The "LOL" preface is just a technique to marginalize the other person's comments, without saying something substantive. Please stop.
Express your disagreement to what the other person commented in a less aggressive way.
It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial
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Express your disagreement to what the other person commented in a less aggressive way.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Here is the complete passage of Revelation 12:10-12
Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”
@Douggg @MA2444 @The Light
Can you please post the verse in Revelation 12:10-12 whereby it states those is Heaven were pre-trib raptured.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Since when is JESUS words "acting like the Dems/Harris"???
Are we not commanded by our LORD Jesus Christ this: Matthew 4:4
‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’ ”
What is so "deplorable" of these simple questions of Truth???
3 simple questions by the Word of the LORD spoken in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
#1 - What location is JESUS leaving when He comes for the rapture?
#2- Who is HE bringing with Himself?
a.) "the dead in Christ" or
b.) previously raptured saints
#3 - Which occurs FIRST?
a.) the Resurrection or
b.) the Rapture
The Light
Well-Known Member
Thanks. Just a couple of easy questions.
1) So where in history was hail and fire mingled blood cast to the earth when a third part of trees were burnt up and ALL THE GREEN GRASS WAS BURNT UP?
2) Where in history after Jesus came was a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
3) Where in history was the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.
4) Where in history did a great star fall upon the third part of rivers and the fountains of waters. Should be easy to find as it will be called WORMWOOD.
5) Where in history did the locusts that had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions happen when they stung those without the seal of God for 5 months. They had the king from the bottomless pit, Apollyon over them.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
GOOD questions which have been answered from scripture itself.
The questions in Post 1083 are much easier = grade school level questions.
If pre-trib is truth, then you will find it in the scriptural answers to the three questions.
The Light
Well-Known Member
Soooooooooooooooooo. Ya can't answer? The reason you can't answer is because the events are the wrath of God and have not happened yet.
Or do you think that the wrath of God and Day of the Lord is silence in heaven. God is mad and won't talk to anybody?
Lets just pretend those trumpets aren't there.
Revelation 12:12 says that them in heaven, rejoice.
It does elaborate whether or not them in heaven includes the raptured/resurrected saints in that verse.
.....But in Revelation it does indicate time has come for judgment of the (resurrected) dead for the purpose of giving rewards to them, and the prophets, and to the saints (raptured).
In Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
MA2444
Well-Known Member
There it is again. You are trying to be in control of the narrative by repeating your transcription/cliches, whatever. Did you get that from the book 50 ways to discredit Pre trib view?
You cant totally control the negative on an internet forum. I'm not a guest on your podcast so I will say what I will say. I say, in the iinterest of perhaps calming you posttribbers down that perhaps we should approach it from a different angle? Is that ok, or not ok. Oh yeah I remember. You want to be in control of where the conversation goes.
May I suggest something Brother?
I wrote a lot last night about the Spirit of the Lord and how He will lead us into all truth.
You said not one single word about the Spirit of the Lord. Or your experiences with the Spirit of the Lord or anything like that. I for one, am curious Brother.
Are we to be led of the Spirit? Are you led of the Spirit? Tell me about it, lest I think you might be devoid of the Spirit and start praying for you again! Oh Brother, we cant leave the Lord out of this conversation! It is all about the Lord, so how could we leave Him out of it?
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MA2444
Well-Known Member
Oh, grow a pair. It was an analogy, and funny I might add!
I hope I offended the Republican in you!, Lol. Maybe I did! That's a good sign Brother, Praise the Lord!
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
100% AGREE with your post here on Rev 11:18
Revelation chapter 11 is SELF-CONTAINED
Chapter 11 concludes with the 7th Trumpet which is the LAST Trump = there are no more Trumpets AFTER the 7th.
Whereas chapter 12 continues into chapter 13
Chapter 12 is another repeating prophecy that began in Genesis, thru the OT prophets, the LORD, the apostles and finally Revelation.
