It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial

[rebuilder 454]

Those pre-fibbers who get the Rapture Timing wrong(see above) usually get many things wrong.

Ain't that the TRUTH

That sums up your position.
Name calling and without any substance. .
You don't have much to offer.
You " KNOW for a fact " you hate any notion of a pretrib rapture.
But without a single postrib rapture verse.

When I bring in heavens heartbeat of the bride and bridegroom, you wildly invoke satan,, screaming "spirit of antichrist" without any knowledge of the subject.

I would say that is WHY you revert to name calling and generalized safe Statements.

 

[David in NJ]

You have no idea what I said and what you are saying.
The ENTIRE THEME of end times is the bride and groom.
SMH

The ENTIRE THEME of end times is the bride and groom.

ABSOLUTELY TRUE = 100% PURE TRUTH from God's Mouth to our ears!!!

 

[rebuilder 454]

A perfect title for them since I assume that wasn't a typo---pre-fibbers. I like it. I'm sure they don't, though. But that is their problem not mine. After all, they are the ones contradicting Scripture after Scripture by insisting the rapture precedes great tribulation rather than follows it. Sounds like fibbing to me. They have the dead rising from the dead unable to put on bodily immortality once they rise since bodily immortality is meaning post trib not pre trib. And that is just one of the numerous Scriptures their view contradicts.

Juvenile and cheap.
...and you guys celebrate your shallowness.

 

[David in NJ]

That sums up your position.
Name calling and without any substance. .
You don't have much to offer.
You " KNOW for a fact " you hate any notion of a pretrib rapture.
But without a single postrib rapture verse.

When I bring in heavens heartbeat of the bride and bridegroom, you wildly invoke satan,, screaming "spirit of antichrist" without any knowledge of the subject.

I would say that is WHY you revert to name calling and generalized safe Statements.

Why do you do say this?

Believe JESUS lately?, or not so much?

JESUS says: Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The ENTIRE Scriptures from Genesis to Revelation is Post-trib which is PRE- WRATH Deliverance.

SEE = "wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath."

 

[David in NJ]

That sums up your position.
Name calling and without any substance. .
You don't have much to offer.
You " KNOW for a fact " you hate any notion of a pretrib rapture.
But without a single postrib rapture verse.

When I bring in heavens heartbeat of the bride and bridegroom, you wildly invoke satan,, screaming "spirit of antichrist" without any knowledge of the subject.

I would say that is WHY you revert to name calling and generalized safe Statements.

post 964 edited

 

[David in NJ]

to my Brothers in Christ, @rebuilder 454 @MA2444 @The Light @Ronald D Milam

i will FULLY apologize and REJOICE in TRUTH if you can just find the TRUTH:

1.) Scripture from any OT Prophet, JESUS or the Apostles that proclaim/prophecy of the Rapture of His Bride BEFORE the Resurrection at His Coming.

2.) Scripture where JESUS proclaims: My elect/saints/bride/church will NOT see the AoD

3.) Scripture where the Apostles proclaim: My elect/saints/bride/church will NOT see the AoD

4.) OT Prophets proclaiming/prophecy of a pre-trib rapture for the saints/elect/congregation BEFORE Tribulation and/or the AoD

5.) NT declaration/prophecy of separating Jew from Gentile in the Body of Christ.

6.) Scripture from any OT Prophet, any of the Apostles and/or the LORD proclaiming His elect/saints/bride/church will NOT suffer tribulation unto death via a pre-trib rapture.
*** with the EXCEPTION of those who will be alive and remaining at His Coming = 1 Thess 4:17***

 

[MA2444]

#1 - False prophesying is sin
#2 - It DIVIDES the Body of Christ = another sin that God hates
#3 - It is the SAME coercive bully tactics used by those in leadership position to make disciples of themselves instead of disciples of the Holy Spirit = see Acts/Stephen
#4 - It deceives christians to be "respecter of persons" = doctorate of divinity = another illusion of superiority = antichrist
#5 - It will undermine the faith of many when it is exposed as the lie it is.

#1. Have a look at Matthew 24:44 and it says be ready All the time. We're supposed to be watching for Him. So it aint sin to be watching for Him NOW rather than later. (That dont compute)

Matthew 24:44
44 You also must be ready all the time, for the Son of Man will come when least expected.../KJV

That's Jesus talking there. It's not false prophecy either. It remains to be proven one way or the other. Whatsoever is not done in Faith is Sin...I am Pretrib in faith. I want Him to come sooner, lol! I am eager for Him to come! So there is no sin there. Is there a sin intention? No! Doesnt the Lord look at the heart? (so at your intentions!) No Broher, this is not a false prophecy until the rapture dont happen pretrib. IF it does or doesnt, then it will be proven one way or the other. Right? Tell me where I sin by hoping Jesus will come tonight!

