Some key points pertaining to the parable per Luke 19:11-27.

[Johann]

There are just so many holes in this view and it doesn't fit the context.

I'm afraid not-

You are correct to say that Paul does not desire to be "unclothed," but we must also consider what Paul means by being "clothed" and how that relates to being with the Lord before the resurrection.

1. The Meaning of "Unclothed" and "Clothed" in 2 Corinthians 5:4
2 Corinthians 5:4 (NKJV) reads:

"For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life."
Greek: καὶ γὰρ οἱ ὄντες ἐν τῷ σκήνει στενάζομεν βαρούμενοι, ἐφ᾽ ᾧ οὐ θέλομεν ἐκδύσασθαι ἀλλ᾽ ἐπενδύσασθαι, ἵνα καταποθῇ τὸ θνητὸν ὑπὸ τῆς ζωῆς (kai gar hoi ontes en tō skēnē stenazomen baroumenoi, eph' hō ou thelomen ekdysasthai all' ependysasthai, hina katapothē to thnēton hypo tēs zōēs).

Let’s analyze the key verbs and terms in this verse:

ἐκδύσασθαι (ekdysasthai) – "to be unclothed" or "to take off."
ἐπενδύσασθαι (ependysasthai) – "to be further clothed" or "to put on over."
καταποθῇ (katapothē) – "to be swallowed up."
θνητὸν (thnēton) – "mortality" or "what is mortal."
ζωῆς (zōēs) – "life."

Paul is using a metaphor of clothing to describe the transition between our current mortal state and the future immortal state. His desire is not to be "unclothed" (ἐκδύσασθαι), which would mean being without a body. Instead, he wants to be "further clothed" (ἐπενδύσασθαι)—a term that implies the addition of something new rather than the removal of the body. This additional "clothing" is the immortal, glorified body that believers will receive at the resurrection.

The phrase ἵνα καταποθῇ τὸ θνητὸν ὑπὸ τῆς ζωῆς (hina katapothē to thnēton hypo tēs zōēs)—"that mortality may be swallowed up by life"—reinforces this idea. Paul desires that the mortal body, subject to death, will be overwhelmed and replaced by the immortal life that comes through Christ’s resurrection.

2. Paul's Desire to Be "Clothed"
Paul’s use of the verb ἐπενδύσασθαι (ependysasthai, "to be clothed upon") highlights that his longing is for a transformation, not for an existence without a body. This further clothing refers to the immortal body he will receive at the resurrection. He is not rejecting the body entirely, but rather seeking for it to be glorified and made immortal. In this way, mortality (θνητὸν, thnēton) is "swallowed up by life" (ζωῆς, zōēs). This is consistent with his teaching elsewhere, especially in 1 Corinthians 15:53, where he says:

"For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."
Greek: δεῖ γὰρ τὸ φθαρτὸν τοῦτο ἐνδύσασθαι ἀφθαρσίαν, καὶ τὸ θνητὸν τοῦτο ἐνδύσασθαι ἀθανασίαν (dei gar to phtharton touto endysasthai aphtharsian, kai to thnēton touto endysasthai athanasian).

Here again, Paul uses the verb ἐνδύσασθαι (endysasthai) to describe the "putting on" of immortality at the resurrection. His longing is not to be without a body but to have his current body transformed into one that is incorruptible and immortal.

3. The State Between Death and Resurrection
Now, it is crucial to address the state between death and resurrection. While Paul does indeed long to be further clothed (at the resurrection), this does not negate the fact that believers are immediately present with the Lord after death, even while awaiting the resurrection of their glorified bodies.

In 2 Corinthians 5:8 (NKJV), Paul writes:

"We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord." Greek: θαρροῦμεν δὲ καὶ εὐδοκοῦμεν μᾶλλον ἐκδημῆσαι ἐκ τοῦ σώματος καὶ ἐνδημῆσαι πρὸς τὸν κύριον (tharroumen de kai eudokoumen mallon ekdēmēsai ek tou sōmatos kai endēmēsai pros ton Kyrion).

Here, the contrast between ἐκδημῆσαι (ekdēmēsai, "to be absent from the body") and ἐνδημῆσαι (endēmēsai, "to be present with the Lord") indicates an immediate transition. Paul does not expect to be in a state of "unclothed" existence (a disembodied soul in the Platonic sense) for a long period, but rather to be with the Lord after death, even before the full "clothing" of the resurrection body. This does not imply immortality at death but the believer's conscious presence with Christ while awaiting the final resurrection.

