Some key points pertaining to the parable per Luke 19:11-27.

[face2face]

Till we have our first moment of "intense fellowship?" -that is disagreement?
Lol!

I need strong coffee, black.
J.

I need to go back and respond to that post you did last night.
I just had a cup of home made veggie soup
F2F

 

[Johann]

I need to go back and respond to that post you did last night.
I just had a cup of home made veggie soup
F2F

I just had my oats, took my supplements, and had my coffee. I already know which Scripture you're going to quote to challenge the idea that believers are immediately with the Lord after death.
J.

 

[face2face]

I just had my oats, took my supplements, and had my coffee. I already know which Scripture you're going to quote to challenge the idea that believers are immediately with the Lord after death.
J.

Can't find that post of yours.

Believers are not immediately with the Lord after death.

The Apostles are very clear the reward is at the appearing of Christ upon his return.

You know the Scripture.

F2F

 

[Johann]

Can't find that post of yours.

Believers are not immediately with the Lord after death.

The Apostles are very clear the reward is at the appearing of Christ upon his return.

You know the Scripture.

F2F

The belief that believers are with the Lord immediately after death is grounded in Scripture. Consider Paul's words in 2 Corinthians 5:8 (NKJV), where he says, "We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord." This suggests that when a believer dies, they are immediately with Christ, no waiting period until His return.

Similarly, Philippians 1:23-24 (NKJV) shows Paul’s longing "to depart and be with Christ, which is far better." If believers were to remain in a state of unconsciousness or in the grave until Christ’s return, Paul wouldn’t express a desire to immediately be with Christ upon death. His words point to an immediate transition into the presence of the Lord.

Now, regarding the reward at Christ's return, passages like 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 speak of the bodily resurrection and the reunion of all believers with the Lord at His second coming. This does not contradict the immediate presence of the soul with Christ upon death; rather, it highlights that the full glorification of both body and soul happens at His return.

As for the Early Church Fathers (ECF), many held to the belief that the souls of the righteous are immediately taken to paradise. For example, Irenaeus taught that souls of the righteous go to a place of rest while awaiting the final resurrection. Similarly, Tertullian said the souls of the faithful “are in paradise” awaiting their resurrected bodies. This aligns with the idea that believers are indeed with the Lord but will receive the final reward of bodily resurrection at His return.

So, while it’s true that the ultimate glorification happens at the Second Coming, Scripture and early church writings affirm that believers are already in the presence of the Lord upon death.

What say you? I work with the Scriptures brother.
J.

 

[Johann]

It’s hard for our finite minds to conceive of eternity — or for that matter, anything outside of our routine experience in this temporal realm. In spite of the pictorial language employed by the biblical authors, it can be difficult for us to form a clear concept of heaven, or understand what it will be like to pass through death and into eternity.

And whenever the topic turns to our eternal home, certain questions are appropriate. Someone inevitably asks about the state of believers who die before the final consummation of all things. Do believers who die receive temporary bodies until the resurrection? Are there compartments within heaven? Where did Old Testament believers go when they died? And what about purgatory — is it real?

A number of speculative views have been proposed to attempt to answer those questions. With regard to the state of Old Testament believers, for example, some teach that before Calvary, Hades (the realm of the dead) was divided into two sections — one for the wicked and one for the righteous. They suggest that Old Testament saints who died went to the realm called “Abraham’s bosom” (cf. Luke 16:22–23) — a sort of holding tank. According to this theory, these believers were kept in that compartment of Hades and not brought into the heaven of heavens until Christ conquered death in His resurrection.

Most of that is sheer conjecture with little if any biblical support. Wilbur Smith writes, “However abundant the Scriptural data might be regarding the resurrection of believers and their life in heaven, the state of the soul between death and resurrection is rarely referred to in the Bible.” Scripture simply does not give much information about the intermediate state. But what we do know from Scripture is enough to debunk wrong theories.

