It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial

[Spiritual Israelite]

Are you incapable of seeing and understanding that what Paul Prophesied in 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 is for after the Millennium?

LOL! Are you incapable of remembering that you have told me this many times before and I have agreed every time? LOL! What is your excuse for your ignorance? Of course that occurs after the thousand years. How can you not know I believe that? Why do you try to debate Amils when you don't even understand what we believe? That makes no sense. I believe that 1 Cor 15:50-56 will be fulfilled when Christ returns AFTER the thousand years. As I've told you many times. Hello? Please wake up.

Only then is Death no more, Revelation 21:4

Right. Once Jesus comes and destroys His enemies no one will die anymore after that.

Of course you have the weird belief of AMill.

It's weird to you only because you obviously don't even understand it. You apparently thought that I believe 1 Cor 15:50-56 is fulfilled before the thousand years. No, that is what Premils believe. All premils except for you, anyway. You have a doctrine all to yourself. You think you're special and that God has revealed truth only to you. You have to be very arrogant and narcissistic to believe such a thing.

So; the truth of where Pauls Prophecy fits, is another nail in the coffin of the AMill theory.

LOL. You deny the TRUTH of what Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 15:22-23. You must remove those verses from your Bible. He says there that ALL who are in Christ will be resurrected AT THE SAME TIME. And you deny this because it doesn't fit your weird theory that you have all to yourself. You interpret Revelation 20 in isolation and then force many other scriptures to fit your false interpretation of Revelation 20. That is a ridiculous approach to interpreting scripture.

Proved by Rev 20:4-6, where it is clearly stated that only those martyrs killed during the 3 1/2 year period of 'beast' world control, will be resurrected when Jesus Returns.

It clearly doesn't mean that because that would contradict what Paul clearly stated in 1 Corinthians 15:22-23. Your doctrine pits scripture against itself. Your doctrine causes contradictions and forces you to make scripture like 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 say what you want it to say.

in Christ all shall be made alive.
This WILL happen, as Paul says: In their correct order - Christ the firstfruit, then the GT martyrs, then, after the thousand years; at the GWT Judgment;

LOL! Where does Paul say this? NOWHERE! You are blatantly changing the text of 1 Cor 15 to say what you want it to say. No, the order he gives is Christ first and then next in order are those who are His at His second coming. That's it. Don't try to change it! Accept it! Paul knew what he was talking about. You should interpret Revelation 20 accordingly. You should have clear, straightforward scripture like 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 as part of the foundation of your doctrine that you use to interpret scripture contained in highly symbolic books like Revelation. But, you do it the other way around and end up having to change many scriptures to make them fit your false interpretation of Revelation 20.

 

[David in NJ]

Are you incapable of seeing and understanding that what Paul Prophesied in 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 is for after the Millennium? Only then is Death no more, Revelation 21:4
Of course you have the weird belief of AMill. So; the truth of where Pauls Prophecy fits, is another nail in the coffin of the AMill theory.
Proved by Rev 20:4-6, where it is clearly stated that only those martyrs killed during the 3 1/2 year period of 'beast' world control, will be resurrected when Jesus Returns.

in Christ all shall be made alive.
This WILL happen, as Paul says: In their correct order - Christ the firstfruit, then the GT martyrs, then, after the thousand years; at the GWT Judgment; All those who kept their faith until death, including from the Patriarchs, to Moses, David, Stephen, Billy Graham, etc, ALL whose Names are Written in the Book of Life, will receive immortality and will go with God into Eternity.

How can it possibly be AFTER the Millennium when it CLEARLY states that we are Transformed into Immortality at His Coming!!!
His Second Coming is BEFORE the Millennium.

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

How can it possibly be AFTER the Millennium when it CLEARLY states that we are Transformed into Immortality at His Coming!!!

Well, naturally, Amils believe this since we believe His second coming is after the thousand years. But, he is a premil (sees the thousand years as occurring after His second coming), so his view makes no sense. It's like he's trying to mix premil and amil together, but that doesn't work. He has to be the only premil who sees 1 Cor 15:50-56 as being fulfilled after the thousand years. I don't know how anyone can deny that 1 Cor 15:50-56 will be fulfilled at Christ's second coming. But, he thinks it will be fulfilled 1,000+ years after His second coming. So, he has a doctrine all to himself.