4. Conclusion: Context of Paul's Teaching
Paul's teaching in 2 Corinthians 5:4 emphasizes that his ultimate hope is to be "clothed" with immortality at the resurrection. However, this does not exclude the intermediate state, where the soul is consciously present with the Lord after death but before receiving the glorified body. Paul’s concern is not for a disembodied existence (being "unclothed") but for the full redemption of his body.

The Greek terms and syntax make it clear that Paul longs for the final resurrection but also looks forward to being with the Lord immediately upon death. His desire for the "further clothing" (ἐπενδύσασθαι) of immortality does not negate the reality that believers are consciously present with Christ even before this final event.

Therefore, your interpretation, which sees this passage only as referring to a future resurrection with no intermediate state, does not fully account for Paul’s emphasis on the immediate presence with the Lord in 2 Corinthians 5:8 and Philippians 1:23 F2F.

But now we have other members on the band wagon and will make this conversation extremely difficult brother.
Suffice to say, I stand by my position as it stands written in Scriptures.

Shalom.
J.

 

[face2face]

The Rock smites the Kingdoms of men and breaks it in pieces and grinds it to powder. Christ replaces the Kingdoms of Men with the Kingdom of God on Earth.

 

[face2face]

I'm afraid not-

You are correct to say that Paul does not desire to be "unclothed," but we must also consider what Paul means by being "clothed" and how that relates to being with the Lord before the resurrection.

1. The Meaning of "Unclothed" and "Clothed" in 2 Corinthians 5:4
2 Corinthians 5:4 (NKJV) reads:

"For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life."
Greek: καὶ γὰρ οἱ ὄντες ἐν τῷ σκήνει στενάζομεν βαρούμενοι, ἐφ᾽ ᾧ οὐ θέλομεν ἐκδύσασθαι ἀλλ᾽ ἐπενδύσασθαι, ἵνα καταποθῇ τὸ θνητὸν ὑπὸ τῆς ζωῆς (kai gar hoi ontes en tō skēnē stenazomen baroumenoi, eph' hō ou thelomen ekdysasthai all' ependysasthai, hina katapothē to thnēton hypo tēs zōēs).

Let’s analyze the key verbs and terms in this verse:

ἐκδύσασθαι (ekdysasthai) – "to be unclothed" or "to take off."
ἐπενδύσασθαι (ependysasthai) – "to be further clothed" or "to put on over."
καταποθῇ (katapothē) – "to be swallowed up."
θνητὸν (thnēton) – "mortality" or "what is mortal."
ζωῆς (zōēs) – "life."

Paul is using a metaphor of clothing to describe the transition between our current mortal state and the future immortal state. His desire is not to be "unclothed" (ἐκδύσασθαι), which would mean being without a body. Instead, he wants to be "further clothed" (ἐπενδύσασθαι)—a term that implies the addition of something new rather than the removal of the body. This additional "clothing" is the immortal, glorified body that believers will receive at the resurrection.

The phrase ἵνα καταποθῇ τὸ θνητὸν ὑπὸ τῆς ζωῆς (hina katapothē to thnēton hypo tēs zōēs)—"that mortality may be swallowed up by life"—reinforces this idea. Paul desires that the mortal body, subject to death, will be overwhelmed and replaced by the immortal life that comes through Christ’s resurrection.

2. Paul's Desire to Be "Clothed"
Paul’s use of the verb ἐπενδύσασθαι (ependysasthai, "to be clothed upon") highlights that his longing is for a transformation, not for an existence without a body. This further clothing refers to the immortal body he will receive at the resurrection. He is not rejecting the body entirely, but rather seeking for it to be glorified and made immortal. In this way, mortality (θνητὸν, thnēton) is "swallowed up by life" (ζωῆς, zōēs). This is consistent with his teaching elsewhere, especially in 1 Corinthians 15:53, where he says:

"For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."
Greek: δεῖ γὰρ τὸ φθαρτὸν τοῦτο ἐνδύσασθαι ἀφθαρσίαν, καὶ τὸ θνητὸν τοῦτο ἐνδύσασθαι ἀθανασίαν (dei gar to phtharton touto endysasthai aphtharsian, kai to thnēton touto endysasthai athanasian).