Soul Sleep
One view held by many is that the soul of a believer who dies remains unconscious until the resurrection. This view is found in some of the noncanonical writings of the early church. Its best-known advocates today are the Seventh-Day Adventists. They point out that the word “sleep” is often used in Scripture as a synonym for death. For example, Jesus told the disciples, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep” (John 11:11). And Paul described the dead in Christ as “those who have fallen asleep in Jesus” (1 Thessalonians 4:14).

But the sleep referred to in such imagery has to do with the body, not the soul. In his account of the crucifixion, Matthew wrote of a great earthquake: “The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised” (Matthew 27:52). It is the body, not the soul, that “sleeps” in death. The body lies in rest, utterly devoid of any sensation or awareness, awaiting reconstitution and resurrection in eternal perfection to join the soul that is already in heaven. But the soul never sleeps — it enters the very presence of the Lord at the moment of death. This was affirmed again and again by the apostle Paul as he described his desire to be absent from the body, so that he could be “at home with the Lord” (2 Corinthians 5:8; Philippians 1:23).

The souls of the departed enter into their rest. But it is a rest from labor and strife, not a rest of unconsciousness. The apostle John said of the righteous dead that they “rest from their labors” (Revelation 14:13). Yet he is clearly not describing a rest of unconscious sleep; in the scene John witnessed in heaven, the souls of the redeemed were there, actively singing and praising God (Revelation 14:1–4).

Everything Scripture says about the death of believers indicates that they are immediately ushered consciously into the Lord’s presence. In the words of the Westminster Confession of Faith:

The bodies of men after death return to dust, and see corruption; but their souls, (which neither die nor sleep,) having an immortal subsistence, immediately return to God who gave them. The souls of the righteous, being then made perfect in holiness, are received into the highest heavens, where they behold the face of God in light and glory, waiting for the full redemption of their bodies.

What Happens When Believers Die?

www.masters.edu

 

[rwb]

The first thing to note is what verse 11 does not say.

Luke 19:11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.

This verse does not say the kingdom of God will never appear. It just won't immediately appear like they were assuming it should and the very next verse tells us the reasons why.

Luke 19:12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

Obviously, the kingdom can't immediately appear if Jesus has to go away first, then receive a kingdom for Himself, then return.

Let's fast forward to the following for a moment.

Luke 19:15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.

It is undeniable, this is when the kingdom literally appears. Anyone that would argue otherwise are arguing nonsense, as if there will never be a kingdom one can literally behold with their own eyes once Jesus returns. Of course there will be. Now that that's out of the way, let's look at verse 13 next.

Luke 19:13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.

To understand this part is simple. This is meaning from the time of His ascension through His return in the end of this age. That is when He comes, thus returns. In the meantime He is bodily in heaven. I don't want to get into the purpose of the 10 pounds since everyone can draw their own conclusions about that. What I do want to focus on though, thus will be the main focus of the OP, which I feel is relevant per this endless Premil vs. Amil debate is how Jesus rewards these when He returns that He entrusted with this 10 pounds. I'll get to that later. First let's look at verse 14 next.

Luke 19:14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.

Who should we assume His citizens are meaning here? Because whoever they are meaning, it is not until Jesus returns that they are dealt with.

Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

This can't possibly be meaning the unbelieving Jews that were destroyed in 70 AD. Verse 27 is not meaning 70 AD, it is meaning after He has bodily returned, thus after He has stepped foot back on this planet, the same planet some Amils have literally engulfed in flames when Christ returns.

Not to mention, if true, well there goes the entire animal kingdom then, since there is no ark to preserve them this time around. Which is really bizarre that God felt a need to preserve the animal kingdom during the flood but no longer finds the need to preserve them when Christ returns. He just burns them all up instead. And it wouldn't surprise me if some of these Amils think there will be animals on the new earth. Talk about contradictions. There are going to be animals on the new earth except God burned all of the animals up when He returned.

Not to mention, infants being burned alive, children being burned alive, etc. After all, He never spared any of those during the flood so why would He spare them this time around, right? This assuming these Amils are correct that the entire planet is engulfed in flames when He returns.

