It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial

[Douggg]

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

So, according to your view, this is apparently talking about the burning up and dissolving of the peace and safety feeling that the world has? Is that correct? And it's talking about the dissolving of the peace and safety feeling of the heavens and the elements as well?

On my time line chart you will see that the day of the Lord has a beginning and continues forever. The destruction of this present earth will take place right before the GWT judgment on the time line chart. Both you and @WPM need to develop your own time line charts, showing your rapture timing in relationship to the other time of the end events.

 

[WPM]

it does not matter, a gap is a gap.

and I proved there is a gap in the 70 weeks.. so i already showed you that also. I just showed you a different example of how prophecy can be broken up. and not all happen at the same time..

But you will only see what you want to see

You never proved anything, apart from your own ignorance. Show where there is a gap!

Messiah did not begin His earthly ministry with his triumphant ride into Jerusalem. He began it at His baptism 3 1/2 years earlier. This is how erroneous, partial and unobjective Pretrib theology is. It cannot be taken serious.

 

[Douggg]

No. Quote Scripture. This is a Bible forum not an art class.

Also you and @Spiritual Israelite need to make a time-line chart showing how the events in Revelation fit together with one another for the time frames of...

Revelation 11:2 42 months
Revelation 11:3 1260 days
Revelation 11:9 3 1/2 days
Revelation 12:6 1260 days
Revelation 12:14 a time/times/half time
Revelation 13:5 42 months

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

On my time line chart you will see that the day of the Lord has a beginning and continues forever.

LOL. Show me that in scripture. Where does scripture teach that? Nowhere. I don't care about your useless charts. It's no wonder you resort to charts, since you can't quote scripture to support your false doctrine.

How can the day of the Lord continue forever when it consists of the sudden burning up of the heavens, the earth and the elements?

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Show me how you can reconcile what you're saying with what this passage says about the day of the Lord. I don't see any indication here of it lasting forever. So, how are you coming up with that?

The destruction of this present earth will take place right before the GWT judgment

I actually agree with that, but I know you believe that happens 1,000+ years after Christ returns which is clearly false. Paul and Peter indicated that the destruction of this present earth will occur when Christ returns on the day of the Lord and that destruction will be sudden and unexpected. There's nothing sudden or unexpected about the destruction of this present earth in your false doctrine.

Both you and @WPM need to develop your own time line charts, showing your rapture timing in relationship to the other time of the end events.

We've already told you the timing using words. If you can't understand words, that's your problem. We don't need to create charts just to cater to your inability to understand words.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Also you and @Spiritual Israelite need to make a time-line chart showing how the events in Revelation fit together with one another for the time frames of...

Revelation 11:2 42 months
Revelation 11:3 1260 days
Revelation 11:9 3 1/2 days
Revelation 12:6 1260 days
Revelation 12:14 a time/times/half time
Revelation 13:5 42 months

No, we don't. Grow up and learn to read, Douggg. There are no charts in scripture. We can explain what we believe using words. If you can't, then too bad for you. The rest of us can do that without a problem.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

it does not matter, a gap is a gap.

and I proved there is a gap in the 70 weeks.. so i already showed you that also. I just showed you a different example of how prophecy can be broken up. and not all happen at the same time..

But you will only see what you want to see

You were asked to show where any prophecy involving a certain amount of time had any gaps in it and you failed to do that. You know there is no such thing. Your arguments are weak. There is no basis whatsoever for putting a gap between the 69th and 70th weeks.

Do you understand that all of the six things listed in Daniel 9:24 have to be fulfilled within the 70 weeks? How can reconciliation for iniquity be made? No other way but by the blood of Jesus, right? So, why is it that you don't have His death falling within any of the 70 weeks despite the fact that without His sacrifice, the things listed in Daniel 9:24 cannot be fulfilled?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You never proved anything, apart from your own ignorance. Show where there is a gap!

I showed you not only in the prophecy Jesus read but also in Daniel 9. A post you still have not responded to. Or shown my my error (because you can’t I know it’s ok)

It is so hard to take your posts serious when you twist so many scriptural statements to support your false teaching. Messiah did not begin His earthly ministry with his triumphant ride into Jerusalem. He began it at His baptism 3 1/2 years earlier.

