It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial

[IndianaRob]

#1 - The OT Prophets said HE will Return to SAVE them

#2 - JESUS said HE will Return and SAVE them

#3 - the Apostle Paul said HE will Return and SAVE them

I agree and that happened at the cross. The wheat was separated from the tares. The wheat came into the kingdom and the tares were BOUND at the cross and then BURNED in 70 AD.

 

[grafted branch]

I believe the timing coincides with the birth of Jesus. The "little season" depicting the time "a thousand two hundred and threescore days" (Rev 12:6) when the woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God (Church?). Btw I don't view the times written in the Revelation to be literal times, I believe all the times fall within the symbolic time "a thousand years".

Revelation 12 has a repeating pattern that adds a layer of complexity to it. In case you’re not familiar here is a summary of the pattern …

Vs 4 Stars of heaven cast to earth
Vs 4 devour her child
Vs 6 woman fled into wilderness
Vs 7 war in heaven between dragon and Michael

Vs 9 Dragon cast out of heaven to the earth
Vs 13 persecuted the woman
Vs 14 woman fled into wilderness
Vs 17 dragon makes war

The pattern is cast out, persecution, fleeing, and war.

I think most people place the initial fleeing in verse 6 as the flight of Mary and Joseph to Egypt. Some people then extrapolate that by putting a repeating pattern between Mary’s flight and the AOD fleeing; saying this …

Matthew 24:16 let them in Judea flee. Matthew 2:1 Jesus is born Bethlehem of Judea.

Matthew 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house. Matthew 2:13 the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise. Joseph could’ve been sleeping on the housetop when he had the angel appear to him in the dream.

Matthew 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. The word “his” can be either male or female. Matthew 2:13 and take the young child and his mother. Mary could’ve been gleaning in a field at evening time, with the baby Jesus being with either Joseph or Mary.

Matthew 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! Mary was no longer pregnant but had just recently given birth and was nursing when they fled to Egypt, which has mountains to which they could’ve fled to.



I haven’t got all this figured out but I do think the Revelation 12 pattern is important and it could be showing that Mary’s flight and the AOD’s flight are interlinked. If this is correct and the AOD happened in 70AD then most of Revelation 12 is already fulfilled. Maybe the Revelation 12 pattern can be applied to the Church also, I don’t know.

 

[MA2444]

Just a reminder that God was finished with the people of Israel at the cross.

Romans 11:1-2
1 I ask, then, has God rejected his own people, the nation of Israel? Of course not! I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham and a member of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 No, God has not rejected his own people, whom he chose from the very beginning. Do you realize what the Scriptures say about this? Elijah the prophet complained to God about the people of Israel and said,.../NLT

Paul didnt think that God gave up on His people. WHy would He? He said He will never leave us or forsake us. It is written that He is the God that does not change. So you must be wrong about that brother.

I have no idea how “summer is nigh” got twisted into the rebirth of a nation but I have an idea the enemies of the gospel were behind it.

I dont think I can explain it but it has to be so. He doesn't change so He did not abandon Israel. Paul knew this better than anyone! Because he is an Israelite too.

 

[grafted branch]

We know without a doubt who two of the four witnesses are because Revelation tells us who the "two candlesticks" represent. John the Baptist, a disciple of Christ would certainly be counted as one of the fellow servants among Jews of faith.

Revelation 1:20 (KJV) The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Revelation 11:3-4 (KJV) And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

I find it interesting that the two candlesticks prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days. That's the same amount of time given in Rev 12 when the woman (Israel of Old) after the birth of Christ and the war that took place in heaven fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God.

Revelation 12:5-6 (KJV) And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

I definitely see the connection between the candlesticks representing the church and as part of the two witnesses. To tell you the truth, I’m not confident enough on any of the interpretations to debate this one way or the other, I’m still studying some of these things.

 

[Douggg]

Why did you use 1967 instead of 1948? And why not +80

It may turn out to be 80, as Psalms 90 says if by strength, our years be 80.

Right now though it looks like Gog/Magog (which immediately precedes the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9) does not look to be far away.

2037 would means that Gog/Magog will have to take place before the end of 2030.

 

[Marty fox]

Still after Paul wrote his letters.

