It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial

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WPM

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Yeah. I added those trumpets to the Bible. Baloney.

Revelation 22
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

You are taking away words from the prophecy. You pretend the trumpets do not occur in the 7th seal.

Your doctrine fails so you have to leave out half of the Bible to make it work.
SEVENTH TRUMPET - the end!

Revelation 10:1-4 declares, describing the seventh trumpet, “And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire: And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth, And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices. And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.”

The symbolism and authority surrounding this great heavenly angel proves beyond a doubt that it is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ and a picture of His glorious Second Coming. We will the symbolism shortly.

Revelation 10:5-7 says of the Second Advent and the concluding last trumpet, “And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”

There is clearly a major dilemma here for you those who take Revelation to be a literal chronological unfolding of last day events. They must surely concede, if they are going to be consistent with their view that everything after Revelation 11 (which also makes reference to the seventh trumpet) is in the realm of eternity and the after-life. After all Revelation 10 plainly records that with this particular event “there should be time no longer.” For those who would lightly dismiss this important narrative as anything other than a magnificent picture of the Lord Jesus Christ and His glorious Second Coming, they do foolishly ignore the great wealth of explicit and consistent end-time teaching on this subject and divorce the undoubted harmony of this chapter from the rest of New Testament prophetic teaching.

We must first of all recognise, this is the second of seven similar symbolic parallels relating to intra-advent period, each of which take us up to the one final future all-consummating Coming of Christ (the day of God’s wrath) and the end of the world (when time shall undoubtedly be no more). This pattern of repeating the record of the same event from different angles is common throughout Scripture on most themes, none more that the glorious Coming of Christ.

The third parallel in Revelation 11:15 also makes reference to the seventh angel with the last trump, again being in complete agreement with consistent New Testament teaching (including the conclusion of the second parallel in Revelation 10) on this single, final, all-consummating nature of the Second Advent, saying, “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”

This is the end of the old temporal sin-cursed order and the introduction of the new eternal glorified order. Also, the undoubted finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet proves beyond doubt that it is the last trump – the final trumpet sound for all mankind.

Revelation 11:18-19: And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

SEVENTH VIAL - the end!


Rev 16:17-21: "And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great."

Here we see a vivid record of Satan’s great concluding ‘devilish gathering’ just prior to the one final future Coming of Christ. The seventh vial portrays an unmistakable description of the all-consummating Second Coming.

Conclusion

Revelation actually agrees with every other book in the Bible and proves that there is only one future coming of Christ and that the end is the end. This is such a stark contrast to the Pretrib position that has no actual support in the wording of Revelation or in the rest of Scripture.
 
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MA2444

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I report the bible..
They can not debate me honestly.
Accuse us of lying, Antichrist, call us fibers, false prophets, weoponize the Bible in some false goofy character assassination.
Proving they can not debate me.
I post verses
They say I don't.
Then they ask for verses.
Hamster wheel mentality of their utter nothingness. Running in place and decrying " look at me run"
My job is easy.
I have most verses in my spirit.
I simply force them to go against the bible.
Nothing to it.
Their job is to refute verses...not me
They are indeed embarrassed.
Hence the shoddy character exposed.
Very juvenile.
Very shallow.

That does seem to be their M.O., huh?

I tried to get David into discussing the things of the Spirit, and he wouldn't. Or, in fairness, he hasnt yet. I wrote my butt off last night about it and I didnt get one question, not one affirmation, and no scriptures to "prove me wrong". He didnt disagree with me, but for some reason he wont speak of it.

That's very curious to me. WPM or SI wouldnt either when I said some of thse things to them.

Who knows why. But it seems to me that David is sounding more and more like WPM, lol.
Which isnt really funny. As long as they refuse to participate in a real discussion...the truth remains as truth. They can not refute truth and have not. The truth wil syand on it's own...for those with eyes to see and ears to hear.

(No wonder they're so upset? !!)
 

David in NJ

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So why do you have the Church still on the earth during the wrath of God? And if we really want the truth, why do you have the Church going through the tribulation?

