It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial

[WPM]

Thanks. Just a couple of easy questions.

1) So where in history was hail and fire mingled blood cast to the earth when a third part of trees were burnt up and ALL THE GREEN GRASS WAS BURNT UP?

2) Where in history after Jesus came was a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

3) Where in history was the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

4) Where in history did a great star fall upon the third part of rivers and the fountains of waters. Should be easy to find as it will be called WORMWOOD.

5) Where in history did the locusts that had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions happen when they stung those without the seal of God for 5 months. They had the king from the bottomless pit, Apollyon over them.

These are general symbolic terms for the judgment of God upon fallen nature and mankind. Revelation 1:1 says, “The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified (or semaino) it by his angel unto his servant John.”

The order: God - Christ - Angel – (signified or symbolized) John

This Greek word semaino is found seven times in the New Testament and is interpreted as follows in the King James Version:

• Signs (John 4:48)
• Signify (Acts 25:27)
• Signifying (John 12:33, 18:32, 21:19)
• Signified (Acts 11:28; Revelation 1:1)

 

[The Light]

What I tend to think about the trumpets is that the 2Ws are maybe behind why those things are happening at the time. Note what the following says..

Revelation 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.


Verse 6 says all plagues. No one can argue after looking at what the first trumpet is involving, for example, that it's isn't involving plagues. This tends to tell us that when the first trumpet sounds, the 2Ws are already giving their testimonies. IOW, their 1260 days are already in progress and maybe even began before the time of the first trumpet.

The two witnesses are giving their testimonies for 30 months. Then the wrath of God begins after the 7th seal is opened. This is when the trumpets happen, in the Day of the Lord, the one year,12 month, day of His wrath. Also don't forget Armageddon happens during this one year.

 

[The Light]

These are general symbolic terms for the judgment of God upon fallen nature and mankind. Revelation 1:1 says, “The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified (or semaino) it by his angel unto his servant John.”

The order: God - Christ - Angel – (signified or symbolized) John

This Greek word semaino is found seven times in the New Testament and is interpreted as follows in the King James Version:

• Signs (John 4:48)
• Signify (Acts 25:27)
• Signifying (John 12:33, 18:32, 21:19)
• Signified (Acts 11:28; Revelation 1:1)

So are you saying God wrath is symbolic? He doesn't take wrath of the dwellers of the earth.

I'm pretty sure someone squatted in your chili.

 

[David in NJ]

That is a modern Pretrib invention. Like all their speculations, it is found in Jesuit deceit, invented in the early 1800s.

@Ronald D Milam in your post 1093 is in violation of God's Law, which is lawlessness.

God's Law = Proverbs 30:5-6

Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.

#1 - Ron added to God's words in 2 Thessalonians chapter 2 by saying the "falling away" is the departure/rapture of the church.
God has not, and never will, give you or anyone authorization to change scripture and the Holy Spirit Truth who Inspired it.

​

Audio Crossref Comment Greek Verse (Click for Chapter) New International Version Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. New Living Translation Don’t be fooled by what they say. For that day will not come until there is a great rebellion against God and the man of lawlessness is revealed—the one who brings destruction. English Standard Version Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, Berean Standard Bible Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed. Berean Literal Bible No one should deceive you in any way, because it is not until the apostasy shall have come first, and the man of lawlessness shall have been revealed--the son of destruction, King James Bible Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; New King James Version Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, New American Standard Bible No one is to deceive you in any way! For it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, NASB 1995 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, NASB 1977 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, Legacy Standard Bible Let no one in any way deceive you, for it has not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, Amplified Bible Let no one in any way deceive or entrap you, for that day will not come unless the apostasy comes first [that is, the great rebellion, the abandonment of the faith by professed Christians], and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction [the Antichrist, the one who is destined to be destroyed], Christian Standard Bible Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. Holman Christian Standard Bible Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction. American Standard Version let no man beguile you in any wise: for it will not be, except the falling away come first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, Aramaic Bible in Plain English Let no man deceive you by any means, to the effect that surely no revolt will first come and The Man of Sin, The Son of Destruction, be revealed, Contemporary English Version But don't be fooled! People will rebel against God. Then before the Lord returns, the wicked one who is doomed to be destroyed will appear.

 

[WPM]

So are you saying God wrath is symbolic? He doesn't take wrath of the dwellers of the earth.

I'm pretty sure someone squatted in your chili.

The wrath of God is constantly on the wicked. The final wrath will eternally eliminate the wicked.

 

[WPM]

@Ronald D Milam in your post 1093 is in violation of God's Law, which is lawlessness.

God's Law = Proverbs 30:5-6

Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.

#1 - Ron added to God's words in 2 Thessalonians chapter 2 by saying the "falling away" is the departure/rapture of the church.
God has not, and never will, give you or anyone authorization to change scripture and the Holy Spirit Truth who Inspired it.