The bible tells us that Paul was taken up to heaven and shown many things

Do you really think that God couldn’t tell other people besides John His plan? More happened than what is in the bible the bible is just what we need to know Paul didn’t even have the bible to read

 

[rwb]

Revelation 12 has a repeating pattern that adds a layer of complexity to it. In case you’re not familiar here is a summary of the pattern …

Vs 4 Stars of heaven cast to earth
Vs 4 devour her child
Vs 6 woman fled into wilderness
Vs 7 war in heaven between dragon and Michael

Vs 9 Dragon cast out of heaven to the earth
Vs 13 persecuted the woman
Vs 14 woman fled into wilderness
Vs 17 dragon makes war

The pattern is cast out, persecution, fleeing, and war.

I think most people place the initial fleeing in verse 6 as the flight of Mary and Joseph to Egypt. Some people then extrapolate that by putting a repeating pattern between Mary’s flight and the AOD fleeing; saying this …

Matthew 24:16 let them in Judea flee. Matthew 2:1 Jesus is born Bethlehem of Judea.

Matthew 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house. Matthew 2:13 the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise. Joseph could’ve been sleeping on the housetop when he had the angel appear to him in the dream.

Matthew 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. The word “his” can be either male or female. Matthew 2:13 and take the young child and his mother. Mary could’ve been gleaning in a field at evening time, with the baby Jesus being with either Joseph or Mary.

Matthew 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! Mary was no longer pregnant but had just recently given birth and was nursing when they fled to Egypt, which has mountains to which they could’ve fled to.



I haven’t got all this figured out but I do think the Revelation 12 pattern is important and it could be showing that Mary’s flight and the AOD’s flight are interlinked. If this is correct and the AOD happened in 70AD then most of Revelation 12 is already fulfilled. Maybe the Revelation 12 pattern can be applied to the Church also, I don’t know.

I believe that Rev 12 began to be fulfilled when Christ was born. That was when Satan and his angels were cast out of heaven and bound to the earth. The prophecy is on-going from that time, because the woman, symbolizing the Church is still being persecuted by the dragon (Satan) and his demonic hosts. But throughout Her persecution we find Her being nourished by God. This persecution from Satan, without ability to completely destroy the Church will continue to the very end of time when the seventh trumpet shall begin to sound.

 

[David in NJ]

Revelation 12 has a repeating pattern that adds a layer of complexity to it. In case you’re not familiar here is a summary of the pattern …

Vs 4 Stars of heaven cast to earth
Vs 4 devour her child
Vs 6 woman fled into wilderness
Vs 7 war in heaven between dragon and Michael

Vs 9 Dragon cast out of heaven to the earth
Vs 13 persecuted the woman
Vs 14 woman fled into wilderness
Vs 17 dragon makes war

The pattern is cast out, persecution, fleeing, and war.

I think most people place the initial fleeing in verse 6 as the flight of Mary and Joseph to Egypt. Some people then extrapolate that by putting a repeating pattern between Mary’s flight and the AOD fleeing; saying this …

Matthew 24:16 let them in Judea flee. Matthew 2:1 Jesus is born Bethlehem of Judea.

Matthew 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house. Matthew 2:13 the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise. Joseph could’ve been sleeping on the housetop when he had the angel appear to him in the dream.

Matthew 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. The word “his” can be either male or female. Matthew 2:13 and take the young child and his mother. Mary could’ve been gleaning in a field at evening time, with the baby Jesus being with either Joseph or Mary.

Matthew 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! Mary was no longer pregnant but had just recently given birth and was nursing when they fled to Egypt, which has mountains to which they could’ve fled to.



I haven’t got all this figured out but I do think the Revelation 12 pattern is important and it could be showing that Mary’s flight and the AOD’s flight are interlinked. If this is correct and the AOD happened in 70AD then most of Revelation 12 is already fulfilled. Maybe the Revelation 12 pattern can be applied to the Church also, I don’t know.

If most of Revelation is fulfilled(let's say it is) what is remaining that must be fulfilled?

 

[grafted branch]

That was when Satan and his angels were cast out of heaven and bound to the earth.

Do you think Satan being bound to the earth can be linked to Satan being bound for the millennium?

 

[grafted branch]

If most of Revelation is fulfilled(let's say it is) what is remaining that must be fulfilled?

I think there is a final coming of Christ yet to be fulfilled.

I do see much of Revelation fulfilled on the Jews but that’s not to say similar things can’t happen to us or the Church in the future.