 

[MA2444]

Well, naturally, Amils believe this since we believe His second coming is after the thousand years. But, he is a premil (sees the thousand years as occurring after His second coming), so his view makes no sense. It's like he's trying to mix premil and amil together, but that doesn't work. He has to be the only premil who sees 1 Cor 15:50-56 as being fulfilled after the thousand years. I don't know how anyone can deny that 1 Cor 15:50-56 will be fulfilled at Christ's second coming. But, he thinks it will be fulfilled 1,000+ years after His second coming. So, he has a doctrine all to himself.

How can He rule in Jerusalem from the seat of David's throne if He isnt even here?

 

[David in NJ]

Well, naturally, Amils believe this since we believe His second coming is after the thousand years. But, he is a premil (sees the thousand years as occurring after His second coming), so his view makes no sense. It's like he's trying to mix premil and amil together, but that doesn't work. He has to be the only premil who sees 1 Cor 15:50-56 as being fulfilled after the thousand years. I don't know how anyone can deny that 1 Cor 15:50-56 will be fulfilled at Christ's second coming. But, he thinks it will be fulfilled 1,000+ years after His second coming. So, he has a doctrine all to himself.

We(you and me) are SAVED by the Blood of Christ - Amen

You and i are Brothers in Christ and can NEVER be separated from our LORD Jesus Christ - Amen

Our LORD's Commandment to us is this: John 13:34
"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

i am not a amil christian and i am not a pre-mil christian.

i am a Blood Washed Born-Again Holy Spirit filled follower of Christ

If your desire is to give me a label(no harm) for identification of my beliefs, then this is it = 'i am a Matthew 4:4 Believer'

You can call me MAT44 for easy identification purposes.

SHALOM

 

[MA2444]

You can call me MAT44 for easy identification purposes.

Lol! I'm MA2444 !!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

How can He rule in Jerusalem from the seat of David's throne if He isnt even here?

Why are you taking that so literally? How could He possibly literally sit on David's throne in the future? Surely, it has decayed and doesn't exist anymore. We need to allow the NT to interpret the OT for us. The NT reveals things that are hidden or not clear in the OT. I accept Peter's explanation of how Jesus took His place on David's throne.

Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Peter indicated here that the way in which God fulfilled His promise to David to "raise up Christ to sit on his throne" was by way of "the resurrection of Christ". Peter equated the raising up of Christ from the dead with the raising up of Christ to sit on David's throne. He was placed "the right hand of God exalted" as "both Lord and Christ". As King. Jesus Himself, after His resurrection, said "all power is given unto me in heaven and in earth". Paul said regarding Jesus after His resurrection that God the Father placed Him "at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named" and "put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church" (Eph 1:19-22).

The way in which Jesus was made King of kings and Lord of lords was not in the way people expected because of carnal thinking. His kingdom did not come with observation (Luke 17:20) and is not of this world. The kingdom of God that He reigns over "is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit" (Romans 14:17). God does not do things the way carnal men expect Him to, He does it the way He wants to do it and how He planned to do it long ago by bringing a spiritual kingdom to the world through His Son that His Son reigns over. The kingdom that we all are in right now.

Colossians 1:12 and giving joyful thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of his holy people in the kingdom of light. 13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,

 

[David in NJ]

Lol! I'm MA2444 !!

Mat 24:44 - Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

Is this your GO-TO Blessed Scripture of LOVE in your heart for Christ and the Brethren?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

We(you and me) are SAVED by the Blood of Christ - Amen

You and i are Brothers in Christ and can NEVER be separated from our LORD Jesus Christ - Amen

Our LORD's Commandment to us is this: John 13:34
"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

i am not a amil christian and i am not a pre-mil christian.

i am a Blood Washed Born-Again Holy Spirit filled follower of Christ

If your desire is to give me a label(no harm) for identification of my beliefs, then this is it = 'i am a Matthew 4:4 Believer'

You can call me MAT44 for easy identification purposes.

SHALOM

Right. We are all Christians first and foremost. These other labels just help identify what we believe about certain things.

Since I believe amil is true, then I argue for the truth. That's who I am. Jesus reigns now and I will always promote the doctrine that puts an emphasis on His current kingship and authority. But, I never say that one's interpretation of Revelation 20 is a deciding factor in whether or not someone is a Christian and a brother or sister in Christ. I have seen a few premils do this and it's just sad to see. They add a condition to salvation that can be found nowhere in scripture.