In Revelation chapter 12, can you please post the verse(s) that you believe is 'pre-trib' rapture.
Thank you @Douggg
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
i told you that we love the Lord Jesus Christ = together we are in HIM
i also like quit-whit as long as it can be reciprocal without harm/insult to us or the audience
Between you and me, with respect, humor is good!
Ronald D Milam
Well-Known Member
That day (God's Wrath) shall not come until the DEPARTURE [of the Church] and it also can not come until the Man of Sin is REVEALED, meaning both happen before the Wrath of God falls. Which is why Paul is rebuking them for fearing.
2 Thess. 2:1 Now we beseech(Ask URGENTLY) you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
I love being told by God, Ron you are wrong, because I know I am about to get a TRUTH NUGGET, those who are never able to be wrong will never hear God's small still voice instructing them. This MENS:
Paul asks these Thessalonians in a URGENT TONE, not to FEAR that they are in the DOTL, but why? Well he CLEARLY SAYS WHY in vs. 1, by the COMING of the Lord Jesus Christ, AND by our Gathering (RAPTURE) unto him, that you NOT FEAR that the DOTL us at hand or upon you now !! Now he says why below, but later on he says did I not tell you this when I was with you before, which w why its not a DETAILED, if you and I talked in depth about something, then I wrote you a letter, I am not going to write a drawn out letter about something I just went over with you, I am just going to say REMEMBER what I told you? That is why verse 3 just says DEPARTURE, they know he's talking about the RAPTURE of the Church, that's why they have no reason to fear !! Your preconceived bias is why you can not see the facts here.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away(DEPARTURE) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Do you understand what is being said here? Not if you buy into the KJV translation which is trying to say an Apostacy has to happen first, when NOWHERE in this whole chapter is FAITH even discussed, but a Rapture of the Church is discussed in vs. 1 (Gathering unto Christ) so Paul says do not let any man deceive you into thinking you are now in the Wrath of God (DOTL) for that day (DOTL) can not come until these TWO THINGS happen first, the DEPARTURE [of the Church] AND the Man of Sin (A.C.) is Revealed or is on the scene. So, why di you miss it? Because The Rapture and the Man of Sin both happen at the same time, when the A.C./Beast makes an Agreement with Israel (Israel joins the E.U. as a member state) that sets off the 70th week, thus the pre 70th week rapture of the Church happens AND the Man of Sin (A.C.) is Revealed, and the DOTL is 1260 days away. So, BOTH those things have to come to pass before the Wrath of God comes so quit fearing you are in the DOTL that is not possible. Why because the Church will not be in the Rapture we will be Gathered unto Christ Jesus. Thats why we a seen in Rev. 4:4 and in Rev. 5:9-10 before the Seals ae even broken, and in Rev. 19 Marrying the Lamb in heaven.
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth(BINDS) will let(BIND), until he(Holy Spirit working through the Church) be taken out of the way.
Remember I already told you that we would be GATHERED unto the Lord (Depart)before God's Wrath falls now you now what keeps the Man of Sin/Beast/A.C. from coming forth until its his time to come forth. He who binds the A.C. from coming forth will keep binding him until the Church DEPARTS.
So, if the Church was going to go through the Tribulation, and we do not know when its coming, Paul would have been lying to them by saying to fear not, wouldn't he? The truth is you guys just d not put the grunt work in, you hear some man say something and buy it hook, line and sinker.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
LOL x1000000000000000000000 = Love it
Now my Brother, it is 'Back to the Future'
3 simple questions:
#1 - What location is JESUS leaving when He comes for the rapture?
#2- Who is HE bringing with Himself?
a.) "the dead in Christ" or
b.) previously raptured saints
#3 - Which occurs FIRST?
a.) the Resurrection or
b.) the Rapture
@Douggg, can you also respond to these 3 questions - thank you
MA2444
Well-Known Member
I've never been more sober in my life! What's your excuse? Lol. Whatsamatter? You one of those feminist type christians and get offended easily?