We can escape ALL THESE THINGS and stand before the Son of man.
TRUTH = His Church(us) is 'airborne/raptured' BEFORE the WRATH of God = 1 Thess 1:10 & 5:9

TRUTH = JESUS always, again ALWAYS, says to us we have PEACE in Him and Tribulation in the world IF we live for Him.

John 16:33
"These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”

Matthew 24:9 - "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake."
This has never stopped throughout the world as our Brothers/Sisters in Christ continue to be hated and slaughtered.

TRUTH = the Apostles also warn us of the SAME

1 Thess 3:3 - "that no one should be shaken by these afflictions; for you yourselves know that we are appointed to this.
For, in fact, we told you before when we were with you that we would suffer tribulation, just as it happened, and you know."

2 Thess 1:3-5 = We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer;

There is ONLY one group of saints whom God will preserve 'alive and remaining' at His Second Coming = 1 Thess 4:17/Rev 3:7-13
 

MA2444

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Yea, right? More projection. Just like you communicate with those who disagree with you:

Hey, I have an idea! Let's all argue and bicker together instead of addressing the topic all day? Who needs any edifying when we could be having so much fun insulting each other!

Wouldn't that be fun? !!!

NOT.
 
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The Light

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SEVENTH TRUMPET - the end!

Revelation 10:1-4 declares, describing the seventh trumpet, “And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire: And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth, And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices. And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.”

The symbolism and authority surrounding this great heavenly angel proves beyond a doubt that it is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ and a picture of His glorious Second Coming. We will the symbolism shortly.

Revelation 10:5-7 says of the Second Advent and the concluding last trumpet, “And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”

There is clearly a major dilemma here for you those who take Revelation to be a literal chronological unfolding of last day events. They must surely concede, if they are going to be consistent with their view that everything after Revelation 11 (which also makes reference to the seventh trumpet) is in the realm of eternity and the after-life. After all Revelation 10 plainly records that with this particular event “there should be time no longer.” For those who would lightly dismiss this important narrative as anything other than a magnificent picture of the Lord Jesus Christ and His glorious Second Coming, they do foolishly ignore the great wealth of explicit and consistent end-time teaching on this subject and divorce the undoubted harmony of this chapter from the rest of New Testament prophetic teaching.

We must first of all recognise, this is the second of seven similar symbolic parallels relating to intra-advent period, each of which take us up to the one final future all-consummating Coming of Christ (the day of God’s wrath) and the end of the world (when time shall undoubtedly be no more). This pattern of repeating the record of the same event from different angles is common throughout Scripture on most themes, none more that the glorious Coming of Christ.

The third parallel in Revelation 11:15 also makes reference to the seventh angel with the last trump, again being in complete agreement with consistent New Testament teaching (including the conclusion of the second parallel in Revelation 10) on this single, final, all-consummating nature of the Second Advent, saying, “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”

This is the end of the old temporal sin-cursed order and the introduction of the new eternal glorified order. Also, the undoubted finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet proves beyond doubt that it is the last trump – the final trumpet sound for all mankind.

Revelation 11:18-19: And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

SEVENTH VIAL - the end!


Rev 16:17-21: "And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great."

Here we see a vivid record of Satan’s great concluding ‘devilish gathering’ just prior to the one final future Coming of Christ. The seventh vial portrays an unmistakable description of the all-consummating Second Coming.

Conclusion

Revelation actually agrees with every other book in the Bible and proves that there is only one future coming of Christ and that the end is the end. This is such a stark contrast to the Pretrib position that has no actual support in the wording of Revelation or in the rest of Scripture.
Great. Now WHEN does the trumpets of wrath happen. You claim they are a recap. What are they a recap of?
 

David in NJ

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That does seem to be their M.O., huh?

I tried to get David into discussing the things of the Spirit, and he wouldn't. Or, in fairness, he hasnt yet. I wrote my butt off last night about it and I didnt get one question, not one affirmation, and no scriptures to "prove me wrong". He didnt disagree with me, but for some reason he wont speak of it.