 

[MA2444]

Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

WHere does it say that He rules in the Millenium from heaven and not from Jerusalem?

 

[MA2444]

Mat 24:44 - Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

Is this your GO-TO Blessed Scripture of LOVE in your heart for Christ and the Brethren?

It sure is!

 

[Gottservant]

One man's rapture, is another man's being caught up (and vice versa)

 

[David in NJ]

One man's rapture, is another man's being caught up (and vice versa)

What about one man's 'catch-up'?

Would that be another man's 'ketch-up'?

 

[Keraz]

It clearly doesn't mean that because that would contradict what Paul clearly stated in 1 Corinthians 15:22-23.

How can it possibly be AFTER the Millennium when it CLEARLY states that we are Transformed into Immortality at His Coming!!!
His Second Coming is BEFORE the Millennium.

This is the issue: WHEN will all be made alive. That is; will receive immortality?
First is Christ, then those who are in Christ at His coming. Thinking that ALL will be immortalized at His Return, is wrong as we are clearly told that only the GT martyrs are raised back to life at that time. Revelation 20:4

So, for all who hold to the belief of a general resurrection of the Christian dead at the glorious Return, carry on in your fixed and intransigent view, but it is a direct contradiction of scripture, is illogical and simply does not fit with the sequence of events as given in Revelation. Also as described in Daniel 7:9-10, a parenthetical Prophecy, paralleled by Revelation 20:11-15

The AMill theory is debunked by 1 Cor 15:24, Jesus Returns as King over the world, as many Prophesies describe, He will reign for a thousand years; then hand the Kingdom to the Father God,

 

[rebuilder 454]

BINGO

Funny how you and him scoff st Noah being over a mile into the sky ( heavens) and up there DURING THE TRIB ON EARTH , then returning postrib back to earth.

How vivid Jesus depicted the pretrib rapture.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You completely ignore what Jesus indicated will happen to those who are left. To think that those who are left will return to normal life is beyond ludicrous. Just look at what Jesus actually taught will happen to those who are left behind.

He starts out by comparing what will happen on the day of His coming to what happened on the day Noah entered the ark and the day Lot went out of Sodom.

Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

He specifically pointed out how the flood "destroyed them all" and how the fire that came down on Sodom "destroyed them all" and then said "Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.". That means He was saying that He will destroy them all (all unbelievers) when He comes just as the flood "destroyed them all" and the fire on Sodom "destroyed them all".

Then He tells people to remember what happened to Lot's wife as an example of what will happen to those who are too attached to their lives in this world on the day He returns.

Luke 17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. 32 Remember Lot's wife. 33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

Anyone who cares more about their temporary lives on this earth than about being willing to sacrifice their lives for God will be killed when Jesus comes.

Then Jesus said this:

Luke 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. 35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

So, keeping in mind what He had just previously said it shouldn't be hard to see that the ones taken will be taken up to meet the Lord in the air and the ones left behind will be killed just as Noah and Lot and their families were brought to safety in both of those scenarios while everyone else was killed in both scenarios.

Under this view of yours half the world is saved, half lost.
And you defend it.

 

[rebuilder 454]

LOL. This is ridiculous. Noah did not return from the heavens. You just make things up. You also never acknowledge what happened to all unbelievers after Noah was in the ark. They were all killed without exception. Jesus said "so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." (Matthew 24:39). You don't acknowledge the clear teaching that those who are left behind are all killed.


Everyone believes this. You are really talking pre-wrath and post-wrath here. No one tries to say that we will be raptured after the wrath that will come down when Jesus returns and the rapture occurs. But, what you are not acknowledging is that none of them left behind will survive His wrath. On the same day that Noah entered the ark, the flood came and destroyed all unbelievers who were left out of the ark. On the same day that Lot went out of Sodom, the fire came down and destroyed all who were left behind in Sodom. Jesus said "Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed." (Luke 17:30).


This is complete nonsense. You are taking about pre-wrath and post-wrath. Everyone is pre-wrath in terms of being caught up before the wrath comes down on the earth when the rapture occurs. How do you define "the tribulation"? How long does it last? How many unbelievers survive it? You need to address these questions instead of being so vague all the time. We're all pre-wrath in the sense that you are talking about it.

