Some key points pertaining to the parable per Luke 19:11-27.

[ewq1938]

When was the next time Jesus drank from the fruit of the vine?

Jhn 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

He was talking about wine, not vinegar despite being related liquids. I have vinegar in my kitchen. It isn't wine. He was not in the kingdom drinking wine yet. It was a reference to a far distant future.

Mat 26:27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Mat 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

 

[tailgator]

Ok, then the little season that the fifth seal martyrs have to wait for is definitely not a 2,000 year period, right?

If so then the obvious problem is why would anyone now, be asking the Revelation 6:10 question of “how long”. Both you and I know the answer is to rest a little season, no need to ask the question in the first place.

The question of “how long” had to have been asked prior to the book of Revelation being published. If someone asks the question now it would show a lack of faith in believing what the Bible already says. Kinda like if someone were to die and ask Jesus where He was born, we all know it was Bethlehem.

No,I don't believe they asked before the book was written.More like before the ,,6th seal is opened which is the abomination that causes desolation and the great tribulation .Jesus said the stars of heaven falling to the earth is a sign of his coming.
Their fellow servants are killed in the final 42 months before Christs coming .

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

 

[ewq1938]

Here's something to ponder if some of these Amils are correct that the entire planet is literally engulfed in flames once Christ returns.

They are wrong about the timing of the burning away of the old heaven and Earth. There are no animal sacrifices in Christiamnity after the Lamb of God's sacrifice anyways. That is not part of Premill either, though many Premill's believe in it. It is a separate end times doctrine/belief from when Christ returns in regard to the Mill.

 

[grafted branch]

No,I don't believe they asked before the book was written.More like before the ,,6th seal is opened which is the abomination that causes desolation and the great tribulation .Jesus said the stars of heaven falling to the earth is a sign of his coming.
Their fellow servants are killed in the final 42 months before Christs coming .

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

So why do they ask a question that they already know the answer to at the fifth seal? Why would that make sense?

 

[Marty fox]

Then they must have laid back down to rest a while longer .The nation of Israel is born in one day.


Ezekiel 37
11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.

12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

13 And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord.

Matthew 27:
50 And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.

51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and[e] went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

54 When the centurion and those with him who were guarding Jesus saw the earthquake and all that had happened, they were terrified, and exclaimed, “Surely he was the Son of God!”

 

[Marty fox]

Isaiah 66:8
Who has ever heard of such things? Who has ever seen things like this? Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment? Yet no sooner is Zion in labor than she gives birth to her children.


Zion is not founded till after Babylon is destroyed.

Mystery Babylon the great is Jerusalem even Jesus taught us that
Revelation 18

The Finality of Babylon’s Doom​

21 Then a mighty angel picked up a boulder the size of a large millstone and threw it into the sea, and said:

“With such violence
the great city of Babylon will be thrown down,
never to be found again.
22 The music of harpists and musicians, pipers and trumpeters,
will never be heard in you again.
No worker of any trade
will ever be found in you again.
The sound of a millstone
will never be heard in you again.
23 The light of a lamp
will never shine in you again.
The voice of bridegroom and bride
will never be heard in you again.
Your merchants were the world’s important people.
By your magic spell all the nations were led astray.
24 In her was found the blood of prophets and of God’s holy people,
of all who have been slaughtered on the earth.”

Jesus tied verse 24 above directly to verse 35 below

Matthew 23
33 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abelto the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’[c]”

 

[Davidpt]

So why do they ask a question that they already know the answer to at the fifth seal? Why would that make sense?

Has it ever crossed your mind that maybe no one is actually literally asking questions like that? IOW, maybe it's to be understood like the following, for example.

Genesis 4:8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.
9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.


Verse 10 being the point I'm trying to raise, of course. Whether or not what is recorded in the 5th seal should be understood in the same manner, I'm not entirely certain. But I do see it being a possibility, because for some reason Genesis 4:10 always comes to mind when I'm considering what they are saying during the 5th seal. Why that verse in Genesis 4 of all verses? Why is that coming to mind? I didn't force it to. It just popped into my head out of nowhere the first time it came to mind.

 

[CadyandZoe]

We can approach it by explaining the nature of the kingdom of God as both a present reality and a future fulfillment.

The Kingdom is Already Present:
Jesus proclaimed the kingdom of God during His earthly ministry, indicating that it was already present in a certain sense. For example:

Luke 17:20-21 (NKJV):
"Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, 'The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, "See here!" or "See there!" For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.'"
This shows that the kingdom was already present spiritually in Jesus’ ministry and in the hearts of believers.

