It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial

[rebuilder 454]

@rwb may be right in saying they were the Old Testament dead in Christ but I tend to think the 144,000 were the first to enter the kingdom of heaven that Jesus brought in when he came.

No.
They are amil.
The most twisted end times mismatched buffets you could belly up to.
One bizarre grand canyon leap after another.
Ask them if Satan is bound, and all the other stuff they shove into history.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Normal life continues on right up until Christ comes. They are eating, drinking and marrying as usual, they are claiming "peace and safety," then utter destruction strikes them unexpectedly. As in the time of the flood, all the unbelievers are destroyed.

There is no space for your tribulation period and a 2nd rapture and a 3rd coming. There is no space for some future millennium. All those that are left behind are destroyed. All the wicked are dead. All the mortals are dead. All the saints are glorified and the earth is glorified. We're now into the eternal state.

Jesus said in Luke 17:24-34: “For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot's wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.”

We note three particular characteristics of this day, which will be repeated at the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. (1) The wicked lived as if there was no judgement coming, verse 38 says, “they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage.” (2) The wicked were caught unexpected, verse 39 says, they “knew not until the flood came.” And finally, (3) the wicked were ALL destroyed, verse 39 says, “the flood came, and took them all away.”

The days before the coming of Christ will see the wicked at ease living in pleasure, sin and carelessness, with no thought of eternity. The everyday occurrences of life (like eating, drinking and marriage) will continue as normal right up until Jesus comes. Christ's coming is going to catch the wicked unexpectedly. His arrival will surprise only those who are not prepared for it. The wrath of God is sudden and totally destructive. No one survives as this passage tells us.

I Thessalonians 5:2-7 the enormity of this climactic event: “the day of the Lord will come (or appear or arrive) as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

The peace and safety occurs just before Jesus comes at His one final future coming. Any way, if the day of the Lord in 1 Thessalonians 5:3 relates to a third coming of Christ, as some Pretribbers argue, and if they relate this to the event of Revelation 19, which they say is the end of a great 7 years tribulation, how can the wicked be crying “peace and safety”? Surely, according to Pretrib, this is a period of the wrath of God being poured out on all those left behind according to Pretrib theology?

I guess if Satan is already bound then the AC has come and gone many many years ago, huh?

 

[rebuilder 454]

@rwb may be right in saying they were the Old Testament dead in Christ but I tend to think the 144,000 were the first to enter the kingdom of heaven that Jesus brought in when he came.

You amil adherent?

 

[rebuilder 454]

Please identify the passage of scripture wherein is stated "white horses", if other then here in Revelation

Revelation 19:11-16
Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS
AND
LORD OF LORDS.

The 2nd Coming is on white horses.( yes Rev 19)
Again I ask
Is that the rapture?
Very simple question.

 

[rwb]

We’ve already discussed this on another thread and you did the same thing in that you’re doing here.

BARE GRAIN is not the body, BARE GRAIN is the soul.

1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It (the soul) is sown in corruption (the body); it is raised in incorruption:

But you prefer:

1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It (the body) is sown in corruption (the body); it is raised in incorruption:

Yes, when the natural body (physical) dies it returns to dust, but as "bare grain" the spiritual body without physical form is raised to heaven. Then when time given mankind whereby they must be saved has ended, our natural body too shall be resurrected immortal & incorruptible, made alive through our spirit that comes back with Christ, now fit to live with Christ throughout eternity.

Most people miss the raising of the spiritual body when our natural body dies. There is a common belief that Paul is speaking only of our bodily resurrection to come, thinking it will be resurrected a spiritual body. Some believe our new spiritual body that is actually a physical body made alive through the spirit, will have supernatural abilities. I don't see this at all. I believe that when our natural physical body is resurrected it will be immortal & incorruptible for everlasting life on the new earth. Because the first heavens and earth were created to be the home for physical flesh, so why would the new heaven and earth be made new again for spiritual bodies? On earth the new earth to come, I believe we will be as we were in the beginning before sin and death entered into God's creation.

 

[IndianaRob]

No.
They are amil.
The most twisted end times mismatched buffets you could belly up to.
One bizarre grand canyon leap after another.
Ask them if Satan is bound, and all the other stuff they shove into history.

I agree they twist a lot of scripture both sides do though.

 

[IndianaRob]

You amil adherent?

I beleive the millennium is life in the kingdom of heaven that Jesus died to bring into this world.

That being said I don’t agree with almost anything an amil believes.

 

[IndianaRob]

Yes, when the natural body (physical) dies it returns to dust, but as "bare grain" the spiritual body without physical form is raised to heaven. Then when time given mankind whereby they must be saved has ended, our natural body too shall be resurrected immortal & incorruptible, made alive through our spirit that comes back with Christ, now fit to live with Christ throughout eternity.

