fire.

Do you see that phrase "by the same word"? What do you think it means? To me, it clearly means that Peter was comparing two events that were the same in some way. In what way? That they are both global and both involve the destruction of the earth. That's obvious to me, but please tell me your understanding of that phrase and what it means.

Then there is the matter of infants and children. During the flood He did not spare even any of them. We are to believe this time when He doesn't spare them, assuming you are correct that the planet is engulfed in flames, He's going to burn them to a crisp?

I'm not going to make any comparisons between the two events that scripture doesn't. In the case of the flood, God wanted to start over with just one family. That was what He decided to do. Just because all infants and children were killed does not mean they were damned to hell. In my view, eternity will be ushered in when Jesus comes, so there would be no reason to destroy them since it's not a case of starting over when He comes, but rather bringing in eternity by way of the eternal new heavens and new earth. There's no reason to think that the two events have to be the same in every possible way. But, it's clear that the future event will be a physical event because that is how it is described.

Also, we have another passage that speaks of the same event in 1 Thess 5:2-3. Do you think the "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape" that Paul described as occurring on the day of the Lord is not literal, physical destruction?

It would be being intellectually dishonest to insist God will spare infants and children this time around though that was not true the first time around, if one is seeing this time around being comparable to the first time around.

You're always making your own man-made rules on how people need to interpret scripture. I don't need to follow this man-made rule you made up that says unless the two events are the same in every possible way, the future event can't be taken literally. That's ridiculous.

Why would He spare any of this time? He didn't the first time around, right?

I already addressed that, so this shows that you're not actually reading everything I'm saying. And I addressed this again above.

Thus far, what you seeing being comparable to the flood is not even comparable at all.

That's ridiculous. In both cases the entire earth's surface is destroyed. That's not comparable? In both cases, all unbelievers are destroyed. That's not comparable? In both cases, all believers are protected from God's wrath. That's not comparable?

This passage indicates who exactly will be destroyed at that time and it doesn't describe infants and children since they are not even capable of rejecting God and the gospel since only someone who can understand who God is can reject Him and only someone who understands the gospel can reject it:

2 Thessalonians 1:7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

Per the flood the animal kingdom was preserved. If you are correct that the planet is engulfed in flames, that contradicts the fact that God preserved the animal kingdom during the flood since there would be zero way to preserve it this time.

Where does scripture indicate that the animal kingdom would be preserved for eternity? Did Jesus die to give animals the opportunity for eternal life or human beings?

 

[CadyandZoe]

How can you say it doesn't? It doesn't say He was going away and would later com to earth to receive a kingdom. It says He was going away from the earth to receive a kingdom.

It also says that he will reward his faithful followers when he returns. In other words, the kingdom he will receive will not be realized until he comes back.

He was given power over the kingdom of God and over all things upon His ascension to the right hand of the Father in heaven, as the following passage indicates:

Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

His followers are in His kingdom now.

Colossians 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Jesus has been granted all authority in heaven and on earth. However, when he returns, he will fulfill our prayer "Thy kingdom come ON EARTH as it is in heaven." This prayer has not yet been fulfilled.

 

[Davidpt]

We argue against it because Jesus specifically says his kingdom cannot be seen and he doesn’t say anything about another kingdom that will be seen.

We? You mean there is more than just you that argue against it? It's even worse than I imagined, because I already realized you argue against it. But I was kind of hoping you were the only person on the planet that did. That way there is only one person to try and convince they are wrong about that rather than having to try and convince numerous persons they are wrong about that. But then again, the more I think about it, there is also full preterists to factor in. I guess their position would be the same as yours. And for all I know at this point, you may even be a full preterist yourself. Maybe that explains some of it? I don't know?

 

[CadyandZoe]

It doesn't?

1. Matthew 12:28 (NKJV)
"But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you."

Greek: "Ἐὰν δὲ ἐγὼ ἐν τῷ πνεύματι τοῦ Θεοῦ ἐκβάλλω δαιμόνια, ἄρα ἤγγικεν ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ Θεοῦ ὑμῖν."
Context: Jesus claims that His authority to cast out demons is evidence that the Kingdom of God is present and breaking into the world.2.

Luke 11:20 (NKJV)
"But if I cast out demons with the finger of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you."

Greek: "Ἐὰν δὲ ἐγὼ ἐν δακτύλῳ τοῦ Θεοῦ ἐκβάλλω δαιμόνια, ἄρα ἤγγικεν ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ Θεοῦ ἡμῖν."
Context: Similar to Matthew 12:28, this verse shows that Jesus’ miracles are seen as signs of the Kingdom's arrival.

3. Colossians 1:13 (NKJV)
"He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love."

Translated (μετέστησεν)
The word occurs five times in the New Testament: of putting out of the stewardship, Luk_16:4; of the removal of Saul from the kingdom, Act_13:22; of Paul turning away much people, Act_19:26; and of removing mountains, 1Co_13:2. A change of kingdoms is indicated.
Kingdom
Hence God's kingdom is in the present, no less than in heaven. See on Luk_6:20.