Look at Nebuchadnezzar and Babylon, it was a one world government with a single leader that brought the Jews into captivity. I don’t think we can rule out a situation where something similar takes place in the future, but once something is fulfilled it doesn’t mean there has to be a similar future fulfillment either.

 

[David in NJ]

I think there is a final coming of Christ yet to be fulfilled.

I do see much of Revelation fulfilled on the Jews but that’s not to say similar things can’t happen to us or the Church in the future.

Look at Nebuchadnezzar and Babylon, it was a one world government with a single leader that brought the Jews into captivity. I don’t think we can rule out a situation where something similar takes place in the future, but once something is fulfilled it doesn’t mean there has to be a similar future fulfillment either.

WOW

First time on here where i heard someone allowing scripture to EXPAND beyond our limited knowledge base!

 

[Douggg]

And the Pretrib manipulation continues. Every time their theory is exposed and destroyed they move the goal posts. It was a 40 years generation from 1948, which came to 1988. That came and went. They then changed it to 1967. It was a 40 years generation from 1967, which came to 2007. That came and went. They then changed it to 70 years from 1948 - which came to 2018. That came and went. Now you have changed it to 70 years from 1967, which comes to 2037.

Talk about gerrymandering Scripture!

The parable of the fig tree generation is not a Pretib manifestation.

There have been certainly been errors made as to where the goal posts are. 1844 the great disappointment for SDA and Millerites.

88 reasons for the rapture in1988 was a pamphlet put out by Edar Whisenant.

1948+70=2018. Back in 2011 Jack Van Impe was speculating that King Juan Carlos was the Antichrist, as Spain was the 11th nation to join the EU. The failure was two part... 1. 1948 was not the base year. 2. The Antichrist must be Jew.

1948+80 = 2028, which would have meant the 7 years would have to start in 2021. Didn't happen.

All of the possible calculations based on 1948 have expired. So 1948 was not the base year.

1967 when the Jews (Daniel's people) regained control of Jerusalem is the base year. The 70 weeks of Daniel 9:24 are determined upon Daniel's people and Jerusalem. The goal posts are in sight.

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

 

[The Light]

It may turn out to be 80, as Psalms 90 says if by strength, our years be 80.

Right now though it looks like Gog/Magog (which immediately precedes the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9) does not look to be far away.

2037 would means that Gog/Magog will have to take place before the end of 2030.

Gog Magog is more than 1000 years away.

Revelation 20
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

 

[Douggg]

I seen that too, lol.

But I think it all depeds who you talk to. How long is a generation, 80 years? 90? 70? I even heard someone say once that it's 20 or 30, when your kids have children so to speak I guess.

So it's something like that, lol

May 14th 1948?

Matthew 24:31-33
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors..../KJV

Does anyone remember when Jews al over the world started returning to their homeland back in the day? I was a kid but I remember hearing about it. The Lord's elect (His people) started returning to Israel after there not being an Israel for a couple thousand years! And you know what happened? Israel sprouted leaves as a nation.

So when you see all these happening in the world, you know the time is getting close. That generation which was alive in 1948 has not passed away, it's just later in the summer now for them, and us.

That's how I learned it.

`1948 was the year that the Ezekiel 37 verses the reuniting of the former northern and southern kingdoms back into one nation again was fulfilled.

But 1948 year is not the base year for the parable of the fig tree generation. Even with 80 years for a generation.

1948 +80 = 2028, meaning the 7 year 70th week would have to begun back in 2021. Didn't happen.

Please read my post #372, the last couple of sentences. 1967 is the base year.

 

[Douggg]

Gog Magog is more than 1000 years away.

Revelation 20
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

In Ezekiel 39:9, 7 years follow Gog/Magog.

In Revelation 20, what follows Gog and Magog ? 7 years ? no.

 

[MA2444]

`1948 was the year that the Ezekiel 37 verses the reuniting of the former northern and southern kingdoms back into one nation again was fulfilled.

But 1948 year is not the base year for the parable of the fig tree generation. Even with 80 years for a generation.

1948 +80 = 2028, meaning the 7 year 70th week would have to begun back in 2021. Didn't happen.

Please read my post #372, the last couple of sentences. 1967 is the base year.

If 80 years is a generation?

That could be I suppose. That was a pretty significant event in 1967 when they took back Jerusalem.

And God was with them! 6 day war!!