Most people miss the raising of the spiritual body when our natural body dies. There is a common belief that Paul is speaking only of our bodily resurrection to come, thinking it will be resurrected a spiritual body. Some believe our new spiritual body that is actually a physical body made alive through the spirit, will have supernatural abilities. I don't see this at all. I believe that when our natural physical body is resurrected it will be immortal & incorruptible for everlasting life on the new earth. Because the first heavens and earth were created to be the home for physical flesh, so why would the new heaven and earth be made new again for spiritual bodies? On earth the new earth to come, I believe we will be as we were in the beginning before sin and death entered into God's creation.

Show me the future bodily resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15.

It’s not there nor is it anywhere else in scripture because dead earthly bodies have nothing to do with the resurrection.

 

[WPM]

I guess if Satan is already bound then the AC has come and gone many many years ago, huh?

As usual, you did not address one single point that I made. You cannot because it refutes your position. I will repeat!

Normal life continues on right up until Christ comes. They are eating, drinking and marrying as usual, they are claiming "peace and safety," then utter destruction strikes them unexpectedly. As in the time of the flood, all the unbelievers are destroyed.

There is no space for your tribulation period and a 2nd rapture and a 3rd coming. There is no space for some future millennium. All those that are left behind are destroyed. All the wicked are dead. All the mortals are dead. All the saints are glorified and the earth is glorified. We're now into the eternal state.

Jesus said in Luke 17:24-34: “For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot's wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.”

We note three particular characteristics of this day, which will be repeated at the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. (1) The wicked lived as if there was no judgement coming, verse 38 says, “they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage.” (2) The wicked were caught unexpected, verse 39 says, they “knew not until the flood came.” And finally, (3) the wicked were ALL destroyed, verse 39 says, “the flood came, and took them all away.”

The days before the coming of Christ will see the wicked at ease living in pleasure, sin and carelessness, with no thought of eternity. The everyday occurrences of life (like eating, drinking and marriage) will continue as normal right up until Jesus comes. Christ's coming is going to catch the wicked unexpectedly. His arrival will surprise only those who are not prepared for it. The wrath of God is sudden and totally destructive. No one survives as this passage tells us.

I Thessalonians 5:2-7 the enormity of this climactic event: “the day of the Lord will come (or appear or arrive) as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

The peace and safety occurs just before Jesus comes at His one final future coming. Any way, if the day of the Lord in 1 Thessalonians 5:3 relates to a third coming of Christ, as some Pretribbers argue, and if they relate this to the event of Revelation 19, which they say is the end of a great 7 years tribulation, how can the wicked be crying “peace and safety”? Surely, according to Pretrib, this is a period of the wrath of God being poured out on all those left behind according to Pretrib theology?

 

[David in NJ]

So basically what your saying here is Paul got the seed analogy wrong and he should’ve used a potted plant analogy.

Put the patted plant (the body) in the ground and then when the potted plant dies its resurrected as a brand new plant.

That’s not what Paul said and that’s not the point Paul was making using the seed analogy.

That would be teh WRONG analogy!

Paul said SEED not plant!

JESUS said SEED

3“Listen! Behold, a sower went out to sow. 4And it happened, as he sowed, that some seed fell by the wayside; and the birds [a]of the air came and devoured it. 5Some fell on stony ground, where it did not have much earth; and immediately it sprang up because it had no depth of earth. 6But when the sun was up it was scorched, and because it had no root it withered away. 7And some seed fell among thorns; and the thorns grew up and choked it, and it yielded no crop. 8But other seed fell on good ground and yielded a crop that sprang up, increased and produced: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred.”

9And He said to them, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”

Open UP them ears my Brother - and Good Morning

 

[IndianaRob]

That would be teh WRONG analogy!

Paul said SEED not plant!

JESUS said SEED

3“Listen! Behold, a sower went out to sow. 4And it happened, as he sowed, that some seed fell by the wayside; and the birds [a]of the air came and devoured it. 5Some fell on stony ground, where it did not have much earth; and immediately it sprang up because it had no depth of earth. 6But when the sun was up it was scorched, and because it had no root it withered away. 7And some seed fell among thorns; and the thorns grew up and choked it, and it yielded no Mark 4 NKJVcrop. 8But other seed fell on good ground and yielded a crop that sprang up, increased and produced: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred.”

9And He said to them, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear!”

Open UP them ears my Brother - and Good Morning

Good morning brother.

 

[David in NJ]

The 2nd Coming is on white horses.( yes Rev 19)
Again I ask
Is that the rapture?
Very simple question.

Rev 19 is the Second Coming

Now since it is the Second Coming, and the Scripture cannot lie, then we KNOW that the Resurrection and Rapture is COMING to TOWN

 

[rwb]

Show me the future bodily resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15.

It’s not there nor is it anywhere else in scripture because dead earthly bodies have nothing to do with the resurrection.

After telling us our natural body will die and be raised a spiritual body, Paul then addresses the resurrection of the dead this discussion specifically questioned. Because some did not believe there would be a resurrection at all for those who had died, or anyone else so they were not convinced that Christ had resurrected from the dead.

1 Corinthians 15:35 (KJV) But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

1 Corinthians 15:51-54 (KJV) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Since our natural body shall die, for us to be complete living souls again for the new earth, our natural body must be resurrected to immortality and incorruption.

