Some key points pertaining to the parable per Luke 19:11-27.

[IndianaRob]

And these all were commended for their faith, yet they did not receive what was promised. 11:40 For God had provided something better for us, so that they would be made perfect together with us. Heb 11:39–40.

Can you see it?

Yes they were looking for a city whose builder and maker was God. That city was heavenly Jerusalem…. “The better thing for us” that they didn’t have access to.

Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

 

[face2face]

Yes they were looking for a city whose builder and maker was God. That city was heavenly Jerusalem…. “The better thing for us” that they didn’t have access to.

Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Okay, so Abraham has not received the promise - we agree on that!

When?...and with whom?

 

[Johann]

Yes they were looking for a city whose builder and maker was God. That city was heavenly Jerusalem…. “The better thing for us” that they didn’t have access to.

Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Did not receive what was promised, -- The OT figures mentioned in ch. 11 did not experience the new covenant initiated by Christ during their lifetimes (Heb_9:15). Rather, they saw the promise from afar and eagerly awaited its fulfillment (Heb_11:13, Heb_11:16).

Heb_11:40 God's promises unite all believers of all ages, all races, all socio-economic strata, all educational levels (cf. Gal_3:28; Col_3:11). All these OT persons looked forward to God's new day. It has come in Christ at Bethlehem and will be consummated in Christ from heaven bursting open the eastern sky! His resurrection is the hope to which all believers, OT and NT, look forward in faith (cf. 1Jn_3:2).

Received not the promise (ouk ekomisanto tēn epaggelian). First aorist middle of komizō. The Messianic promise they did not live to see (Heb_11:13), though they had individual special promises fulfilled as already shown (Heb_11:33).

Heb 11:33 Who by Emunah conquered mamlechot (kingdoms), worked tzedek (righteousness), obtained havtachot (promises), shut the mouths of arayot (lions),
Heb 11:34 Quenched the power of eish (fire), escaped from the edge of the cherev (sword), out of weakness found strength, became mighty in milchamah (war), put to flight tzive'ot zarim (armies of the aliens).
Heb 11:35 Nashim received back their mesim restored to Chayyim; and others were tortured to death al kiddush ha-Shem, not accepting their release, in order that they might obtain a better Techiyas HaMesim;
Heb 11:36 And others underwent the nisayon of cruel mockings and scourgings, also the sharsherot (chains) and the beis hasohar.
Heb 11:37 They were killed by seqilah (stoning), they were sawn in two, they were murdered by the cherev, they went about in sheepskins, in goatskins, being nitzrach (needy) and destitute, oppressed, under redifot (persecutions),
Heb 11:38 those of whom the Olam Hazeh was not worthy, wandering in deserts and mountains and caves of the earth.
Heb 11:39 And all these, having Hashem's commendation through their Emunah, did not receive the havtachah (promise),
Heb 11:40 Hashem having foreseen something better for us, so that, apart from us, they should not be made shleimut.
OJB

J

 

[IndianaRob]

Okay, so Abraham has not received the promise - we agree on that!

When?...and with whom?

Abraham is in heaven with Jesus so yes he received the promise after Jesus died and paid for his sins and made him perfect.

 

[face2face]

Abraham is in heaven with Jesus so yes he received the promise after Jesus died and paid for his sins and made him perfect.

No Indiana...like David, Abraham is still awaiting the resurrection!

“Brothers and sisters, I can tell you truly that David, our ancestor, died and was buried. His grave is still here with us today.

Why is it Johann can see it but you can't?


Even highlighted it for you

Maybe its a comprehension thing?

Abraham has NOT been made perfect yet!

F2F

 

[tailgator]

Abraham is in heaven with Jesus so yes he received the promise after Jesus died and paid for his sins and made him perfect.

If Abraham did not come down from.heaven then he has not ascended to heaven.

John 3:13
No one has ascended into heaven except the One who descended from heaven—the Son of Man.

 

[Davidpt]

What death was Jesus referring too? When does the judgement occur when people who are deemed not righteous will experience the perils of the second death?

It seems to me that there are some who cannot perceive when the second death becomes a reality for them.

PS: - This thread seems to have gone way off topic.

Lately my thinking is this, right or wrong. IOW, maybe I'm right about some or all of this or maybe I'm not. It's what makes sense to me which might not make sense to someone else, though. It at least explains those in Matthew 16:28 if I'm on the right track here.