BTW, all of these things are relevant if there is going to be a 1000 year era of time following Christ's return. Can't have an era of time like that if the entire planet is literally engulfed in flames when Christ returns. Thus the reason I brought some of those things up, that it doesn't make sense that the entire planet is literally engulfed in flames when Christ returns when there has to be an era of time to still fulfill after Christ has returned.

Do you know the difference between that which is forever and that which can only be temporary?

 

[Johann]

The intermediate state is the time in which the spirit, or soul, of the believer exists between physical death and the resurrection of the body. Though the Bible does not have a whole lot to say concerning the intermediate state of the believer, there are some basic conclusions we can make.

Spirits With God

The spirits of departed believers are with the Lord. The Bible says.

Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it (Ecclesiastes 12:7).

The writer to the Hebrews says.

and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect (Hebrews 12:23).

Christ's Presence

At death, the spirit of the believer enters into Christ's presence. Jesus promised the dying robber on the cross that he would be with Him immediately after death.

And Jesus said to him, 'Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise' (Luke 23:43).

Immediately Present

The Apostle Paul also taught that believers would be in Christ's presence upon their death.

For we know that if our earthly house, this tent is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed, we shall not be found naked. . . We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:1,2,8).

Paul wrote to the church at Philippi.

For I am hard pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better (Philippians 1:23).

Paul says that his death would be far better for him than remaining alive because he would be in the presence of Christ.

Be With Jesus

Jesus talked about believers being with Him in the next world.

Father, I desire that those also, whom You have given Me, may be with Me where I am, to see My glory, which You have given Me because you loved Me before the foundation of the world (John 17:24).

Stephen

Upon his death, the martyr Stephen called upon Jesus to receive his spirit.

And he [Stephen], being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, and said, 'Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!'. . . And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, 'Lord Jesus, receive my spirit' (Acts 7:55,56, 59).

The usual picture of Jesus is sitting on the right hand of God the Father. But when Stephen was about to die, Jesus stood to welcome him into God's presence. This is another indication that the believing dead go immediately to be with Christ.

Not Place Of Final Reward

The intermediate state is not the place of final reward for the believer. Final rewards will occur after the resurrection - which is still future. Though Christians who die go to be with the Lord, this is not when they receive their final reward, or their resurrection body.

Conscious

Believers are in a state of awareness after death. Jesus told the religious leaders in His day that God was the God of the living. He reminded them what God had said to Moses.

I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living (Matthew 22:32).

With God

When the beggar Lazarus died, the Scripture says.

So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. And the rich man died and he was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side (Luke 16:22,23).

The rich man in Hades saw both Lazarus and Abraham. Each were in a better place.

Live Together

Paul told the church at Thessalonica that believers will always be with the Lord.

Who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him (1 Thessalonians 5:10).

Rest And Blessedness

Believers who die are in a restful state. The Bible says.

When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the Word of the Lord and for the testimony they held. And they cried with a loud voice saying, 'How long O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?' And a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants, and their comrades, who would be killed as they were, was completed (Revelation 6:9-11).

Those with the Lord are also blessed.

And I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, 'Write: 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.' Yes, says the Spirit, 'that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them' (Revelation 14:13).

What Happens to a Believer after Death?

The intermediate state is the time in which the spirit, or soul, of the believer exists between physical death and the resurrection of the body. Though the

www.blueletterbible.org

I will await a response from you F2F.

 

[face2face]

The belief that believers are with the Lord immediately after death is grounded in Scripture. Consider Paul's words in 2 Corinthians 5:8 (NKJV), where he says, "We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord." This suggests that when a believer dies, they are immediately with Christ, no waiting period until His return.

Firstly, you didn't take me to the OT and for good reason.

Secondly, you need to read and consider carefully the context to verse 8.

5:2 For in this earthly house we groan, because we desire to put on our heavenly dwelling, 2 Co 5:2.