Of His dear Son (τοῦ υἱοῦ τῆς ἀγάπης αὐτοῦ)
Lit., of the Son of His love. So Rev. The Son who is the object of His love, and to whom, therefore, the kingdom is given. See Psa_2:7, Psa_2:8; Heb_1:3-9. It is true that love is the essence of the Son as of the Father; also, that the Son's mission is the revelation of the Father's love; but, as Meyer correctly says, “the language refers to the exalted Christ who rules.”
VWS

domain of darkness --"the authority of darkness"
domain, authority -- G1849; a power of a ruler

darkness - G4655; metaphoricall of ignorance, especially of divine things and knowledge of what is right

transferred us [translated] -- conveyed, transplanted; G3179; to move from one place to another,


kingdom of his beloved Son -- Christ's kingdom, or church. (Mat_16:18-19)
KINGDOM
"At hand"- Mat_3:2,
To come in first century with "Power"- Mar_9:1,
But "Power" to come with Holy Ghost- Act_1:8,
This happened on the day of Pentecost- Act_2:1-4.
The Kingdom was in existence in Paul's day- Col_1:13.
It is the Church- Mat_16:18-19.


Greek: "ὃς ἔσῳσεν ἡμᾶς ἀπὸ τῆς ἐξουσίας τοῦ σκότους καὶ μετέστησεν εἰς τὴν βασιλείαν τοῦ υἱοῦ τῆς ἀγάπης αὐτοῦ."
Context: This verse indicates that believers have been transferred into the Kingdom of the Son, suggesting a present reality of the Kingdom.

4. Romans 14:17 (NKJV)
"For the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit."

Greek: "οὐ γὰρ ἔστιν ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ Θεοῦ βρῶσις καὶ πόσις, ἀλλὰ δικαιοσύνη καὶ εἰρήνη καὶ χαρὰ ἐν πνεύματι ἁγίῳ."
Context: This verse emphasizes that the Kingdom of God is characterized by spiritual qualities rather than physical or material aspects.

5. Matthew 16:19 (NKJV)
"And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

Greek: "καὶ δώσω σοι τὰς κλεῖς τῆς βασιλείας τῶν οὐρανῶν· καὶ ὅσα ἂν δήσῃς ἐν τῇ γῇ ἔσται δεδεμένα ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς· καὶ ὅσα ἂν λύσῃς ἐν τῇ γῇ ἔσται λελυμένα ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς."
Context: Jesus promises Peter the authority to make binding decisions in the Kingdom, implying its present reality and influence on earth.

6. Luke 17:21 (NKJV)
"Nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you."

Greek: "οὐδὲ ἔρουσιν· ἰδοὺ ὧδε, ἢ ἰδοὺ ἐκεῖ· ἰδοὺ γάρ ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ Θεοῦ ἐντὸς ὑμῶν ἐστίν."
Context: Jesus states that the Kingdom of God is "within" or "among" the people, indicating a present spiritual reality.

7. Mark 9:1 (NKJV)
"And He said to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you that there are some standing here who will not taste death till they see the kingdom of God present with power.'"

Greek: "καὶ λέγει αὐτοῖς· ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν ὅτι εἰσίν τινες ὧδε στήκοντες οἳ οὐ μὴ γεύσωνται θανάτου ἕως ἂν ἴδωσι τὴν βασιλείαν τοῦ Θεοῦ ἐρχομένην ἐν δυνάμει."
Context: Jesus predicts that some of His contemporaries would witness the Kingdom of God coming in power, which some interpret as referring to the Transfiguration or the outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.

Addressing the Concern About the Kingdom Not Yet Existing
Luke 19:12-13: In the parable of the nobleman who goes to receive a kingdom and then return, the idea of "going away" to receive a kingdom does not necessarily contradict the present reality of the Kingdom. The parable may suggest that while Jesus inaugurated the Kingdom during His earthly ministry, its full realization and consummation will occur in the future. This is consistent with the view that the Kingdom has both a present and future aspect.

J.

The kingdom is wherever the king resides. Thus, Jesus preached "The kingdom of God is at hand." and he also told the Pharisees, "the kingdom of God is among you" indicating himself. Even during his ministry the kingdom of God was at hand and present with Jesus and his followers as you rightly point out.

Knowing this, we need to explain two of his teachings: "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven," and Jesus' teaching that he must go away to receive his kingdom. As you point out, even during Jesus' earthly ministry, his followers were being transferred from the domain of darkness into his kingdom of light.

So then, why did Jesus tell his disciples that he must go away to receive a kingdom? Might he receive another, different kind of kingdom? We must take that question seriously and allow Jesus' parable to inform us that the picture we inherited from Evangelicalism might be wrong or incomplete. Yes?

Even while Jesus was ruling over a kingdom of light, a kingdom that included himself and his followers, did he go to heaven to receive another kingdom? If so, what will that kingdom be like?