#2 I dont feel divided from you or posttribbers. We are all the body of Christ. Arguing about doctrine is stupid, and I;m just as guilty as anyone else. (maybe not WPM, lol) J/K.
This is a non-salvific issue of exactly when the rapture will be. If I'm pretrib wrong, then prolly not anything bad will happen to me, I was just overly eager. If you're wrong (posttribber) then your still saved but have to go though the G. Trib and miss the biggest best BBQ that this Universe has ever seen before, right? The Marriage Supper of the Lamb. That's going to be big. But there's no division over it in my mind. You hold to some slightly different doctrinal ideas than I do but it's the same God. We're one in Christ, as the body of Christ. Is it not written to be so? Of course it is! There isnt any division except in the heart of man. We're one in Christ whether aanyone likes it or not!
Perspective. I'm learning from this thread. In the early pages I was being just as snappy to (certain) post tribbers as they was being. Those two arent trying to get the truth, they just want to argue! That's not edifying at all.

So in my best Yoda voice, there is no division where you believe there is no division.
And it's true. so called division and bickering is childish and a waste of time. The Lord wants to come back and find mature Christians, not squalling baby infants. So it behooves us all to take that perspective of no bickering or division but rather efforts towards unification of the body. So everybody believes slightly differently than other Brothers & Sisters, so what? We all have our own path and the Lord is leading us all to the same place where we will be one with Him (and each other!) so it should become easier to not hold a view of division with your Brothers & Sisters in Christ. Make sense? It does to me.

 

[David in NJ]

#1. Have a look at Matthew 24:44 and it says be ready All the time. We're supposed to be watching for Him. So it aint sin to be watching for Him NOW rather than later. (That dont compute)

Matthew 24:44
44 You also must be ready all the time, for the Son of Man will come when least expected.../KJV

That's Jesus talking there. It's not false prophecy either. It remains to be proven one way or the other. Whatsoever is not done in Faith is Sin...I am Pretrib in faith. I want Him to come sooner, lol! I am eager for Him to come! So there is no sin there. Is there a sin intention? No! Doesnt the Lord look at the heart? (so at your intentions!) No Broher, this is not a false prophecy until the rapture dont happen pretrib. IF it does or doesnt, then it will be proven one way or the other. Right? Tell me where I sin by hoping Jesus will come tonight!

This is a non-salvific issue of exactly when the rapture will be. If I'm pretrib wrong, then prolly not anything bad will happen to me, I was just overly eager. If you're wrong (posttribber) then your still saved but have to go though the G. Trib and miss the biggest best BBQ that this Universe has ever seen before, right? The Marriage Supper of the Lamb. That's going to be big. But there's no division over it in my mind. You hold to some slightly different doctrinal ideas than I do but it's the same God. We're one in Christ, as the body of Christ. Is it not written to be so? Of course it is! There isnt any division except in the heart of man. We're one in Christ whether aanyone likes it or not!
Perspective. I'm learning from this thread. In the early pages I was being just as snappy to (certain) post tribbers as they was being. Those two arent trying to get the truth, they just want to argue! That's not edifying at all.

So in my best Yoda voice, there is no division where you believe there is no division.
And it's true. so called division and bickering is childish and a waste of time. The Lord wants to come back and find mature Christians, not squalling baby infants. So it behooves us all to take that perspective of no bickering or division but rather efforts towards unification of the body. So everybody believes slightly differently than other Brothers & Sisters, so what? We all have our own path and the Lord is leading us all to the same place where we will be one with Him (and each other!) so it should become easier to not hold a view of division with your Brothers & Sisters in Christ. Make sense? It does to me.

#1. Have a look at Matthew 24:44 and it says be ready All the time. We're supposed to be watching for Him. So it aint sin to be watching for Him NOW rather than later. (That dont compute)

Matthew 24:44
44 You also must be ready all the time, for the Son of Man will come when least expected.../KJV

100% AGREE and 100% TRUTH

Are you willing to acknowledge when HE says this? = "It is AFTER the Tribulation of those days."

Secondly, we only live a very very short time = God says our life is a vapor that is short and then gone!
This is why the LORD instructs us to be busy in the Kingdom of God by preaching the Gospel.
Not any one of us knows what day or hour our LORD is coming for us!!!

==============================================================================

#2 I dont feel divided from you or posttribbers. We are all the body of Christ. Arguing about doctrine is stupid, and I;m just as guilty as anyone else. (maybe not WPM, lol) J/K.