​

Audio Crossref Comment Greek Verse (Click for Chapter) New International Version Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. New Living Translation Don’t be fooled by what they say. For that day will not come until there is a great rebellion against God and the man of lawlessness is revealed—the one who brings destruction. English Standard Version Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, Berean Standard Bible Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed. Berean Literal Bible No one should deceive you in any way, because it is not until the apostasy shall have come first, and the man of lawlessness shall have been revealed--the son of destruction, King James Bible Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; New King James Version Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, New American Standard Bible No one is to deceive you in any way! For it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, NASB 1995 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, NASB 1977 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, Legacy Standard Bible Let no one in any way deceive you, for it has not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, Amplified Bible Let no one in any way deceive or entrap you, for that day will not come unless the apostasy comes first [that is, the great rebellion, the abandonment of the faith by professed Christians], and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction [the Antichrist, the one who is destined to be destroyed], Christian Standard Bible Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. Holman Christian Standard Bible Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction. American Standard Version let no man beguile you in any wise: for it will not be, except the falling away come first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, Aramaic Bible in Plain English Let no man deceive you by any means, to the effect that surely no revolt will first come and The Man of Sin, The Son of Destruction, be revealed, Contemporary English Version But don't be fooled! People will rebel against God. Then before the Lord returns, the wicked one who is doomed to be destroyed will appear.

Pretribbers have their own Bible. They rewrite what doesn't suit them, which is much.

 

[David in NJ]

Pretribbers have their own Bible. They rewrite what doesn't suit them, which is much.

the lie of pre-trib rapture is 'lawlessness'.

The Law of God/Christ/Holy Spirit is "thou shall NOT lie"

This is a Eternal Law that is binding upon all mankind, Jew & Gentile.

my Brother @The Light, please take note so that you are not tempted to sin by adding/changing God's words.

 

[David in NJ]

Soooooooooooooooooo. Ya can't answer? The reason you can't answer is because the events are the wrath of God and have not happened yet.

Or do you think that the wrath of God and Day of the Lord is silence in heaven. God is mad and won't talk to anybody?

Lets just pretend those trumpets aren't there.

i will answer but first things FIRST.

1 Thessalonians was written BEFORE Revelation, so the 3 questions come FIRST

You answered CORRECTLY on #1 and #3
BUT then you forfeited the correct answer of #3 by adding to God's words what HE never said in 1 Thessalonians(nor the Gospel).

Please review questions #2 and #3 answer them as "It is written" in the Letter of 1 Thessalonians = you can and should use ch3 for clarity of ch4.

 

[David in NJ]

@The Light
post 1,108 has been edited for you

 

[rwb]

What are you hoping to prove by these 3 questions? Don't Pretribbers think after everyone having met Jesus in the air, Jesus then does a u-turn and returns back to heaven? No matter which scenario you choose, whether Pretrib or Post trib, it involves a u-turn. If those who are alive and caught up into the air, then return to the earth, that is a u-turn in their case. But at least that u'turn makes sense the fact there is still the beast and it's armies below to confront if assuming Post trib.

While OTOH, if the dead in Christ are already in heaven to begin with, then Jesus brings them with Him, then returns back to heaven moments later, why didn't He just leave them in heavento begin with if He takes them back their moments later? It makes no sense, especially if they stay there until great trib is past on the earth below. And none of them would even be in immortal bodies yet, including these Pretribbers. As if it's possible to dwell in heaven in the same unglorified body you left the earth in.

Why would we who are post trib Amil believe our everlasting home is heaven? We are caught up to meet the Lord in the after great tribulation, and before the wrath of God falls down from heaven in ALL-CONSUMING fire. Then we who caught up to meet the Lord in the air and not in heaven, shall come down from the air, not heaven with Christ to the earth made new again where we will be with Him forever.

Not a U-turn but caught up to safety, or left behind to be caught on fire that shall destroy every living thing on this earth.

 

[The Light]

i will answer but first things FIRST.

1 Thessalonians was written BEFORE Revelation, so the 3 questions come FIRST

You answered CORRECTLY on #1 and #3
BUT then you forfeited the correct answer of #3 by adding to God's words what HE never said in 1 Thessalonians(nor the Gospel).

Please review questions #2 and #3 answer them as "It is written" in the Letter of 1 Thessalonians = you can and should use ch3 for clarity of ch4.

I answered according to knowledge not according to what you think.

You asked a question, I answered.

Your turn.

 

[Davidpt]

Then we who caught up to meet the Lord in the air and not in heaven, shall come down from the air, not heaven with Christ to the earth made new again where we will be with Him forever.

Except that's not the way it's going to happen, though. You are not factoring everything in that needs to be factored in.

1 Corinthians 15:28 is key. Christ obviously sets foot back on this earth before 1 Corinthians 15:28 is even fulfilled and Luke 19:27, for one, proves it. That verse is still involving death and is meaning after Christ has returned. To return to somewhere means come back to some place someone was already at earlier. In that parable Christ is not returning to the moon nor mars, He's returning to the earth. We know the timing is before 1 Corinthians 15:28 is fulfilled the fact Luke 19:27 still involves death, something that will be impossible once 1 Corinthians 15:28 is fulfilled. Meaning death will be impossible. It will no longer exist at that point. But I already have a thread going right now pertaining to Luke 19 and this parable in question.

 

[David in NJ]

I answered according to knowledge not according to what you think.

You asked a question, I answered.