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


I do not take 'many' to mean everyone sleeping in the dust of the earth. But do I take it to mean every saved person since the beginning of time through the end of time. Before you think I'm in the process of contradicting myself, there are still these to factor in---and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

These rise as well, except this is not meaning the ones standing before God in Revelation 20 at the great white throne judgment. These are meaning the ones that stand before Jesus at the sheep and goats judgment and that they are standing on His left, thus they are the goats in the NT church. They are the ones Jesus was referring to in Matthew 16:28 where He said they shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

And unless one hasn't noticed, the sheep and goats judgment involves inheriting the kingdom when Christ returns. Except not everyone inherits the kingdom. Some are cast out of it, meaning the goats. At this point in time we are in the beginning of the thousand years, which then means the rest of the dead, the dead that never rose when Daniel 12:2 is meaning, they don't live again until after the thousand years are finished. Therefore, there is a judgment before the thousand years and there is one after the thousand years.

Basically it is a purging out of the rebels and transgressors within the NT church the same way the following passage below is or was. If you can picture in your mind what verse 38 might look like, apply that same picture to that of the sheep and goats judgment, that it is a purging out of the rebels and transgressors in the NT church while Jesus was away during His ascension. And instead of them entering the kingdom when He returns, the goats, just like the ones in verse 38 are not allowed into the land of Israel, these are not allowed into the kingdom of God once the kingdom of God literally appears in the earth. Meaning they taste of death since they never taste of everlasting life instead. IOW, my belief is that 'not once saved always saved' that this is Biblical.

Ezekiel 20:33 As I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:
34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.
35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.
36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord GOD.
37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:
38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

 

[IndianaRob]

No Indiana...like David, Abraham is still awaiting the resurrection!

“Brothers and sisters, I can tell you truly that David, our ancestor, died and was buried. His grave is still here with us today.

Why is it Johann can see it but you can't?

View attachment 50077
Even highlighted it for you

Maybe its a comprehension thing?

Abraham has NOT been made perfect yet!

F2F

I’m sure I’m comprehending the verse. Let me explain.

When a person becomes saved, their sins are forgiven, they are made PERFECT by the righteousness of Christ.

The Old Testament believers in Christ were not made perfect UNTIL Christ died on the cross and paid for their sins and our sins, so that they along with us were made perfect at the same time.

 

[face2face]

I’m sure I’m comprehending the verse. Let me explain.

When a person becomes saved, their sins are forgiven, they are made PERFECT by the righteousness of Christ.

You mean when a person is being saved right?

For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 1 Corinthians 1:18

The Old Testament believers in Christ were not made perfect UNTIL Christ died on the cross and paid for their sins and our sins, so that they along with us were made perfect at the same time.

Perfection is speaking to taking on Divine Nature which happens after the resurrection & judgement

by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire. 2 Peter 1:4

Speaking of 1 Corithians 15 and the "putting on" of immortality.

F2F

 

[IndianaRob]

You mean when a person is being saved right?

For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 1 Corinthians 1:18



Perfection is speaking to taking on Divine Nature which happens after the resurrection & judgement

by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire. 2 Peter 1:4

Speaking of 1 Corithians 15 and the "putting on" of immortality.

F2F

What do you mean “being saved”?

 

[face2face]

What do you mean “being saved”?

Paul is speaking of those who are perishing, to mean those who are slowly aging and will finally end up in the grave. In contrast to this, he is teaching those who (by faith) are being saved which is a process. Peter also uses terms like:

But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen. 2 Peter 3:18

The Apostles use this language to show our lives are about learning and having our faith tested (a probation) which in the end leads one to salvation.

Here it is again:

and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 2 Timothy 3:15

This is very plain teaching.

F2F

 

[IndianaRob]

Paul is speaking of those who are perishing, to mean those who are slowly aging and will finally end up in the grave. In contrast to this, he is teaching those who (by faith) are being saved which is a process. Peter also uses terms like:

But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen. 2 Peter 3:18

The Apostles use this language to show our lives are about learning and having our faith tested (a probation) which in the end leads one to salvation.

Here it is again:

and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 2 Timothy 3:15

This is very plain teaching.

F2F

What is the process of salvation? Seems to me that we admit we’re sinners and ask Jesus to save us from our sins and then we’re saved.

 

[face2face]

@IndianaRob

I'll give you some Scripture to ponder:

To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory, and honour, and immortality, eternal life (Grk., incorruptibility). Rom. 2:7

Can you see the process here?

