It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial

[rebuilder 454]

The harvest of the 12 tribes across the earth in Revelation 14 is the second coming, when all eyes see the coming of the Lord. This is the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal, which is the coming of Jesus seen in Matthew 24, seen here.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Note that the tribulation is OVER. That is the great tribulation. Note that the unbelievers are cast into the wrath of God.

Revelation 14
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Tribulation is not wrath. Tribulation is over at the 6th seal. The seventh seal is the wrath of God which contains the trumpets and vials.

Rev 15 starts with wrath poured out but is in no way the second coming at the end of the 7yr gt.
Explain all this;
Rev16
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

This is all happening well into the wrath part of the 7 yr gt.
Placing the second coming at the end of the 7 yr gt.

 

[rebuilder 454]

These verses are telling us that the WIND was held back from the four winds of the earth, which is symbolic of the Spirit being sent unto all the earth to be in those of faith. Before the four angels (symbolizing universality) would be released to bring harm unto all the earth the WIND (Spirit) must first be sent to seal faithful saints after Pentecost, before they died and Jews who died in faith waiting for Christ to come. Before the Gospel of the Kingdom of God through in the power of the Holy Spirit is sent out unto all nations of the earth, these firstfruits of the Spirit must first also be sealed.

Revelation 9:14 (KJV) Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
Revelation 9:15 (KJV) And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

Revelation 7:1-3 (KJV) And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

After the 144,000 sealed, John speaks of a great multitude that would be the full embodiment of all the saints in heaven, of which the 144,000 are included. They are they which came out of great tribulation of all nations, kindred, and people, and tongues. This is the fullness of the spiritual body of Christ in heaven after the Gospel of the Kingdom of God has been sent unto all the earth.

Revelation 7:9-10 (KJV) After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

Revelation 7:13-14 (KJV) And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Nope
None of that changes the fact that the 144k are a distinct Jewish sub group of the remnant Jews.

 

[rwb]

There was no redemption before the cross right? The first to be redeemed on the earth were those where Jesus said (me paraphrasing) “thy sins are forgiven, go and sin no more”.

Before the cross there was no everlasting spiritual life through the Spirit. Though the Spirit was with them, He would not be permanently in them before Christ returned to the Father and sent Him. (Jo 14:17) Since Christ has come and sent His Spirit to be in us, we belong to His spiritual body through His Spirit in us the moment we are born again. That's when we both know and enter the Kingdom of God, that is not a physical Kingdom upon this earth but is His spiritual Kingdom of God within His faithful saints, to give us everlasting life.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The harvest of the 12 tribes across the earth in Revelation 14 is the second coming, when all eyes see the coming of the Lord. This is the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal, which is the coming of Jesus seen in Matthew 24, seen here.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Note that the tribulation is OVER. That is the great tribulation. Note that the unbelievers are cast into the wrath of God.

Revelation 14
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Tribulation is not wrath. Tribulation is over at the 6th seal. The seventh seal is the wrath of God which contains the trumpets and vials.

No offense but I think you got off by making a major division in the GT as " wrath" vs "trib".
I think that led you into also dividing the Lot and Noah gatherings into two separate gatherings, and placing the white horses in a mid trib setting (postrib/prewrath setting).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

1. Show us one Scripture that teaches that "the feasts of God are a picture of the end times"?
2. Where is "the barley harvest" mentioned in the NT?
3. Where is "the wheat harvest" mentioned in the NT?
4. Where is all this jargon about "on the Feast of Trumpets, the fall harvest feast" in the NT text or in any rapture passage?

None of it is found anywhere in the NT, of course. It's quite clear that the NT authors had a much different understanding of end times prophecies than he does.

 

[IndianaRob]

These verses are telling us that the WIND was held back from the four winds of the earth, which is symbolic of the Spirit being sent unto all the earth to be in those of faith. Before the four angels (symbolizing universality) would be released to bring harm unto all the earth the WIND (Spirit) must first be sent to seal faithful saints after Pentecost, before they died and Jews who died in faith waiting for Christ to come. Before the Gospel of the Kingdom of God through in the power of the Holy Spirit is sent out unto all nations of the earth, these firstfruits of the Spirit must first also be sealed.