That's very curious to me. WPM or SI wouldnt either when I said some of thse things to them.

Who knows why. But it seems to me that David is sounding more and more like WPM, lol.
Which isnt really funny. As long as they refuse to participate in a real discussion...the truth remains as truth. They can not refute truth and have not. The truth wil syand on it's own...for those with eyes to see and ears to hear.

(No wonder they're so upset? !!)
I tried to get David into discussing the things of the Spirit, and he wouldn't.
WHY do you insist with false accusations???

A spiritual minded person loves God's words and would never hide from them!

You have yet to answer the SPIRITUAL questions that lead to TRUTH
answer these 3 simple questions by the Word of the LORD spoken in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

#1 - What location is JESUS leaving when He comes for the rapture?

#2- Who is HE bringing with Himself?
a.) "the dead in Christ" or
b.) previously raptured saints

#3 - Which occurs FIRST?
a.) the Resurrection or
b.) the Rapture

P.S. to EVERYONE = If we STOP now with the pettiness we can PLEASE God by only speaking Truth to one another instead of arguing against it.

This means we DO NOT call Hebrews 13:5 "nutty" or "carnal" or any such scripture like it - OK/AGREE
 
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The Light

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TRUTH = His Church(us) is 'airborne/raptured' BEFORE the WRATH of God = 1 Thess 1:10 & 5:9

TRUTH = JESUS always, again ALWAYS, says to us we have PEACE in Him and Tribulation in the world IF we live for Him.

John 16:33
"These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”

Matthew 24:9 - "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake."
This has never stopped throughout the world as our Brothers/Sisters in Christ continue to be hated and slaughtered.

TRUTH = the Apostles also warn us of the SAME

1 Thess 3:3 - "that no one should be shaken by these afflictions; for you yourselves know that we are appointed to this.
For, in fact, we told you before when we were with you that we would suffer tribulation, just as it happened, and you know."

2 Thess 1:3-5 = We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer;

There is ONLY one group of saints whom God will preserve 'alive and remaining' at His Second Coming = 1 Thess 4:17/Rev 3:7-13
The word says differently.

John 10
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

One fold hears His voice and are raptured at His coming. And then the other fold is regrafted into the olive tree and are raptured at His coming. And both happen before the wrath of God.
 

David in NJ

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The word says differently.

John 10
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

One fold hears His voice and are raptured at His coming. And then the other fold is regrafted into the olive tree and are raptured at His coming. And both happen before the wrath of God.
One fold hears His voice and are raptured at His coming. And then the other fold is regrafted into the olive tree and are raptured at His coming. And both happen before the wrath of God.

You just added to the words of the LORD which is forbidden!

Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.

EXACT words of the LORD:
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice;
and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

CHRIST our Shepherd is RETURNING for One FOLD = Jew & Gentile in Christ = One NEW Man

For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two,
thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.
And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near.
For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
 
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WPM

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I have been in this end times study for over 40 years.
It is I that brought " before the flood" of mat 24 to the table as well as the virgin parable and Rev 14, the gathering of the Jews.

I never heard anyone else bring any of that to the table before I did around 10 years ago. I am one of the few that views end times through PURPOSE.
Wow! You are so full of yourself. You are oozing in pride.

You are the man! You know it all!
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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As usual, you did not address one single point that I made. You cannot because it refutes your position. I will repeat!

Normal life continues on right up until Christ comes. They are eating, drinking and marrying as usual, they are claiming "peace and safety," then utter destruction strikes them unexpectedly. As in the time of the flood, all the unbelievers are destroyed.

There is no space for your tribulation period and a 2nd rapture and a 3rd coming. There is no space for some future millennium. All those that are left behind are destroyed. All the wicked are dead. All the mortals are dead. All the saints are glorified and the earth is glorified. We're now into the eternal state.

Jesus said in Luke 17:24-34: “For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot's wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.”