(Also see Peters teaching on putting on Divine Nature at the return of Christ)

Paul is saying he would rather fall asleep in the Lord and awake knowing in that next moment he will have Christ put immortality on him!

You mistakenly assume Paul is implying he has an immortal essense already which is not what he is saying.

The following passages indicate the teaching of the Apostle Paul in relation to 2 Corinthians 5

1. Sleep of death - 1 Cor 15:6,18,20,51 (compare Dan: 12:2); 1 Thess. 4:13,14.
2. The Resurrection and judgment - 2 Tim. 4:1,8; 2 Cor 4:14 compare 2 Corinth 5:10.

Your position excludes all these very clear and concise facts about the state of the dead.

The key for you J. is found in the words "put on" and how this relates to the Elect being raised (or gathered) and then judged followed by the putting on of immortality.

Plenty there for you to review.

F2F

 

[face2face]

Similarly, Philippians 1:23-24 (NKJV) shows Paul’s longing "to depart and be with Christ, which is far better." If believers were to remain in a state of unconsciousness or in the grave until Christ’s return, Paul wouldn’t express a desire to immediately be with Christ upon death. His words point to an immediate transition into the presence of the Lord.

You have some big hurdles here J.

Firstly it states "Until the day of Jesus Christ." (Phil. 1:6,10; 2:16).

Then, if by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead." (Phil. 3:11).

"We look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body. . . " (Phil. 3:20-21).

There is no leaving our body J. the whole point is having it changed - put on immortality!

F2F

 

[face2face]

Now, regarding the reward at Christ's return, passages like 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 speak of the bodily resurrection and the reunion of all believers with the Lord at His second coming. This does not contradict the immediate presence of the soul with Christ upon death; rather, it highlights that the full glorification of both body and soul happens at His return.

It's not often a person provides evidence to overcome their own doctrine but this is what you have done J.

We seek immortality J. we don't already have it!

F2F

 

[Johann]

It's not often a person provides evidence to overcome their own doctrine but this is what you have done J.

We seek immortality J. we don't already have it!

F2F

I believe I have presented you Scriptural evidence where the believer in Messiah go upon death brother-not proof texting to fit my own narrative.

Should you wish, we can go through this using the Scriptures.
J.

 

[face2face]

I believe I have presented you Scriptural evidence where the believer in Messiah go upon death brother-not proof texting to fit my own narrative.

Should you wish, we can go through this using the Scriptures.
J.

There are just so many holes in this view and it doesn't fit the context.

Thus we are full of courage and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 2 Co 5:7–8.

To be "unclothed" does not mean to leave behind the mortal body and depart as an immortal soul or spirit. If it did, Paul would have desired to be "unclothed!!!"

But what does he say?

"not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon that mortality might be swallowed up of life." (vs. 4).

For we groan while we are in this tent (sin's flesh), since we are weighed down (temptation, lust and desire) , because we do NOT want to be unclothed, but clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 2 Co 5:4.

He is clearly speaking about the sleep in Christ followed by the putting on of immortality.

Your understanding does not fit the context and meaning of Paul's teaching, both here and elsewhere in the text.

F2F

 

[face2face]

I believe I have presented you Scriptural evidence where the believer in Messiah go upon death brother-not proof texting to fit my own narrative.

Should you wish, we can go through this using the Scriptures.
J.

You would have to agree this response is less than satisfactory, given I've answered you proof text and provided a more complete understanding from verses and sections within the Epistles you have quoted.

It feels like you have given up already and the night is only young.

F2F

 

[rwb]

Let's get on the same page here at least. First of all, as pertaining to a literal kingdom. the parable is involving after Christ has returned, in regards to a kingdom. You would have us believe that there is no literal kingdom, one that one can touch, see with their own eyes, after Christ has returned? THat everyone forever still has to live by faith not sight? IOW, let's don't conflate the here and now with that of His bodily return in the future. That is being dishonest, IMO, unless one can convincingly prove there will never be a literal kingdom to behold with one's own eyes after Christ has returned.