 

[rwb]

As usual, you did not address one single point that I made. You cannot because it refutes your position. I will repeat!

Normal life continues on right up until Christ comes. They are eating, drinking and marrying as usual, they are claiming "peace and safety," then utter destruction strikes them unexpectedly. As in the time of the flood, all the unbelievers are destroyed.

There is no space for your tribulation period and a 2nd rapture and a 3rd coming. There is no space for some future millennium. All those that are left behind are destroyed. All the wicked are dead. All the mortals are dead. All the saints are glorified and the earth is glorified. We're now into the eternal state.

Jesus said in Luke 17:24-34: “For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot's wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.”

We note three particular characteristics of this day, which will be repeated at the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. (1) The wicked lived as if there was no judgement coming, verse 38 says, “they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage.” (2) The wicked were caught unexpected, verse 39 says, they “knew not until the flood came.” And finally, (3) the wicked were ALL destroyed, verse 39 says, “the flood came, and took them all away.”

The days before the coming of Christ will see the wicked at ease living in pleasure, sin and carelessness, with no thought of eternity. The everyday occurrences of life (like eating, drinking and marriage) will continue as normal right up until Jesus comes. Christ's coming is going to catch the wicked unexpectedly. His arrival will surprise only those who are not prepared for it. The wrath of God is sudden and totally destructive. No one survives as this passage tells us.

I Thessalonians 5:2-7 the enormity of this climactic event: “the day of the Lord will come (or appear or arrive) as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

The peace and safety occurs just before Jesus comes at His one final future coming. Any way, if the day of the Lord in 1 Thessalonians 5:3 relates to a third coming of Christ, as some Pretribbers argue, and if they relate this to the event of Revelation 19, which they say is the end of a great 7 years tribulation, how can the wicked be crying “peace and safety”? Surely, according to Pretrib, this is a period of the wrath of God being poured out on all those left behind according to Pretrib theology?

It seems to be a complete act of futility to address their opinions!

 

[The Light]

Rev 14 in no way is the coming of Jesus. It is the gathering of the Jews to heaven.
It is The covenant Jews grafted back in through Jesus.

I think you need to understand what you're reading and Revelation 19. It says after these things. It says after the things that have been described in the Wrath starting in Revelation 15 on through Revelation 18.

Rev 19
1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

The 2 ND coming is on white horses. Nobody on TV Cas wiggle out of it.
The white horse coming is to destroy the army of Satan and the AC, and to set up the millennial reign.
There is no 2nd Coming before the wrath is poured out.

Note that you have now gained the praise of postribbers.

When I say the second coming, I am saying that Jesus comes and remains in the clouds. It is not the coming of Jesus with armies of heaven.

Jesus comes at the 6th seal. It is a harvest. He comes for the Jews. It is the coming of Jesus in Rev 14. It is not the coming of Jesus in Rev 19.

 

[The Light]

Rev 19 is the Second Coming

Now since it is the Second Coming, and the Scripture cannot lie, then we KNOW that the Resurrection and Rapture is COMING to TOWN

The 6th seal is the second coming. Jesus remains in the clouds for a harvest. Hence the great multitude in Rev 7. After the marriage supper of the Lamb Jesus returns with the armies of heaven for Armageddon.

 

[David in NJ]

When I say the second coming, I am saying that Jesus comes and remains in the clouds. It is not the coming of Jesus with armies of heaven.

Jesus comes at the 6th seal. It is a harvest. He comes for the Jews. It is the coming of Jesus in Rev 14. It is not the coming of Jesus in Rev 19.

Good Morning,

the 6th Seal is a PREVIEW of Revelation 19

Revelation is a SERIES of VISIONS given to the Apostle John that are:

#1- Actual = the 7 Churches / JESUS / Saints / Angels / Devil(s)

#2 - Inside LOOK in HEAVEN

#3 - Prophetic = things that MUST take place

#4 - COMPLETE = no new revelation beyond this BOOK = Revelation 22: 18-19

 

[David in NJ]

The 6th seal is the second coming. Jesus remains in the clouds for a harvest. Hence the great multitude in Rev 7. After the marriage supper of the Lamb Jesus returns with the armies of heaven for Armageddon.

Post 838 edited

 

[David in NJ]

@rebuilder 454

Please review Post 838

 

[The Light]

....and it is over not recognizing the GT is 7 years. With the white horses 2 coming at the end of those 7 years, as to why you are NOT UNDERSTANDING what you are reading.
Hello..changing Noah and Lot examples by Jesus....just for starters.

You are one of the few that I have come across that realizes that Jesus comes for the Jews. You also believe in a pretrib rapture. That's two raptures.

The days of Noah is a picture of the rapture of the Church. Noah is in the ark before the flood.

The days of Lot is a picture of the harvest of the Jews. The very day Lot left Sodom destruction came. When Jesus comes at the 6th seal for a harvest, the day of the Lord will begin. The day of the Lord is one year.

The fig tree has two harvests, FACT. There are two raptures.