1:2 My brothers and sisters, consider it nothing but joy when you fall into all sorts of trials, 1:3 because you know that the testing of your faith produces endurance. 1:4 And let endurance have its perfect effect, so that you will be perfect and complete, not deficient in anything. 1:5 But if anyone is deficient in wisdom, he should ask God, who gives to all generously and without reprimand, and it will be given to him. 1:6 But he must ask in faith without doubting, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed around by the wind. 1:7 For that person must not suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord, 1:8 since he is a double-minded individual, unstable in all his ways.
Jas 1:2–8.

No one spells out the process better than James.

I could go one, there are so many verses and sections in the Word of God which teach faith leading to salvation is a process.

F2F

 

[face2face]

2 Peter 1:5-7 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; and to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; and to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

Then Peter states this:

1:8 For if these things are really yours and are continually increasing, they will keep you from becoming ineffective and unproductive in your pursuit of knowing our Lord Jesus Christ more intimately.2 Pe 1:8.

Enjoy

F2F

 

[IndianaRob]

@IndianaRob

I'll give you some Scripture to ponder:

To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory, and honour, and immortality, eternal life (Grk., incorruptibility). Rom. 2:7

Can you see the process here?

1:2 My brothers and sisters, consider it nothing but joy when you fall into all sorts of trials, 1:3 because you know that the testing of your faith produces endurance. 1:4 And let endurance have its perfect effect, so that you will be perfect and complete, not deficient in anything. 1:5 But if anyone is deficient in wisdom, he should ask God, who gives to all generously and without reprimand, and it will be given to him. 1:6 But he must ask in faith without doubting, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed around by the wind. 1:7 For that person must not suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord, 1:8 since he is a double-minded individual, unstable in all his ways.
Jas 1:2–8.

No one spells out the process better than James.

I could go one, there are so many verses and sections in the Word of God which teach faith leading to salvation is a process.

F2F

I see a process of perfecting our faith but I don’t see working for our salvation.

 

[face2face]

I see a process of perfecting our faith but I don’t see working for our salvation.

This is one and the same thing. Only by faith can one be saved.

 

[face2face]

@IndianaRob

This is why the Revelation speaks of the books of the lives which is opened to reveal the life lived. This is really no different to Hebrews 11. In reality the Bible is snippets of this much larger selection of books (figuratively speaking).

Rev 20:11 if you want to have a look

F2F

 

[Johann]

I see a process of perfecting our faith but I don’t see working for our salvation.

Php 2:12 So, my dearly loved friends, as you have always been obedient, so now with reverence and awe keep on working clear down to the finishing point of your salvation not only as though I were with you but much more because I am away;
Php 2:13 for it is God Himself who is at work in you to help you desire it as well as do it.
Williams

This aspect of salvation as "wholeness" can also be seen in Act_4:10; Act_14:9; Act_27:34. The initiating grace of God and the required faith response of a repentant human are clearly seen in Eph_2:8-9. Obviously, believers do not work for their salvation, but after they are saved, they cooperate with the Spirit to live in Christlike maturity (cf. Php_2:14-17; Eph_2:10; Eph_5:18).

work out -- κατεργάζεσθε (καταχθονίων) (2nd person, plural, present middle indicative, (deponent) tense = "continue to" ) = to work to full completion, used here in the sense of “to carry out to completion.” Working at and finally accomplishing. . Used of working out a mine to get all the valuable ore out. Eph_6:13 (same word) "having worked out"
This important command was first addressed to Christians, but there is no reason why the same command should not be regarded as addressed to all - for it is equally applicable to all. (Act_2:40)

Salvation is all of God and totally free but it requires an active, costly, repentant, continuing faith response (cf. Mat_13:44-46).

Sanctification is progressive and ongoing brother.
J.

 

[face2face]

Php 2:12 So, my dearly loved friends, as you have always been obedient, so now with reverence and awe keep on working clear down to the finishing point of your salvation not only as though I were with you but much more because I am away;
Php 2:13 for it is God Himself who is at work in you to help you desire it as well as do it.
Williams

This aspect of salvation as "wholeness" can also be seen in Act_4:10; Act_14:9; Act_27:34. The initiating grace of God and the required faith response of a repentant human are clearly seen in Eph_2:8-9. Obviously, believers do not work for their salvation, but after they are saved, they cooperate with the Spirit to live in Christlike maturity (cf. Php_2:14-17; Eph_2:10; Eph_5:18).

Salvation is all of God and totally free but it requires an active, costly, repentant, continuing faith response (cf. Mat_13:44-46).

Like this J.
We need to stop agreeing like this ;)
F2F

 

[Johann]

Like this J.
We need to stop agreeing like this ;)
F2F

Till we have our first moment of "intense fellowship?" -that is disagreement?
Lol!

I need strong coffee, black.
J.