 

[WPM]

The parable of the fig tree generation is not a Pretib manifestation.

There have been certainly been errors made as to where the goal posts are. 1844 the great disappointment for SDA and Millerites.

88 reasons for the rapture in1988 was a pamphlet put out by Edar Whisenant.

1948+70=2018. Back in 2011 Jack Van Impe was speculating that King Juan Carlos was the Antichrist, as Spain was the 11th nation to join the EU. The failure was two part... 1. 1948 was not the base year. 2. The Antichrist must be Jew.

1948+80 = 2028, which would have meant the 7 years would have to start in 2021. Didn't happen.

All of the possible calculations based on 1948 have expired. So 1948 was not the base year.

1967 when the Jews (Daniel's people) regained control of Jerusalem is the base year. The 70 weeks of Daniel 9:24 are determined upon Daniel's people and Jerusalem. The goal posts are in sight.

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

You are manipulating Scripture to support your false teaching. You are making the Bible out to be a joke. No one knows when the time is. Stop doing that! Many Pretribbers are in their graves with their false claims who did what you are doing.

 

[The Light]

Amo 8:1 Thus hath the Lord GOD shewed unto me: and behold a basket of summer fruit.

Amo 8:2 And he said, Amos, what seest thou? And I said, A basket of summer fruit. Then said the LORD unto me, The end is come upon my people of Israel; I will not again pass by them any more.

You are reading these verses incorrectly.

Amos was shown a basket of summer fruit. The end is come upon my people of Israel. I will not again pass by them anymore.

The Lord will NOT pass by them anymore.

It is the time of the end.........the 70th week of Daniel when the great tribulation will be upon Israel. AT THIS TIME, the Lord will NOT again pass by Israel.

Whoever told you the Lord is done with Israel has made an error.

When Jesus said “summer is nigh” he was warning the Jews that their END was nigh.

Matthew 24

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

The fig tree has two harvests. The Lord is saying summer is near, He is at the door.

The Gentiles are the summer harvest. What do the Jews say?

Jeremiah 8
20 The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

After the summer harvest the Lord will save Israel. That basket of summer FRUIT represents the 1st fruits of the fall fruit harvest. They are the 144,000 firstfruits seen in Rev 14.

I have no idea how “summer is nigh” got twisted into the rebirth of a nation but I have an idea the enemies of the gospel were behind it.

It didn't. Summer is nigh is telling you..........be ready......He is coming first in the summer. He will come in the spring for the dead in Christ. He will return for the alive that remain in the summer. He will come again at the fall fruit harvest at the last trump for the twelve tribes across the earth, at the 6th seal.

 

[David in NJ]

@Douggg says the Rapture is verse 17: "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Thank You for the accurate and TRUE scripture verse that proclaims the Coming Rapture of the "alive and remaining Saints".

2nd Question: In what Order does the "word of the LORD" place this in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18?

Clarification to this 2nd question:
the verse you CORRECTLY/TRUTH posted here is verse 17
"By the word of the LORD", is this placed before or AFTER the resurrection as declared in verse 16?

Is it:
a.) Before
b.) After

Thank you @Douggg for responding

 

[David in NJ]

You are reading these verses incorrectly.

Amos was shown a basket of summer fruit. The end is come upon my people of Israel. I will not again pass by them anymore.

The Lord will NOT pass by them anymore.

It is the time of the end.........the 70th week of Daniel when the great tribulation will be upon Israel. AT THIS TIME, the Lord will NOT again pass by Israel.

Whoever told you the Lord is done with Israel has made an error.



Matthew 24

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

The fig tree has two harvests. The Lord is saying summer is near, He is at the door.

The Gentiles are the summer harvest. What do the Jews say?

Jeremiah 8
20 The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

After the summer harvest the Lord will save Israel. That basket of summer FRUIT represents the 1st fruits of the fall fruit harvest. They are the 144,000 firstfruits seen in Rev 14.


It didn't. Summer is nigh is telling you..........be ready......He is coming first in the summer. He will come in the spring for the dead in Christ. He will return for the alive that remain in the summer. He will come again at the fall fruit harvest at the last trump for the twelve tribes across the earth, at the 6th seal.

When did the LORD Jesus Christ say: "the Gentiles are the summer harvest" ???

From the Gospel only thank you!



@MA2444 you are invited to this question as i know you desire understanding as much as i do.