LOVE IT Brother

Just be careful though - God has Promised HE will not leave any of His "behind"
Doctors of divinity threatening christians with "LEFT BEHIND" is more then "stupid", it is pure evil = the same evil the Serpent spoke to Eve.
It is the SAME idolatry as the Pope telling christians to pray to Mary!!!

 

[Davidpt]

Juvenile and cheap.
...and you guys celebrate your shallowness.

Unfortunately, me being juvenile and cheap according to you, which may even be true in this case, is the least of your worries once great tribulation is upon us big time and that all of you Pretribbers are still here. Apparently, that is the only thing that is going to convince you that you have been wrong all along. But then it might be too late since some might want to take the easy way out yet again, but this time by falling away and worshiping the beast instead. I'm not saying that will happen. I'm saying it's a possibility the fact Pretribbers are notorious for wanting to find ways to escape the inevitable, that the church will go through great tribulation from start to finish. And one way to escape great tribulation would be by worshiping the beast since it wouldn't be persecuting and killing anyone worshiping it.

 

[David in NJ]

@MA2444 @rebuilder 454 @The Light @Ronald D Milam

Some of my Brothers in CHRIST will not talk with me because I shared with them the error of pre-trib rapture.

Yet, i continue to love them and will fellowship with any true Brother who believes in pre-trib.

My heart my home my support is open to all who love the LORD Jesus Christ

Good Night my Brothers in Christ Jesus our LORD

 

[MA2444]

#1 - False prophesying is sin
#2 - It DIVIDES the Body of Christ = another sin that God hates
#3 - It is the SAME coercive bully tactics used by those in leadership position to make disciples of themselves instead of disciples of the Holy Spirit = see Acts/Stephen
#4 - It deceives christians to be "respecter of persons" = doctorate of divinity = another illusion of superiority = antichrist
#5 - It will undermine the faith of many when it is exposed as the lie it is.

#3 ?? What are you talking about? Oh, I know. Maany people are prone to bickering. I'm learning to get past that. Is is it a stage people go through? And if we dont strive for unification of the body...I dunno, we might be found to be lacking? We're supposed to be learning to Love our Neighbors as ourselves. Bless your enemies and all that.

Maybe some people like arguing. But I have to wish to stagnate with unprofitable distractions. That's why I mostly stopped talking to a couple of those guys. I dont want to stagnate, I want to grow. Maybe as I write this, I speak more to myself than to you?

#4 Believing pretrib deceives Christians to be respecter of persons? An illusion of superiority? (can you hear youself?!). That's the thing about growing closer to the Lord...you dont grow superior, you grow to be humble! For many reasons. No one is better than anyone else. I'm certainly not. I'm 62 now and the older I get the less I feel I know. So where is my superiority? I have none. Pride isnt much of a problem for me, lol. I'm living in poverty. (I learned that there is a lot of security in Poverty! It keeps me clinging to the Lord!) But I have learned to be content with what I have at any moment. I'm doing ok, the Lord feeds me every day and the lights are still on, lol!

The way I figure it, we were only taught about the material world, so that is what we believe for the most part. But scripture say look to the unseen. Lift up our spirit to God and elevate our focus to God and not to the material world. ...And I was like, so I have no idea how to live as a spiritual being. I have to learn how to live all over again! I aint superior to anyone. Watch out for the distractions. The enemy likes to get people all worked up and arguing instead of....being at peace wile we discuss scripture and doctrine. It's a distraction to lead us away from connecting with the Lord on a more intimate level. It isnt how we finish the game, it's our intention and heart and effort that we make while we are playing it.

The victory is won by Jesus. But we must now enforce the victory until He comes. and grow spiritually while learning to love our neighbors...and declaring the good news of the Gospel of course.
So I dont want to argue. But we can talk, as Brothers in Christ if you can. If it was me and I accused you of thinking your superior then I would be repenting from that and asking forgiveness. Not telling you what to do, that's me.

 

[David in NJ]

#3 ?? What are you talking about? Oh, I know. Maany people are prone to bickering. I'm learning to get past that. Is is it a stage people go through? And if we dont strive for unification of the body...I dunno, we might be found to be lacking? We're supposed to be learning to Love our Neighbors as ourselves. Bless your enemies and all that.

Maybe some people like arguing. But I have to wish to stagnate with unprofitable distractions. That's why I mostly stopped talking to a couple of those guys. I dont want to stagnate, I want to grow. Maybe as I write this, I speak more to myself than to you?