Do you believe in the Kingdom of God that Christ says, "But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you."? I assume you would say that you do believe in the Kingdom of God that Christ says has come when He cast out evil spirits that possessed some. Was the Kingdom of God Christ says has come upon the world visible? Could it be physically touched?

Your stuck in a physical world, still looking for the physical appearing of the Kingdom of God. The Kingdom of God that has come with Christ is NOT a physical Kingdom for this world. In this world the Kingdom of God that shall be forever could exist no more than one thousand years if it were to be a physical Kingdom on this earth.

I know that premillennialists want us to believe one thousand physical years is only the beginning for what shall be the everlasting physical Kingdom of God on this earth. But you have a heck of a time twisting and contorting the Scriptures trying to prove what you allege. That's why the doctrine of premillennialism shall NEVER be palatable to who understand the Kingdom of God that Christ has ushered in is His spiritual Kingdom in heaven. And when the Kingdom of God in heaven is complete, then the Kingdom of God will come down from heaven a physical Kingdom of God that shall be on the new earth that will be forever.

 

[tailgator]

The belief that believers are with the Lord immediately after death is grounded in Scripture. Consider Paul's words in 2 Corinthians 5:8 (NKJV), where he says, "We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord." This suggests that when a believer dies, they are immediately with Christ, no waiting period until His return.

Similarly, Philippians 1:23-24 (NKJV) shows Paul’s longing "to depart and be with Christ, which is far better." If believers were to remain in a state of unconsciousness or in the grave until Christ’s return, Paul wouldn’t express a desire to immediately be with Christ upon death. His words point to an immediate transition into the presence of the Lord.

Now, regarding the reward at Christ's return, passages like 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 speak of the bodily resurrection and the reunion of all believers with the Lord at His second coming. This does not contradict the immediate presence of the soul with Christ upon death; rather, it highlights that the full glorification of both body and soul happens at His return.

As for the Early Church Fathers (ECF), many held to the belief that the souls of the righteous are immediately taken to paradise. For example, Irenaeus taught that souls of the righteous go to a place of rest while awaiting the final resurrection. Similarly, Tertullian said the souls of the faithful “are in paradise” awaiting their resurrected bodies. This aligns with the idea that believers are indeed with the Lord but will receive the final reward of bodily resurrection at His return.

So, while it’s true that the ultimate glorification happens at the Second Coming, Scripture and early church writings affirm that believers are already in the presence of the Lord upon death.

What say you? I work with the Scriptures brother.
J.

The dead are not raised till the last trump.
That is when the prophets and saints recieve their reward.

"The time has come for judging the dead,
and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your people who revere your name,
both great and small—"



Revelation 11
15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

“The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”
16 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:

“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
the One who is and who was,
because you have taken your great power
and have begun to reign.
18 The nations were angry,
and your wrath has come.
The time has come for judging the dead,
and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your people who revere your name,
both great and small—
and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

 

[Johann]

5:2 For in this earthly house we groan, because we desire to put on our heavenly dwelling, 2 Co 5:2.

(Also see Peters teaching on putting on Divine Nature at the return of Christ)

Paul is saying he would rather fall asleep in the Lord and awake knowing in that next moment he will have Christ put immortality on him!

You mistakenly assume Paul is implying he has an immortal essense already which is not what he is saying.

The following passages indicate the teaching of the Apostle Paul in relation to 2 Corinthians 5

1. Sleep of death - 1 Cor 15:6,18,20,51 (compare Dan: 12:2); 1 Thess. 4:13,14.
2. The Resurrection and judgment - 2 Tim. 4:1,8; 2 Cor 4:14 compare 2 Corinth 5:10.

Your position excludes all these very clear and concise facts about the state of the dead.

The key for you J. is found in the words "put on" and how this relates to the Elect being raised (or gathered) and then judged followed by the putting on of immortality.

Wow!

First, I agree that the putting on of immortality happens at the resurrection. In 1 Corinthians 15:53 (NKJV), Paul writes:

“For this corruptible must put on [ἐνδύσασθαι, endysasthai] incorruption, and this mortal must put on [ἐνδύσασθαι] immortality.”