Why dont you ever say anything meaningful? To the topic and not about insulting each other and calling each other names?
Huh-Uhh!
Oh yeah)
You're a LIar!
Your a Punk!
Come on Brother, is that all you got? At first I thought you was a grown man. Not sure now.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
i did not read ALL the posts last night and did not recognize this.
But now you have entered into SACRED Ground my Brother, which is my favorite Place when i study Scripture.
Be ever so CAREFUL when you speak of the Holy Spirit for JESUS says "all manner of sin will be forgiven man except the blaspheming of the Holy Spirit."
the LORD Jesus Christ reiterated this as well in Revelation 22:18-19
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
@MA2444 @Douggg @Ronald D Milam
#1 - to be led of the Spirit is to be led into TRUTH for the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of TRUTH = John 14:15-18
#2 - If you refuse to answer the 3 simple questions , you DEFAULT and you declare that either you are not able to answer in TRUTH or you do not want to be led by the Holy Spirit into ALL TRUTH
#3 - The Holy Spirit will ONLY agree to "It is written" = John 17:14-19
Now my Brother, BACK to the FUTURE with the HOLY SPIRIT of TRUTH
3 simple questions:
#1 - What location is JESUS leaving when He comes for the rapture?
#2- Who is HE bringing with Himself?
a.) "the dead in Christ" or
b.) previously raptured saints
#3 - Which occurs FIRST?
a.) the Resurrection or
b.) the Rapture
What I tend to think about the trumpets is that the 2Ws are maybe behind why those things are happening at the time. Note what the following says..
Revelation 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
Verse 6 says all plagues. No one can argue after looking at what the first trumpet is involving, for example, that it's isn't involving plagues. This tends to tell us that when the first trumpet sounds, the 2Ws are already giving their testimonies. IOW, their 1260 days are already in progress and maybe even began before the time of the first trumpet.
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That is a modern Pretrib invention. Like all their speculations, it is found in Jesuit deceit, invented in the early 1800s.
The Light
Well-Known Member
Heaven.
That depends on which coming you are talking about.
At the barley harvest He will come for the dead in Christ.
At the wheat harvest He will bring the dead in Christ with Him.
Ath the fruit harvest HE will bring both the dead in Christ and the alive that had remained with Him.
A resurrection occurs first, the dead in Christ. Then they are raptured.
Yet there is still the alive that remain to be raptured at the wheat harvest.
Then at the fruit harvest the dead and alive are changed in the twinkling of an eye.
Like you said, three simple questions. Here's a few easy ones for you.
1) So where in history was hail and fire mingled blood cast to the earth when a third part of trees were burnt up and ALL THE GREEN GRASS WAS BURNT UP?
2) Where in history after Jesus came was a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
3) Where in history was the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.
4) Where in history did a great star fall upon the third part of rivers and the fountains of waters. Should be easy to find as it will be called WORMWOOD.
5) Where in history did the locusts that had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions happen when they stung those without the seal of God for 5 months. They had the king from the bottomless pit, Apollyon over them.
What are you hoping to prove by these 3 questions? Don't Pretribbers think after everyone having met Jesus in the air, Jesus then does a u-turn and returns back to heaven? No matter which scenario you choose, whether Pretrib or Post trib, it involves a u-turn. If those who are alive and caught up into the air, then return to the earth, that is a u-turn in their case. But at least that u'turn makes sense the fact there is still the beast and it's armies below to confront if assuming Post trib.
While OTOH, if the dead in Christ are already in heaven to begin with, then Jesus brings them with Him, then returns back to heaven moments later, why didn't He just leave them in heavento begin with if He takes them back their moments later? It makes no sense, especially if they stay there until great trib is past on the earth below. And none of them would even be in immortal bodies yet, including these Pretribbers. As if it's possible to dwell in heaven in the same unglorified body you left the earth in.
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