Here again, Paul uses the verb ἐνδύσασθαι (endysasthai) to describe the "putting on" of immortality at the resurrection. His longing is not to be without a body but to have his current body transformed into one that is incorruptible and immortal.

3. The State Between Death and Resurrection
Now, it is crucial to address the state between death and resurrection. While Paul does indeed long to be further clothed (at the resurrection), this does not negate the fact that believers are immediately present with the Lord after death, even while awaiting the resurrection of their glorified bodies.

In 2 Corinthians 5:8 (NKJV), Paul writes:

"We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord." Greek: θαρροῦμεν δὲ καὶ εὐδοκοῦμεν μᾶλλον ἐκδημῆσαι ἐκ τοῦ σώματος καὶ ἐνδημῆσαι πρὸς τὸν κύριον (tharroumen de kai eudokoumen mallon ekdēmēsai ek tou sōmatos kai endēmēsai pros ton Kyrion).

Here, the contrast between ἐκδημῆσαι (ekdēmēsai, "to be absent from the body") and ἐνδημῆσαι (endēmēsai, "to be present with the Lord") indicates an immediate transition. Paul does not expect to be in a state of "unclothed" existence (a disembodied soul in the Platonic sense) for a long period, but rather to be with the Lord after death, even before the full "clothing" of the resurrection body. This does not imply immortality at death but the believer's conscious presence with Christ while awaiting the final resurrection.

4. Conclusion: Context of Paul's Teaching
Paul's teaching in 2 Corinthians 5:4 emphasizes that his ultimate hope is to be "clothed" with immortality at the resurrection. However, this does not exclude the intermediate state, where the soul is consciously present with the Lord after death but before receiving the glorified body. Paul’s concern is not for a disembodied existence (being "unclothed") but for the full redemption of his body.

The Greek terms and syntax make it clear that Paul longs for the final resurrection but also looks forward to being with the Lord immediately upon death. His desire for the "further clothing" (ἐπενδύσασθαι) of immortality does not negate the reality that believers are consciously present with Christ even before this final event.

Therefore, your interpretation, which sees this passage only as referring to a future resurrection with no intermediate state, does not fully account for Paul’s emphasis on the immediate presence with the Lord in 2 Corinthians 5:8 and Philippians 1:23 F2F.

But now we have other members on the band wagon and will make this conversation extremely difficult brother.
Suffice to say, I stand by my position as it stands written in Scriptures.

Shalom.
J.

Here is what you need J.

Show me in Scripture where a person’s immortal soul or spirit as you would have it leaves a body and goes into Heaven.

You have proven above your position is totally unclear, so show me an ethereal spirit which is heaven bound.

I can show you 100 verse of those faithful being asleep in the Lord awaiting the resurrection but I am asking you to show me one verse which speaks to an immortal spirit leaving a dead body!

F2F

 

[tailgator]

People who believe in Heaven going should spend 12 months studying Daniel. They will be better off in more ways than one!

Maybe then the Revelation will start to make sense for them...

F2F

Yes,Daniel,revelation and the Olivet discourse all go hand in hand.
Daniel says the kingdom of God established after the beast is destroyed is literally under the heaven.

Daniel 7
27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.




This is the same kingdom under the heaven surrounded by Gog and his horde when fire comes down from heaven and destroys them in revelation 20.



Revelation 20
. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

 

[face2face]

@Johann

What about verse 10?

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be paid back according to what he has done while in the body, whether good or evil 2 Co 5:10.

When does Scripture teach that believers must appear before the Judgment Seat?
-Upon death?
-Upon resurrection?

What will faithful believers receive after judgment?

F2F

 

[rwb]

So you believe this kingdom given to Christ at his coming to earth is not on earth?
If this kingdom of the world is not on earth ,then where is it?

Luke 17:21 (KJV) Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

John 3:3 (KJV) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see [know] the kingdom of God.

John 3:5 (KJV) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

John 3:6-7 (KJV) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

The Kingdom of God that Christ came with is NOT a physical Kingdom, it is a spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven. We do not enter into the Kingdom physically, we enter it spiritually, through Christ's Spirit in us when we are born again of the Spirit. This is the Kingdom that is not now of this world, but shall come down from heaven when the seventh trumpet sounds that time given this earth whereby man must be born again, shall be no longer.