The verb ἐνδύσασθαι ("put on") refers to being clothed or covered, indicating that immortality is something we will put on at the resurrection. However, this does not preclude the believer from being with Christ before this glorification.

1. Being with the Lord after death (2 Corinthians 5:8)
In 2 Corinthians 5:8 (NKJV), Paul says:

"We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord."
Greek: εὐδοκοῦμεν δὲ μᾶλλον ἐκδημῆσαι ἐκ τοῦ σώματος καὶ ἐνδημῆσαι πρὸς τὸν κύριον (eudokoumen de mallon ekdēmēsai ek tou sōmatos kai endēmēsai pros ton Kyrion).

Let’s break this down:

ἐκδημῆσαι (ekdēmēsai) – "to be away from" or "absent from" the body.
ἐνδημῆσαι (endēmēsai) – "to be at home with" or "present with" the Lord.

Paul uses two key verbs in contrast: ἐκδημῆσαι (absent from the body) and ἐνδημῆσαι (present with the Lord), indicating an immediate transition from one state to the other.

There's no suggestion of a delay or intermediate state of unconsciousness here. Paul expresses that upon leaving the body, one is "at home" or "present" with the Lord.

In Philippians 1:23-24 (NKJV), Paul writes:

"For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better." Greek: τὴν ἐπιθυμίαν ἔχων εἰς τὸ ἀναλῦσαι καὶ σὺν Χριστῷ εἶναι (ten epithymian echōn eis to analysai kai syn Christō einai).

The verb ἀναλῦσαι (analysai), translated as "to depart," carries the idea of "untying" or "loosening" like a ship leaving its moorings. Paul expects this departure to lead him to σὺν Χριστῷ εἶναι (syn Christō einai), "to be with Christ." He views this as an immediate reality after death.

2. "Sleep" as a metaphor for death
You referenced 1 Corinthians 15:6,18,20,51 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-14, where Paul uses the term "sleep" (Greek: κοιμάομαι, koimaomai) to describe death. This is a common metaphor in Jewish and early Christian writings, describing the body in a state of rest.

In John 11:11, Jesus says,

"Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep"
Greek: Λάζαρος ὁ φίλος ἡμῶν κεκοίμηται (Lazaros ho philos hēmōn kekoimētai).

He then clarifies in verse 14:

"Lazarus is dead"
Greek: Λάζαρος ἀπέθανεν (Lazaros apethanen).

The use of "sleep" is a metaphor for the body’s rest in the grave, while the soul remains alive, awaiting the resurrection. In the Greek mindset, κοιμάομαι (koimaomai) points to the temporary nature of death for believers, emphasizing that it’s not a final state.

3. Resurrection and Judgment
In 2 Timothy 4:1,8 and 2 Corinthians 5:10, Paul speaks of the future resurrection and judgment. These passages affirm the final reward and bodily resurrection at Christ’s return, but they do not deny the intermediate state where believers are with the Lord.

For example, in 2 Corinthians 4:14 (NKJV), Paul says:

"Knowing that He who raised up the Lord Jesus will also raise us up with Jesus."
Greek: εἰδότες ὅτι ὁ ἐγείρας τὸν κύριον Ἰησοῦν καὶ ἡμᾶς σὺν Ἰησοῦν ἐγερεῖ (eidotes hoti ho egeiras ton Kyrion Iēsoun kai hēmas syn Iēsoun egerei).

Here, Paul speaks of the future resurrection, using the verb ἐγερεῖ (egerei, "will raise up"), showing that our final bodily resurrection occurs at Christ’s return. But this speaks to the body, not the soul, which is already present with Christ.

4. "Put on" and the state of the dead
You mentioned 1 Corinthians 15:53 and 2 Corinthians 5:2 regarding the "putting on" of immortality. In 2 Corinthians 5:2-4, Paul speaks of groaning in our earthly body, desiring to be clothed in our heavenly dwelling:

"For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling"
Greek: ἐνδῦσασθαι τὴν οἰκητηριον ἡμῶν τὴν ἐξ οὐρανοῦ (endysasthai tēn oikētērion hēmōn tēn ex ouranou).