We note three particular characteristics of this day, which will be repeated at the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. (1) The wicked lived as if there was no judgement coming, verse 38 says, “they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage.” (2) The wicked were caught unexpected, verse 39 says, they “knew not until the flood came.” And finally, (3) the wicked were ALL destroyed, verse 39 says, “the flood came, and took them all away.”

The days before the coming of Christ will see the wicked at ease living in pleasure, sin and carelessness, with no thought of eternity. The everyday occurrences of life (like eating, drinking and marriage) will continue as normal right up until Jesus comes. Christ's coming is going to catch the wicked unexpectedly. His arrival will surprise only those who are not prepared for it. The wrath of God is sudden and totally destructive. No one survives as this passage tells us.

I Thessalonians 5:2-7 the enormity of this climactic event: the day of the Lord will come (or appear or arrive) as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

The peace and safety occurs just before Jesus comes at His one final future coming. Any way, if the day of the Lord in 1 Thessalonians 5:3 relates to a third coming of Christ, as some Pretribbers argue, and if they relate this to the event of Revelation 19, which they say is the end of a great 7 years tribulation, how can the wicked be crying “peace and safety”? Surely, according to Pretrib, this is a period of the wrath of God being poured out on all those left behind according to Pretrib theology?
Pretribs have absolutely no answer for any of this, but they won't admit it. They just ignore the context of these scriptures completely because they just believe what they want to believe.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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Wow! You are so full of yourself. You are oozing in pride.

You are the man! You know it all!
LOL. And, yet, he never exegetes even one verse of scripture. He somehow thinks he knows it all, but at the same time is completely incapable of backing up his prideful claims. No one is more delusional than him.
 
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Douggg

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“And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”
You are quoting Revelation 11:15.

The voices in heaven will be a reaction by them in heaven, when the seventh angel sounds his trumpet, right ? They are rejoicing in Revelation 11:15-17.

And the seventh angel sounding announces the third woe to the inhabiters of the earth, right ?

In Revelation 12:12, when Satan is cast down to earth, following the 1260 day, first half of the 7 years (Revelation 12:6), it says...

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Satan will then have but a time/times/half time left before becoming a terror no more.

--------------------------------------------

The seventh angel sounds his trumpet in heaven before the throne of God. Much anticipated by everyone in heaven, including the 24 elders, because of what is said in Revelation 10.7.

The seventh angel sounds his trumpet - giving the signal to Michael and his angels to cast Satan and his angels down to earth, to end Satan's hold over the kingdoms of this world.

The war in the second heaven then takes place and Satan and his angels are cast down to earth. Having great wrath, knowing his time is short, in Revelation 12:12.

"Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them."

And that is what them in heaven do, when the seventh angel there in heaven sounds his trumpet. Revelation 11:15-17 is their rejoicing reaction.
 
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MA2444

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WHY do you insist with false accusations???

A spiritual minded person loves God's words and would never hide from them!

You have yet to answer the SPIRITUAL questions that lead to TRUTH
answer these 3 simple questions by the Word of the LORD spoken in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

#1 - What location is JESUS leaving when He comes for the rapture?

#2- Who is HE bringing with Himself?
a.) "the dead in Christ" or
b.) previously raptured saints

#3 - Which occurs FIRST?
a.) the Resurrection or
b.) the Rapture

P.S. to EVERYONE = If we STOP now with the pettiness we can PLEASE God by only speaking Truth to one another instead of arguing against it.

This means we DO NOT call Hebrews 13:5 "nutty" or "carnal" or any such scripture like it - OK/AGREE

Whatever. If we have to agree to disagree then maybe you can calm down. It occurs to me that you debate just ike the Democrats do! Did you see the debate between Kamala and Trump? You use the same tactics and gameplan that they do, lol.

And I told you before, if you want to be like that then I just wont talk to you. And here you are persisting to the (transcription? Lol) of your so called argument and I guess you are unable to let it go. Have a good day sir....

That's too bad. Lol.
 
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