Your turn.

We are only to answer based on the Truth as GIVEN to us in 1 Thessalonians.

There are no multiple harvests in the Gospel or in 1 Thessalonians.

There it is again. You are trying to be in control of the narrative by repeating your transcription/cliches, whatever.

The Narrative is TRUTH
JESUS is the Narrator
the HOLY SPIRIT is the Author
the Apostle Paul is the Anointed spokesperson

The rules for engagement are:
JESUS - John 17:14-19 - "Thy word is Truth Sanctify them in the Truth"
Prayer - "Sanctify them in the Truth"
Scripture - "Thy word is Truth"
Commandment #1 - John 15:12 - “This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you."
Commandment #2 - Proverbs 30:5-6 - Do not add to God's words
Admonition & Instruction #1 - 2 Timothy 2:25 - Study to shew thyself approved.....accurately handling the word of Truth.

divide the word = who accurately handles
ὀρθοτομοῦντα (orthotomounta)
Verb - Present Participle Active - Accusative Masculine Singular
Strong's Greek 3718: From a compound of orthos and the base of tomoteros, to make a straight cut, i.e. to dissect correctly.

 

[MA2444]

i told you that we love the Lord Jesus Christ = together we are in HIM

i also like quit-whit as long as it can be reciprocal without harm/insult to us or the audience

Between you and me, with respect, humor is good!

That's good.

 

[MA2444]

LOL x1000000000000000000000 = Love it

Now my Brother, it is 'Back to the Future'

3 simple questions:

#1 - What location is JESUS leaving when He comes for the rapture?

#2- Who is HE bringing with Himself?
a.) "the dead in Christ" or
b.) previously raptured saints

#3 - Which occurs FIRST?
a.) the Resurrection or
b.) the Rapture


@Douggg, can you also respond to these 3 questions - thank you

No man. I asked you a couple questions and you wouldnt answer me. SO why should I answer to you and let you control the narrative? I wont. If you want to argue, WPM's good at it, go argue with him. He's that style too.

 

[MA2444]

If you refuse to answer the 3 simple questions , you DEFAULT

Uh-Oh, I better play your game you will use me not talking to you as a way to declare that you have proven pre trib wrong, Lol! Hilarious. Not interested. Go run your game on someone else.

You havent fazed my faith one bit. I know what I know.

So are you going to answer my questions to you? That was fairly slick how you dodged answering what I asked you! And so now, I dont answer your questions and you can play any type of game you choose to. You can pretend to be a woman. You can pretend me not answering you is your proof....What do I care. I dont have to talk to you. Who likes a one sided conversation? Good luck with that.

 

[David in NJ]

That's good.

i am glad Brother

 

[David in NJ]

Uh-Oh, I better play your game you will use me not talking to you as a way to declare that you have proven pre trib wrong, Lol! Hilarious. Not interested. Go run your game on someone else.

You havent fazed my faith one bit. I know what I know.

So are you going to answer my questions to you? That was fairly slick how you dodged answering what I asked you! And so now, I dont answer your questions and you can play any type of game you choose to. You can pretend to be a woman. You can pretend me not answering you is your proof....What do I care. I dont have to talk to you. Who likes a one sided conversation? Good luck with that.

You havent fazed my faith one bit.

i AGREE for your faith is not in God's words given to us in 1 Thessalonians

Your faith is in pre-trib rapture.

That was fairly slick how you dodged answering what I asked you!

Which question specifically for i responded to your question/comment on the Holy Spirit.

Let me know and i will answer - EVEN though you choose to evade 3 simple questions.

 

[David in NJ]

Uh-Oh, I better play your game you will use me not talking to you as a way to declare that you have proven pre trib wrong, Lol! Hilarious. Not interested. Go run your game on someone else.

You havent fazed my faith one bit. I know what I know.

So are you going to answer my questions to you? That was fairly slick how you dodged answering what I asked you! And so now, I dont answer your questions and you can play any type of game you choose to. You can pretend to be a woman. You can pretend me not answering you is your proof....What do I care. I dont have to talk to you. Who likes a one sided conversation? Good luck with that.

You can pretend to be a woman.

LOL

Well you have no shortage of that in today's world - do you!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The "LOL" preface is just a technique to marginalize the other person's comments, without saying something substantive. Please stop.

He marginalizes his own comments by doing nothing to back them up and acting as if he proved something. I didn't LOL in response to his post, but rather to someone else's post related to his posting style. I've already said that I'm going to cut down on the LOLs, so don't worry about that. But, I truly think it's funny that he thinks he proves things without doing anything to actually back up his comments. He makes a lot of claims, but never shows how he comes to his conclusions. Even you try to do that to some extent, but he doesn't do it at all. So, it truly is funny to me tht he thinks he has proven something by just claiming that it is so, as if that's all he needs to do to prove something.

Express your disagreement to what the other person commented in a less aggressive way.

You have this false sense of authority here that you don't possess. I will do as I please here without any need for you to tell me what to do. You are not in a position to tell others how to post after you are so dishonest with scripture over and over again the way you blatantly make scripture say what you want it to say by creating your own definitions for words and such.