Revelation 9:14 (KJV) Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
Revelation 9:15 (KJV) And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

Revelation 7:1-3 (KJV) And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

After the 144,000 sealed, John speaks of a great multitude that would be the full embodiment of all the saints in heaven, of which the 144,000 are included. They are they which came out of great tribulation of all nations, kindred, and people, and tongues. This is the fullness of the spiritual body of Christ in heaven after the Gospel of the Kingdom of God has been sent unto all the earth.

Revelation 7:9-10 (KJV) After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

Revelation 7:13-14 (KJV) And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Nah, that’s some made up stuff. The Holy Spirit doesn’t go out to harm the earth nor do 4 angels ever represent the Holy Spirit.

Revelation 7 and Ezekiel 9 are the exact same stories.

Ezk 9:4 And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.
Ezk 9:5 And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

We all see the obvious.
Your unpacking of the " before the flood gathering", has the world destroyed at the coming.
The Bible has the army of the ac destroyed at the white horse coming.
There is no commerce or normal life at the white horse coming.
So your deal is way way off.

Are you totally unaware that there is no post flood gathering of Noah?????
Not a hint.
No post Sodom gathering of Lot ????
Absolutely NOTHING there.
ZERO.

Do you have any idea of what you're talking about at all? Who said anything about a post flood gathering of Noah? Or post Sodom gathering of Lot? What nonsense. You spend all your time arguing with a strawman.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The Bible says the dead in christ rise first.
You saying the Bible is wrong?

You obviously didn't follow the whole discussion. He was pointing out that The Light believes Christ will come for the dead in Christ in one event. And then some time later in a separate event, He will come for those who are alive and remain. I don't know of anyone else who believes that. It clearly says the dead in Christ and those who are alive and remain will be caught up TOGETHER to meet the Lord in the air at the same time when He comes, but he somehow misses that.

 

[IndianaRob]

Before the cross there was no everlasting spiritual life through the Spirit. Though the Spirit was with them, He would not be permanently in them before Christ returned to the Father and sent Him. (Jo 14:17) Since Christ has come and sent His Spirit to be in us, we belong to His spiritual body through His Spirit in us the moment we are born again. That's when we both know and enter the Kingdom of God, that is not a physical Kingdom upon this earth but is His spiritual Kingdom of God within His faithful saints, to give us everlasting life.

No that’s not right. God is the God of the living not the God of the dead. All believers before and after the cross had/have eternal life.

Before the cross they left this world and went to Abraham’s bosom, after the cross they went to heaven to be with lord as we do after the cross. Either way Gods people have always had eternal life.

 

[WPM]

None of it is found anywhere in the NT, of course. It's quite clear that the NT authors had a much different understanding of end times prophecies than he does.

Exactly bro. They have to make up all these elaborate extra-biblical theories because they enjoy no biblical support for their speculations.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No that’s not right. God is the God of the living not the God of the dead. All believers before and after the cross had/have eternal life.

Before the cross they left this world and went to Abraham’s bosom, after the cross they went to heaven to be with lord as we do after the cross. Either way Gods people have always had eternal life.

But, they don't already have immortal bodies as you believe. That won't happen until the last trumpet which will sound when Jesus returns in the future. You deny that.

 

[IndianaRob]

But, they don't already have immortal bodies as you believe. That won't happen until the last trumpet which will sound when Jesus returns in the future. You deny that.

The first trumpet was the voice of God from Mt Sinai the last trumpet was the voice of God from Mt Sion. The last trumpet is not a literal trumpet. The whole idea of trumpets being the voice of God comes from here:

Num 10:2 Make thee two trumpets of silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest use them for the calling of the assembly, and for the journeying of the camps.

And yes, absolutely those OT saints have their glorified bodies, that’s one of the main reasons Jesus came.