Revelation 10:5-7 (KJV) And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

 

[face2face]

The Kingdom of God that Christ came with is NOT a physical Kingdom, it is a spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven. We do not enter into the Kingdom physically, we enter it spiritually, through Christ's Spirit in us when we are born again of the Spirit.

It's actually a Spiritual Kingdom being prepared to come with and in Christ at his coming. It will translate into a physical Kingdom.

But Jesus answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I am working.” John 5:17

They are still working to bring this Kingdom into realisation on the Earth.

F2F

 

[rwb]

It's actually a Spiritual Kingdom being prepared to come with and in Christ at his coming. It will translate into a physical Kingdom.

But Jesus answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I am working.” John 5:17

They are still working to bring this Kingdom into realisation on the Earth.

F2F

I agree, His spiritual Kingdom will come down out of heaven! It just won't' be to this earth for one thousand years. For this earth shall be utterly consumed by the fire of God's wrath. The spiritual Kingdom of God that shall come down from heaven will come to the earth made new again through the cleansing fire from God.

 

[face2face]

@Johann believes Paul was seeking death so he could go to heaven
@F2F believes Paul was seeking the redemption of his body (due to the groaning in it!)

You know the context is speaking to the groaning in the tent and how Paul longed to have that divine nature.
The context supports this view.

F2F

 

[Johann]

For we groan while we are in this tent (sin's flesh), since we are weighed down (temptation, lust and desire) , because we do not want to be unclothed, but clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 2 Co 5:4.

In effect what you are saying is right now you already have Life - you don't

I believe you are missing my point F2F.

2Co_5:3-4 "Put it on" Paul often uses clothing as a metaphor for the spiritual life. The garment referred to here was the outer or upper tunic (ependutçs, cf. Joh_21:7). He used clothing as a metaphor for a person's lifestyle choices. Believers are encouraged to take off the old life and lay it aside like a garment (cf. 2Co_3:8-9; Eph_4:22; Eph_4:25; Eph_4:31; Jas_1:21; 1Pe_2:1). They are to put on Christ (cf. 2Co_3:10; 2Co_3:12; 2Co_3:14; Eph_4:24; Rom_13:14; Gal_3:27).

These believers were once controlled and dominated by their evil desires, but now, through Christ, they can turn from them (cf. Romans 5-6). This terminology of putting on Christ may have even been connected to the ordinance of baptism in the early church, where new converts put on clean, white clothing after baptism.

Paul did not want to experience a disembodied state between death and the resurrection, but wanted to participate in the events related to the Second Coming (cf. 1Th_4:15-17), one of which is the new spiritual body.

The theological concept of a disembodied state is not specifically stated in Scripture, but is only a reluctant implication because the concept was used in Greek philosophy as a permanent state conceived of as superior to physical embodiment.

In Word Pictures in the New Testament A. T. Robertson says "Paul does not wish to be a mere disembodied spirit with his spiritual garment" (vol. 4, p. 228).

The following is a brief note from my commentary, vol. 7, 1Th_4:16 (see www.freebiblecommentary.org).

"'And the dead in Christ will rise first' This phrase causes confusion about where the dead go between their death and resurrection day. This verse implies that they will remain in the grave (cf. Mat_27:52-53).

However, 2Co_5:8 implies that they are with the Lord. !

The solution may be in postulating a disembodied state. The physical body remains in the grave, the life force goes to be with the Lord. There are many unanswered questions here. The Bible does not provide a clear teaching passage on this subject.

Most translations translate it as if the saints are with God/Jesus and return with Him (cf. NASB). Another view is found in TEV, "Those who have died believing in Christ will rise to life first."

I will disengage the conversation here, there is much more but not here to go into a circular reasoning.
Shalom.
J.

 

[face2face]

I agree, His spiritual Kingdom will come down out of heaven!

Correct

It just won't' be to this earth for one thousand years.

No, after this we are told God will be all and in all.

For this earth shall be utterly consumed by the fire of God's wrath.

No, a cleansing will take place but its clear there will be mortal inhabitants in the earth after these events take place.

You are responding to the exaggeration which the Bible uses to instil fear into the believer.

The spiritual Kingdom of God that shall come down from heaven will come to the earth made new again through the cleansing fire from God.

How so when Israel is to be transformed into a place of wonder and delight?

F2F

 

[face2face]

I believe you are missing my point F2F.