#4 Believing pretrib deceives Christians to be respecter of persons? An illusion of superiority? (can you hear youself?!). That's the thing about growing closer to the Lord...you dont grow superior, you grow to be humble! For many reasons. No one is better than anyone else. I'm certainly not. I'm 62 now and the older I get the less I feel I know. So where is my superiority? I have none. Pride isnt much of a problem for me, lol. I'm living in poverty. (I learned that there is a lot of security in Poverty! It keeps me clinging to the Lord!) But I have learned to be content with what I have at any moment. I'm doing ok, the Lord feeds me every day and the lights are still on, lol!

The way I figure it, we were only taught about the material world, so that is what we believe for the most part. But scripture say look to the unseen. Lift up our spirit to God and elevate our focus to God and not to the material world. ...And I was like, so I have no idea how to live as a spiritual being. I have to learn how to live all over again! I aint superior to anyone. Watch out for the distractions. The enemy likes to get people all worked up and arguing instead of....being at peace wile we discuss scripture and doctrine. It's a distraction to lead us away from connecting with the Lord on a more intimate level. It isnt how we finish the game, it's our intention and heart and effort that we make while we are playing it.

The victory is won by Jesus. But we must now enforce the victory until He comes. and grow spiritually while learning to love our neighbors...and declaring the good news of the Gospel of course.
So I dont want to argue. But we can talk, as Brothers in Christ if you can. If it was me and I accused you of thinking your superior then I would be repenting from that and asking forgiveness. Not telling you what to do, that's me.

Doctorate of divinity = (can you hear yourself?!!!)

If the Apostles were around today(they are, in the Living Scriptures) they would REBUKE them sternly and QUICKLY.

The same pharisees, saducees, scribes, lawyers, doctors, wealthy men are here today as they were when JESUS walked this earth.


this is a heads UP for everyone: Why did God sternly warn the Israelites that ONLY one Temple was to be built and only in Jerusalem?

 

[David in NJ]

@MA2444

God has commanded us to only believe His words and do not have respect of persons in your heart/judgment.

JESUS says this is how you will know the truth: Answer any of the questions below with TRUTH = "Thy word is Truth"

1.) Scripture from any OT Prophet, JESUS or the Apostles that proclaim/prophecy of the Rapture of His Bride BEFORE the Resurrection at His Coming.

2.) Scripture where JESUS proclaims: My elect/saints/bride/church will NOT see the AoD

3.) Scripture where the Apostles proclaim: My elect/saints/bride/church will NOT see the AoD

4.) OT Prophets proclaiming/prophecy of a pre-trib rapture for the saints/elect/congregation BEFORE Tribulation and/or the AoD

5.) NT declaration/prophecy of separating Jew from Gentile in the Body of Christ.

6.) Scripture from any OT Prophet, any of the Apostles and/or the LORD proclaiming His elect/saints/bride/church will NOT suffer tribulation unto death via a pre-trib rapture.
*** with the EXCEPTION of those who will be alive and remaining at His Coming = 1 Thess 4:17***

 

[MA2444]

#1 - False prophesying is sin
#2 - It DIVIDES the Body of Christ = another sin that God hates
#3 - It is the SAME coercive bully tactics used by those in leadership position to make disciples of themselves instead of disciples of the Holy Spirit = see Acts/Stephen
#4 - It deceives christians to be "respecter of persons" = doctorate of divinity = another illusion of superiority = antichrist
#5 - It will undermine the faith of many when it is exposed as the lie it is.

#5 You think that believing and speak pre trib would undermine the Faith of weaker Christians? Not so! Because a pre trib belief brings a sense of urgency with it. So all we're doing is believing and looking for the Lord to return even tonight or tomorrow! What would you do if you knew the rapture woud be tonight? I bet you'd be Praying to the Lord! WHo wouldnt?! Making sure that we are all confessed up and connected with the Lord and being led by the Spirit...that we may be found to be worthy to escape things that will come on the earth. I sure wouldnt wanto miss the rapture if it did turn out to be pre trib! Maybe post tribbers think they can sleep for awhile because other things have to happen? That would be embarassing if you wasnt ready and the rapture was pretrib. Besides, how could it undermine anyones faith? I reject that statement.
So one guy is ready and waiting and one guy is sleeping (so to speak), so if the super Jesus Freaks was watching for the Lord's return and rapture now, and it doesnt happen today...then how much more so tomorrow? Did I forget to confess anything? Love enough people and help them? Ok so maybe I'll even do more tomorrow than today in preperation for the Lord which is only going to draw me closer to the Lord, then He will draw closer to me.

So I submit to you that the pretrib believers will have a better relationship with the Lord than the post tribbers because they were looking for Him sooner rather than later and so developed a closer relationship with Him and spent more time with Him. They are still saved but will miss the BBQ and have to go through the Great Trib.