Nope.
You made up pre wrath / postrib rapture.
There is zero commerce for any believer postrib/ prewrath.
Some vast stretching is needed for that erroneous belief.
The fact all are killed refusing the mark makes your entire deal impossible.
Not most.
Nor some.
The Bible says ALL.
ALL DIE refusing the mark.
The Bible says no commerce without the mark.
You deny that truth.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You completely ignore what Jesus indicated will happen to those who are left. To think that those who are left will return to normal life is beyond ludicrous. Just look at what Jesus actually taught will happen to those who are left behind.

He starts out by comparing what will happen on the day of His coming to what happened on the day Noah entered the ark and the day Lot went out of Sodom.

Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

He specifically pointed out how the flood "destroyed them all" and how the fire that came down on Sodom "destroyed them all" and then said "Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.". That means He was saying that He will destroy them all (all unbelievers) when He comes just as the flood "destroyed them all" and the fire on Sodom "destroyed them all".

Then He tells people to remember what happened to Lot's wife as an example of what will happen to those who are too attached to their lives in this world on the day He returns.

Luke 17:31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. 32 Remember Lot's wife. 33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

Anyone who cares more about their temporary lives on this earth than about being willing to sacrifice their lives for God will be killed when Jesus comes.

Then Jesus said this:

Luke 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. 35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

So, keeping in mind what He had just previously said it shouldn't be hard to see that the ones taken will be taken up to meet the Lord in the air and the ones left behind will be killed just as Noah and Lot and their families were brought to safety in both of those scenarios while everyone else was killed in both scenarios.

Of course those left behind are killed.
That group CAN NOT be unsaved.
It can ONLY BE BELIEVERS, because half OF A GROUP are taken / half OF THAT GROUP left behind.
How absurd to try and make that group the world's population????
It can NEVER FIT.
And yet you keep on believing half the world is saved, half unsaved??????
Not now
Not in the past
Not ever in the future.
It can not possibly be

Not remotely possible.
Yet your DOCTRINE DEMANDS IT.
SMH

 

[rebuilder 454]

LOL! Are you incapable of remembering that you have told me this many times before and I have agreed every time? LOL! What is your excuse for your ignorance? Of course that occurs after the thousand years. How can you not know I believe that? Why do you try to debate Amils when you don't even understand what we believe? That makes no sense. I believe that 1 Cor 15:50-56 will be fulfilled when Christ returns AFTER the thousand years. As I've told you many times. Hello? Please wake up.


Right. Once Jesus comes and destroys His enemies no one will die anymore after that.


It's weird to you only because you obviously don't even understand it. You apparently thought that I believe 1 Cor 15:50-56 is fulfilled before the thousand years. No, that is what Premils believe. All premils except for you, anyway. You have a doctrine all to yourself. You think you're special and that God has revealed truth only to you. You have to be very arrogant and narcissistic to believe such a thing.


LOL. You deny the TRUTH of what Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 15:22-23. You must remove those verses from your Bible. He says there that ALL who are in Christ will be resurrected AT THE SAME TIME. And you deny this because it doesn't fit your weird theory that you have all to yourself. You interpret Revelation 20 in isolation and then force many other scriptures to fit your false interpretation of Revelation 20. That is a ridiculous approach to interpreting scripture.


It clearly doesn't mean that because that would contradict what Paul clearly stated in 1 Corinthians 15:22-23. Your doctrine pits scripture against itself. Your doctrine causes contradictions and forces you to make scripture like 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 say what you want it to say.


LOL! Where does Paul say this? NOWHERE! You are blatantly changing the text of 1 Cor 15 to say what you want it to say. No, the order he gives is Christ first and then next in order are those who are His at His second coming. That's it. Don't try to change it! Accept it! Paul knew what he was talking about. You should interpret Revelation 20 accordingly. You should have clear, straightforward scripture like 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 as part of the foundation of your doctrine that you use to interpret scripture contained in highly symbolic books like Revelation. But, you do it the other way around and end up having to change many scriptures to make them fit your false interpretation of Revelation 20.

QUOTE;
"Right. Once Jesus comes and destroys His enemies no one will die anymore after that"

Remember, you are saying half the planet population is destroyed.
But it gets worse, because you are saying , at that point, Jesus kills all the population.
( As you assured us that the ones left behind are earth's unsaved population)

Nope, Nope, Nope

 

[rebuilder 454]

Only pretrib rapture fits.