2Co_5:3-4 "Put it on" Paul often uses clothing as a metaphor for the spiritual life. The garment referred to here was the outer or upper tunic (ependutçs, cf. Joh_21:7). He used clothing as a metaphor for a person's lifestyle choices. Believers are encouraged to take off the old life and lay it aside like a garment (cf. 2Co_3:8-9; Eph_4:22; Eph_4:25; Eph_4:31; Jas_1:21; 1Pe_2:1). They are to put on Christ (cf. 2Co_3:10; 2Co_3:12; 2Co_3:14; Eph_4:24; Rom_13:14; Gal_3:27).

Johann

15:53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 15:54 Now when this perishable puts on the imperishable, and this mortal puts on immortality, then the saying that is written will happen, 1 Co 15:53–54.

The vile body will have immortality put on - externally given and changed

F2F

You believe you already have immortality - you dont!

 

[rwb]

No, after this we are told God will be all and in all.

No, a cleansing will take place but its clear there will be mortal inhabitants in the earth after these events take place.

You are responding to the exaggeration which the Bible uses to instil fear into the believer.


How so when Israel is to be transformed into a place of wonder and delight?

F2F

It's useless to argue against one's opinions. Since you've not offered a single verse to support your opinions, I'll no further engage in this debate with you.

 

[face2face]

@Johann

"Not that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life." (vs 4).

The Apostle Paul contrasts two states, mortality and life, (in 1 Cor. 15:44 he calls the two states "a natural body and a spiritual body") but he never desires disembodiment.

"Mortality . . . swallowed up of life" (2 Cor. 5:4) is synonymous with his earlier words, "We shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump. . . for this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." (1 Cor. 15: 51-53).

You are not listening to Pauls teaching but rather your many commentaries!

F2F

 

[face2face]

It's useless to argue against one's opinions. Since you've not offered a single verse to support your opinions, I'll no further engage in this debate with you.

That's a fair call, I'm in discussions with Johann and I'm not paying you the respect you deserve. Apologies.

Maybe we park this for now and I'll come back to it like I have done tonight with Johann

F2F

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The first thing to note is what verse 11 does not say.

Luke 19:11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.

This verse does not say the kingdom of God will never appear. It just won't immediately appear like they were assuming it should and the very next verse tells us the reasons why.

Luke 19:12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

Obviously, the kingdom can't immediately appear if Jesus has to go away first, then receive a kingdom for Himself, then return.

Let's fast forward to the following for a moment.

Luke 19:15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.

It is undeniable, this is when the kingdom literally appears. Anyone that would argue otherwise are arguing nonsense, as if there will never be a kingdom one can literally behold with their own eyes once Jesus returns. Of course there will be. Now that that's out of the way, let's look at verse 13 next.

Luke 19:13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.

To understand this part is simple. This is meaning from the time of His ascension through His return in the end of this age. That is when He comes, thus returns. In the meantime He is bodily in heaven. I don't want to get into the purpose of the 10 pounds since everyone can draw their own conclusions about that. What I do want to focus on though, thus will be the main focus of the OP, which I feel is relevant per this endless Premil vs. Amil debate is how Jesus rewards these when He returns that He entrusted with this 10 pounds. I'll get to that later. First let's look at verse 14 next.

Luke 19:14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.

Who should we assume His citizens are meaning here? Because whoever they are meaning, it is not until Jesus returns that they are dealt with.

Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

This can't possibly be meaning the unbelieving Jews that were destroyed in 70 AD. Verse 27 is not meaning 70 AD, it is meaning after He has bodily returned, thus after He has stepped foot back on this planet, the same planet some Amils have literally engulfed in flames when Christ returns.

Where does this say He has stepped foot back on this planet at that point? I believe verse 27 is talking about the judgment, which does not take place in heaven or on earth (Rev 20:11) which is when He will have His enemies cast into the lake of fire.

There is a similar parable to that one in Matthew 25:14-30. This is what Jesus says regarding His enemies in that parable:

Matthew 25:30 And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

So, them being slayed before Him would involve them being cast "where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth".

Jesus talked about that here as well:

Matthew 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

So, the time when this happens is at the judgment when His enemies are cast away from heaven where there is "wailing and gnashing of teeth", which is referred to as outer darkness (Matt 25:30), a furnace of fire (Matt 13:42), everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels (Matt 25:41) and the lake of fire (Rev 20:15).

You are conflating the physical destruction that will occur when Christ returns with the punishment that His enemies will receive in the judgment that will occur at that point. Meanwhile, believers will receive eternal rewards at that time.