Jesus is King Now, But the Fullness is Yet to Come:
While Jesus reigns as King, the full realization of His kingdom will come in the future. Jesus' ascension and receiving of the kingdom refer to His ultimate authority being recognized universally. In Matthew 28:18 (NKJV), Jesus says, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth,” affirming His current kingship.

Yet, we also see in Hebrews 2:8 (NKJV):
"You have put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him."
This reveals the tension between Christ's current reign and the future manifestation of His rule.

Jesus' Parable of the Minas (Luke 19:12-15):
In this parable, Jesus speaks of a nobleman (representing Himself) who goes away to receive a kingdom and then return. The parable illustrates that while Jesus was going away (His ascension), He would return (His second coming) to fully establish His kingdom. The kingdom already exists, but Jesus’ departure signifies a period of waiting until His return, when the full visible reign will be established.

The Kingdom is Now and Not Yet:
Theologically, the kingdom of God is often described as "already but not yet." It is already present because Christ’s rule is evident in the hearts of believers and in the work of the church. But it is not yet fully realized until His second coming, when His kingdom will be fully established on earth. This is reflected in passages like:

Revelation 11:15 (NKJV):
"The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"

You agree?
J.

If the kingdom exists now, why does the nobleman wait until his return to reward his slaves?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Yes they were misunderstood and found something better

I disagree. Jesus never repudiated the hope of Israel. Rather, he corrected the view of his disciples as to when it would be realized.

 

[Johann]

If the kingdom exists now, why does the nobleman wait until his return to reward his slaves?

I disagree. Jesus never repudiated the hope of Israel. Rather, he corrected the view of his disciples as to when it would be realized.

This your site?

JackCrabtree

 

[Davidpt]

If the kingdom exists now, why does the nobleman wait until his return to reward his slaves?

Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

What if we factor this in? This has Christ being seen coming in His kingdom, right? But we can't look at that verse in isolation. We at least need to look at it like this below.


Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Obviously, verse 27 gives us the timing of when verse 28 is meaning. And let's not forget that there is a resurrection event when Christ returns. Which then means some of them standing there at the time are raised back to life and then are at the sheep and goats judgment. But instead of entering and inheriting the kingdom, they are cast out of it instead.


Make no mistake about it, this in verse 27---and then he shall reward every man according to his works--is meaning this in Revelation 22:12---And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Equally, make no mistake about it, this in verse 27--- For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels--is meaning this in Matthew 25:31---When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory.


It can't get any clearer than this, Matthew 16:27 gives us the timing of when verse 28 is meaning, in regards to seeing the Son of man coming in His kingdom. How could I possibly be wrong here if these other Scriptures I submitted, Revelation 22:12 and Matthew 25:31, prove that I am right?

 

[tailgator]

So why do they ask a question that they already know the answer to at the fifth seal? Why would that make sense?

How could someone open a seal.of a book that has not been written?

If I had a book ,and I was opening the fifth seal.of that book.It was obviously written before I opened it.

Scripture says after the fifth seal is opened ,they are given white robes and told they must rest a little season till their fellow servants are killed.

Their fellow servants are killed before the 6th seal is opened when Christ comes and seals them all in their foreheads. This takes place during the time of Gods wrath in revelation 6.

Ezekiel ,9
4 And the Lord said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

5 And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:

6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.

 

[tailgator]

Mystery Babylon the great is Jerusalem even Jesus taught us that
Revelation 18

The Finality of Babylon’s Doom​

21 Then a mighty angel picked up a boulder the size of a large millstone and threw it into the sea, and said:

“With such violence
the great city of Babylon will be thrown down,
never to be found again.
22 The music of harpists and musicians, pipers and trumpeters,
will never be heard in you again.
No worker of any trade
will ever be found in you again.
The sound of a millstone
will never be heard in you again.
23 The light of a lamp
will never shine in you again.
The voice of bridegroom and bride
will never be heard in you again.
Your merchants were the world’s important people.
By your magic spell all the nations were led astray.
24 In her was found the blood of prophets and of God’s holy people,
of all who have been slaughtered on the earth.”

Jesus tied verse 24 above directly to verse 35 below

Matthew 23
33 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abelto the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’[c]”

As I said.Zion is founded after Babylon is destroyed.

Isaiah 14
29 Rejoice not thou, whole Palestina, because the rod of him that smote thee is broken: for out of the serpent's root shall come forth a cockatrice, and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent.