 

[rwb]

No that’s not right. God is the God of the living not the God of the dead. All believers before and after the cross had/have eternal life.

Before the cross they left this world and went to Abraham’s bosom, after the cross they went to heaven to be with lord as we do after the cross. Either way Gods people have always had eternal life.

Of course those faithful of Old had eternal life according to PROMISE. But for the Covenant to be ratified (become valid) there would have to be a death, shedding of blood for remission or pardon of sin. The blood of goats and calves only cleansed outwardly, but could not obtain eternal redemption for those of Old.

Hebrews 9:12-17 (KJV) Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Hebrews 9:22-28 (KJV) And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It is like you defend the notion of harvest as gibberish.

No, your way of communicating is gibberish. Everyone can see that. You're completely incoherent when you post. You give no explanation and no clear scriptural support for anything you say.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The first trumpet was the voice of God from Mt Sinai the last trumpet was the voice of God from Mt Sion. The last trumpet is not a literal trumpet. The whole idea of trumpets being the voice of God comes from here:

Num 10:2 Make thee two trumpets of silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest use them for the calling of the assembly, and for the journeying of the camps.

And yes, absolutely those OT saints have their glorified bodies, that’s one of the main reasons Jesus came.

Nope. Scripture never teaches that. Paul very clearly taught that we ALL will be changed to have immortal, glorified bodies at the last trumpet, which will sound when the dead in Christ are raised when Jesus returns in the future (1 Cor 15:22-23;51-52). You have to resort to using obscure scripture in the OT to support your view since you know you can't support it with any NT scripture.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Sad your bad attitude.
So hateful
I feel for you.

You don't like when people call out your nonsense. It hurts your feelings. Too bad. Stop the nonsense. Communicate like an adult if you want to be taken seriously here. You're constantly acting as if everyone else is wrong, but you do nothing to prove it. That's a bad attitude on your part. Your confidence in your view is obviously misplaced since you can't support it with scripture. I feel bad for you that you are so delusional.

 

[rwb]

Nah, that’s some made up stuff. The Holy Spirit doesn’t go out to harm the earth nor do 4 angels ever represent the Holy Spirit.

I never said the Holy Spirit brings harm! Nor did I confuse Him with the four angels.

 

[IndianaRob]

Of course those faithful of Old had eternal life according to PROMISE. But for the Covenant to be ratified (become valid) there would have to be a death, shedding of blood for remission or pardon of sin. The blood of goats and calves only cleansed outwardly, but could not obtain eternal redemption for those of Old.

Hebrews 9:12-17 (KJV) Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Hebrews 9:22-28 (KJV) And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

The only difference between an Old Testament Christian and a New Testament Christian was the label assigned to the believer, whether they looked toward the cross or back at the cross and would they have direct access to heaven or would they have to go to Abraham’s bosom.

In the Old Testament believers in Christ were called the tabernacle of David, in the New Testament were called the body of Christ.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I didn't realize this was such a contested issue till now.

I would hope we don't suffer the great tribulation.
However, I can't agree a pretribulation rapture of the church of God isn't possible.

Can you support that view with scripture? So far, I have not seen any pretrib come anywhere near supporting that view with scripture. You're welcome to try.

God's will is done on earth as it is in Heaven.

I wouldn't dare say there is something he would never do at the end of this world.

He is merciful after all. What better opportunity to show mercy than to free us from the Beast and its agenda.

Many Christians have suffered persecution for the past almost 2,000 years, so why would that suddenly end before Jesus returns at the end of the age?

 

[IndianaRob]

Nope. Scripture never teaches that. Paul very clearly taught that we ALL will be changed to have immortal, glorified bodies at the last trumpet, which will sound when the dead in Christ are raised when Jesus returns in the future (1 Cor 15:22-23;51-52). You have to resort to using obscure scripture in the OT to support your view since you know you can't support it with any NT scripture.

We’ll just keep on listening out for that trumpet. You for some reason can’t see spiritual things.