In no way, shape or form does that parable from Luke 19 support premil.

Not to mention, if true, well there goes the entire animal kingdom then, since there is no ark to preserve them this time around. Which is really bizarre that God felt a need to preserve the animal kingdom during the flood but no longer finds the need to preserve them when Christ returns.

This is a really strange thing to be concerned about. Do you think animals have souls? Why is this a concern for you?

He just burns them all up instead. And it wouldn't surprise me if some of these Amils think there will be animals on the new earth. Talk about contradictions.

You're just making things up at this point. You can't support premil with scripture, so you resort to nonsense like this instead.

There are going to be animals on the new earth except God burned all of the animals up when He returned.

No one who interprets 2 Peter 3:10-12 would say that any animals will survive what is described there.

Not to mention, infants being burned alive, children being burned alive, etc. After all, He never spared any of those during the flood so why would He spare them this time around, right? This assuming these Amils are correct that the entire planet is engulfed in flames when He returns.

Who even said any of this? Why are you just making things up without even talking to Amils to see what we believe about this? Who told you that you should be the spokesperson for Amil? Please do not try to speak for me or any other Amil. God is just and He will do as He sees fit as it concerns infants and children. In the case of the flood, He decided to start all over with one family. Though babies and infants were killed in the flood, it doesn't mean they were damned to hell. At Christ's return, it's not a case of starting over, it's a case of bringing in eternity, so it's not exactly the same type of scenario.

BTW, all of these things are relevant if there is going to be a 1000 year era of time following Christ's return. Can't have an era of time like that if the entire planet is literally engulfed in flames when Christ returns.

How do you interpret these passages:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Thus the reason I brought some of those things up, that it doesn't make sense that the entire planet is literally engulfed in flames when Christ returns when there has to be an era of time to still fulfill after Christ has returned.

No, there doesn't. That's your assumption, but scripture does not support that.

 

[Johann]

It's useless to argue against one's opinions. Since you've not offered a single verse to support your opinions, I'll no further engage in this debate with you.

Just as I thought, everything's fine until the first big disagreement-then everything falls apart. I'm stepping away from this debate as well.
I am also disappointed for the lack of Scripture references.
Shalom Y'all.
J.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yet, Jesus is rewarding some with authority over things when He returns. For what reason if things should be understood as you laid them out here? He is giving them authority over what? Let's not forget what 'authority' means in general. Having authority over something demands that there has to be something to have authority over. If there is no one remaining but the righteous saved, why would they need authority over anything when everyone should be pretty much equal if everyone is an immortal body state, and that they are all among the saved, meaning humans in this case?

Granted, some get better and more rewards than others do. I get that.

If you get that, then why can't you get that some will have more authority than others? Some angels have more authority than others, right? Using your logic, we'd conclude that there's no reason for that.

But I don't see that pertaining to having authority over something. The parable says they are granted authority over cites, except I admit I don't know what that might look like.

No one knows exactly what that means yet. Scripture does not give us a lot of details about how things will be in eternity. That's no reason to reject Amil just because we don't have that information.

I'm assuming literal cities are likely not meant, but then again, who knows,

It's a parable. Of course that isn't what it means.

maybe literal cities are meant, especially if Premil is true, which would mean there are cities worldwide to look after.

How could it mean literal cities when it's a parable? You don't seem to understand how parables work.

 

[Johann]

You are not listening to Pauls teaching but rather your many commentaries!

Disappointing.
J.

 

[uncle silas]

I agree, His spiritual Kingdom will come down out of heaven! It just won't' be to this earth for one thousand years. For this earth shall be utterly consumed by the fire of God's wrath. The spiritual Kingdom of God that shall come down from heaven will come to the earth made new again through the cleansing fire from God.

When I first read of a third of the sun and moon not shining on the earth, in revelation, I used to imagine, as a child, God covering a third of the sun and moon with his hand. He would directly do it. Now, man has the ability to achieve that themself. So, the biblical prophecy, could be seen as coming to fruition through what man does, not what God directly does.
Man also has the ability to change this world completely, reset it if you like, a third of the earth would result in being covered in darkness, and a third of the land and trees could be burned up too. The world would see horrors unequalled since its creation and never to be seen again
All I'm saying is, biblical prophecy can be brought to fruition by the actions of man, it doesnt have to be directly by God Himself, does that make sense?