Paul uses the verb ἐνδῦσασθαι (endysasthai, "to put on") to describe being clothed with our heavenly body. This speaks of the final glorification of believers at the resurrection. However, in verses 6-8, Paul indicates that even before this, believers are "with the Lord" when absent from the body.


Paul’s use of ἐκδημῆσαι (ekdēmēsai, to be absent) and ἐνδημῆσαι (endēmēsai, to be present) in 2 Corinthians 5:8, along with ἀναλῦσαι (analysai, to depart) in Philippians 1:23, strongly suggests that believers are with Christ in the intermediate state. While we await the future "putting on" of immortality, Paul’s syntax makes it clear that the soul is immediately with Christ after death, even before the bodily resurrection. This harmonizes with the hope of both the immediate presence with the Lord and the future resurrection when believers will "put on" their glorified bodies.

Does it make sense?
J.

 

[face2face]

@Johann

For we groan while we are in this tent (sin's flesh), since we are weighed down (temptation, lust and desire) , because we do not want to be unclothed, but clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 2 Co 5:4.

In effect what you are saying is right now you already have Life - you don't

F2F

 

[face2face]

The dead are not raised till the last trump.
That is when the prophets and saints recieve their reward.

"The time has come for judging the dead,
and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your people who revere your name,
both great and small—"



Revelation 11
15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

“The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”
16 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:

“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
the One who is and who was,
because you have taken your great power
and have begun to reign.
18 The nations were angry,
and your wrath has come.
The time has come for judging the dead,
and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your people who revere your name,
both great and small—
and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

Correct.

This is what Paul look forward to, but a future time!

2 Timothy 4:7-8 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness (represents immortality) , which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.

That same day that Hebrews 11:40 speaks of

F2F

 

[tailgator]

Do you believe in the Kingdom of God that Christ says, "But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you."? I assume you would say that you do believe in the Kingdom of God that Christ says has come when He cast out evil spirits that possessed some. Was the Kingdom of God Christ says has come upon the world visible? Could it be physically touched?

Your stuck in a physical world, still looking for the physical appearing of the Kingdom of God. The Kingdom of God that has come with Christ is NOT a physical Kingdom for this world. In this world the Kingdom of God that shall be forever could exist no more than one thousand years if it were to be a physical Kingdom on this earth.

I know that premillennialists want us to believe one thousand physical years is only the beginning for what shall be the everlasting physical Kingdom of God on this earth. But you have a heck of a time twisting and contorting the Scriptures trying to prove what you allege. That's why the doctrine of premillennialism shall NEVER be palatable to who understand the Kingdom of God that Christ has ushered in is His spiritual Kingdom in heaven. And when the Kingdom of God in heaven is complete, then the Kingdom of God will come down from heaven a physical Kingdom of God that shall be on the new earth that will be forever.

So you believe this kingdom given to Christ at his coming to earth is not on earth?
If this kingdom of the world is not on earth ,then where is it?


Revelation 11
15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

“The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”
16 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:

“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
the One who is and who was,
because you have taken your great power
and have begun to reign.
18 The nations were angry,
and your wrath has come.
The time has come for judging the dead,
and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your people who revere your name,
both great and small—
and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

 

[face2face]

So you believe this kingdom given to Christ at his coming to earth is not on earth?
If this kingdom of the world is not on earth ,then where is it?


Revelation 11
15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

“The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”
16 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:

“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
the One who is and who was,
because you have taken your great power
and have begun to reign.
18 The nations were angry,
and your wrath has come.
The time has come for judging the dead,
and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your people who revere your name,
both great and small—
and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

People who believe in Heaven going should spend 12 months studying Daniel. They will be better off in more ways than one!

Maybe then the Revelation will start to make sense for them...

F2F