30 And the firstborn of the poor shall feed, and the needy shall lie down in safety: and I will kill thy root with famine, and he shall slay thy remnant.

31 Howl, O gate; cry, O city; thou, whole Palestina, art dissolved: for there shall come from the north a smoke, and none shall be alone in his appointed times.

32 What shall one then answer the messengers of the nation? That the Lord hath founded Zion, and the poor of his people shall trust in it.





As of now,the king of Babylon is smiting the Philistines with his rod.

 

[CadyandZoe]

This your site?

JackCrabtree

No. Jack is my Bible teacher, and I have known him for just shy of 40 years. (Memory is shot :) ) My high school friends and I drove up to Palo Alto to attend "Body Life" at Peninsula Bible Church. Jack came to Oregon to form McKenzie Study Center and to start Gutenberg College, and now he teaches at Reformation Fellowship. Jack's teaching is on his site called "Sound Interpretation Project."

 

[tailgator]

Mystery Babylon the great is Jerusalem even Jesus taught us that
Revelation 18

The Finality of Babylon’s Doom​

21 Then a mighty angel picked up a boulder the size of a large millstone and threw it into the sea, and said:

“With such violence
the great city of Babylon will be thrown down,
never to be found again.
22 The music of harpists and musicians, pipers and trumpeters,
will never be heard in you again.
No worker of any trade
will ever be found in you again.
The sound of a millstone
will never be heard in you again.
23 The light of a lamp
will never shine in you again.
The voice of bridegroom and bride
will never be heard in you again.
Your merchants were the world’s important people.
By your magic spell all the nations were led astray.
24 In her was found the blood of prophets and of God’s holy people,
of all who have been slaughtered on the earth.”

Jesus tied verse 24 above directly to verse 35 below

Matthew 23
33 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abelto the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’[c]”

Again,Zion isn't founded till the beast of Babylon is destroyed

Daniel ,7
24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

What if we factor this in? This has Christ being seen coming in His kingdom, right? But we can't look at that verse in isolation. We at least need to look at it like this below.


Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Obviously, verse 27 gives us the timing of when verse 28 is meaning. And let's not forget that there is a resurrection event when Christ returns. Which then means some of them standing there at the time are raised back to life and then are at the sheep and goats judgment. But instead of entering and inheriting the kingdom, they are cast out of it instead.


Make no mistake about it, this in verse 27---and then he shall reward every man according to his works--is meaning this in Revelation 22:12---And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Equally, make no mistake about it, this in verse 27--- For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels--is meaning this in Matthew 25:31---When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory.


It can't get any clearer than this, Matthew 16:27 gives us the timing of when verse 28 is meaning, in regards to seeing the Son of man coming in His kingdom. How could I possibly be wrong here if these other Scriptures I submitted, Revelation 22:12 and Matthew 25:31, prove that I am right?

One other thing, if his kingdom is already in existence, why did Jesus teach his disciples to pray, "Thy kingdom come . . ."?

 

[tailgator]

Has it ever crossed your mind that maybe no one is actually literally asking questions like that? IOW, maybe it's to be understood like the following, for example.

Genesis 4:8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.
9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.


Verse 10 being the point I'm trying to raise, of course. Whether or not what is recorded in the 5th seal should be understood in the same manner, I'm not entirely certain. But I do see it being a possibility, because for some reason Genesis 4:10 always comes to mind when I'm considering what they are saying during the 5th seal. Why that verse in Genesis 4 of all verses? Why is that coming to mind? I didn't force it to. It just popped into my head out of nowhere the first time it came to mind.

Just popped in your mind?
Heehee

I've had that same thing happen to.me a time or two.

John 14:26
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

 

[Jay Ross]

Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

What death was Jesus referring too? When does the judgement occur when people who are deemed not righteous will experience the perils of the second death?

It seems to me that there are some who cannot perceive when the second death becomes a reality for them.

PS: - This thread seems to have gone way off topic.

 

[face2face]

Jer 3:14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:

“I will take you ONE of you from a city” and “TWO of a family” AND “I will bring you to ZION”.

A few Jews were brought into Zion (heavenly Jerusalem) but the majority didn’t make it.

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

This is the future work of Elijah to "restore all things" which Paul calls the "commonwealth of Israel".

You are right about the refining of Israel as they are brought home, but how can you prove this is yet future?

F2F

 

[IndianaRob]

This is the future work of Elijah to "restore all things" which Paul calls the "commonwealth of Israel".

You are right about the refining of Israel as they are brought home, but how can you prove this is yet future?

F2F

I don’t know what you mean, I don’t think anything is future.