Up to you. But dont believe me! Read the Word for yourself, and pray about all this stuff. Then you will know. And hopefully you remember that we are all Brothers & Sisters in Christ so...it's a lot better when you dont talk in a divisive manner?!

Got anything else? My faith hasnt wavered one little bit. It could still be tonight!

Come, Lord Jesus!

 

[MA2444]

You MISSED the DIRECT Warning of the LORD = "there is no pre-trib rapture, therefore DO NOT go looking for it!

Scripture?

 

[Davidpt]

Thinking out loud here. Let's just reason things the way Preterists reasons things, that 'great tribulation' is already in the past, it happened in the first century involving 70 AD. Therefore, Pretribbers have nothing to fear to begin with, right?

Or let's just reason things the way both Preterists and Pretribbers reason things, that 'great tribulation' is the wrath of God, it is the wrath of God upon the Jews rather than the wrath of satan upon the church. As if the following means there is absolutely nothing to be concerned about--Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time(Revelation 12:12). Let's just call it God's wrath instead, that that explains great tribulation, and not satan's great wrath.

 

[David in NJ]

Scripture?

Matthew chapter 24 - how is it you missed it?

pre-trib rapture? scripture? Why are you evading???

God has commanded us to only believe His words and do not have respect of persons in your heart/judgment.

JESUS says this is how you will know the truth: Answer any of the questions below with TRUTH = "Thy word is Truth"

1.) Scripture from any OT Prophet, JESUS or the Apostles that proclaim/prophecy of the Rapture of His Bride BEFORE the Resurrection at His Coming.

2.) Scripture where JESUS proclaims: My elect/saints/bride/church will NOT see the AoD

3.) Scripture where the Apostles proclaim: My elect/saints/bride/church will NOT see the AoD

4.) OT Prophets proclaiming/prophecy of a pre-trib rapture for the saints/elect/congregation BEFORE Tribulation and/or the AoD

5.) NT declaration/prophecy of separating Jew from Gentile in the Body of Christ.

6.) Scripture from any OT Prophet, any of the Apostles and/or the LORD proclaiming His elect/saints/bride/church will NOT suffer tribulation unto death via a pre-trib rapture.
*** with the EXCEPTION of those who will be alive and remaining at His Coming = 1 Thess 4:17**

 

[The Light]

Why do you do say this?

Believe JESUS lately?, or not so much?

JESUS says: Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The ENTIRE Scriptures from Genesis to Revelation is Post-trib which is PRE- WRATH Deliverance.

SEE = "wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath."

So you understand that the tribulation is over at the 6th seal. That's great.

How is it that you do not understand who is raptured at the 6th seal?
How is it that you do not understand the wrath of God begins when the 7th seal is opened?
How is it that you do not understand the Church is raptured before the tribulation?
How is it that you do not understand your view has the Church going through the wrath of God?
How is it that you do not understand there are two raptures, grain and fruit?
How is it that you do not understand who the foolish virgins are?????????????????????????

You understand one thing.........the tribulation is over at the 6th seal.......and are blindly in error of everything else.

The Church in heaven in Rev 5 before the seals are opened is proof that there is a rapture before the tribulation. How is it you do not understand these things?

 

[WPM]

So you understand that the tribulation is over at the 6th seal. That's great.

How is it that you do not understand who is raptured at the 6th seal?
How is it that you do not understand the wrath of God begins when the 7th seal is opened?
How is it that you do not understand the Church is raptured before the tribulation?
How is it that you do not understand your view has the Church going through the wrath of God?
How is it that you do not understand there are two raptures, grain and fruit?
How is it that you do not understand who the foolish virgins are?????????????????????????

You understand one thing.........the tribulation is over at the 6th seal.......and are blindly in error of everything else.

The Church in heaven in Rev 5 before the seals are opened is proof that there is a rapture before the tribulation. How is it you do not understand these things?

1. There is no ushering the Church into heaven in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9.
2. There is no tribulation period in-between “the coming of the Lord” (and the catching away of the saints) and “the day of the Lord” (and the sudden destruction of the wicked, from which none escape) 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9. This is one event.
3. There is no 3rd coming in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9.
4. There are no survivors in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5. None shall escape.

 

[The Light]

Or let's just reason things the way both Preterists and Pretribbers reason things, that 'great tribulation' is the wrath of God,

This is a great point. The pretribbers are in error thinking that the great tribulation is the wrath of God

However, you are in error, thinking there is not a pre tribulation rapture. There are two raptures, one before the tribulation for the Church and one for the Jews that are grafted back in............before the wrath of God.