Well there is your first error in interpreting prophecy

The prophet never says when Jesus will begin any ministry. Or that he will be introduced when he is baptized. The prophet says when and how he will come he literally fulfilled that. As prophesied

And you say I am twisting Lol that’s funny

This is how erroneous, partial and unobjective Pretrib theology is. It cannot be taken serious.

I am not pretrib

And your argument is based on pride. Not on facts you can. It even refute my facts

 

[Taken]

2Thess 1
3 We ought always and indeed are morally obligated [as those in debt] to give thanks to God for you, brothers and sisters, as is fitting, because your faith is growing ever greater, and the [unselfish] love of each one of you toward one another is continually increasing.
4 Therefore, we speak of you with pride among the churches of God for your steadfastness [your unflinching endurance, and patience] and your firm faith in the midst of all the persecution and [crushing] distress which you endure.
5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering.

John 16:33
I have told you these things, so that in Me you may have [perfect] peace. In the world you have tribulation and distress and suffering, but be courageous [be confident, be undaunted, be filled with joy]; I have overcome the world.” [My conquest is accomplished, My victory abiding.]

Revelation 2:10
Fear nothing that you are about to suffer. Be aware that the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested [in your faith], and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful to the point of death [if you must die for your faith], and I will give you the crown [consisting] of life.



Clearly Gods wrath is not the same thing as Tribulation...,

Mark 16:16
He who has believed [in Me] and has been baptized will be saved [from the penalty of God’s wrath and judgment]; but he who has not believed will be condemned.

Romans 1:16
I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation [from His wrath and punishment] to everyone who believes [in Christ as Savior], to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Romans 2:5
But because of your callous stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are [deliberately] storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed.

Tribulations sent from heaven are Judgements upon the Earth designed to negatively Affect the inhabitants upon the Earth.

Wrath is the Consequence / Action of one who is Angry…

The Lambs wrath…the devils wrath…Gods Wrath are all actions against men who have Rejected them (respectively).

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Keraz]

The time difference between America and New Zealand means that I'm asleep while discussion moves quickly along and I miss participating.

So; I will just say that the belief of a pre-mill rapture removal of the Christians is dead, but many still have their hopes and dreams on it.
Scriptures like Revelation 12, 14 & 17, Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7, all totally disprove the rapture to heaven fable.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

On my time line chart you will see that the day of the Lord has a beginning and continues forever. The destruction of this present earth will take place right before the GWT judgment on the time line chart. Both you and @WPM need to develop your own time line charts, showing your rapture timing in relationship to the other time of the end events.

I'd just like to remind everyone one more time of what you said about the following passage:

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

You said this passage involves the sudden destruction of the peace and safety feeling in the world. Since Paul said "they shall not escape" you believe they will not escape the sudden destruction of the peace and safety feeling, whatever that means. You deny that this is talking about physical destruction occurring on the day of the Lord.

So, please tell us, Douggg, how you interpret this passage that is about the same event:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

So, in your view, this is not talking about physical destruction, but rather is talking about the peace and safety on the earth being burned up, right? And, the peace and safety of the heavens being dissolved? And the peace and safety of the elements melting with fervent heat? Do I have this right? I assume that's how you interpret this passage since it's about the same event as 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3.

 

[WPM]

I'd just like to remind everyone one more time of what you said about the following passage:

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

You said this passage involves the sudden destruction of the peace and safety feeling in the world. Since Paul said "they shall not escape" you believe they will not escape the sudden destruction of the peace and safety feeling, whatever that means. You deny that this is talking about physical destruction occurring on the day of the Lord.

So, please tell us, Douggg, how you interpret this passage that is about the same event:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

So, in your view, this is not talking about physical destruction, but rather is talking about the peace and safety on the earth being burned up, right? And, the peace and safety of the heavens being dissolved? And the peace and safety of the elements melting with fervent heat? Do I have this right? I assume that's how you interpret this passage since it's about the same event as 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3.

Bro, you get your eyes opened when you engage with Pretribbers online over time. You discover that there is no real overriding desire to ascertain what Scripture is really teaching but rather a strong habitual drive to justify Pretrib at whatever cost, and by whatever means are required. This is most graphically highlighted when you discuss texts that are so clear, detailed and vivid in their wording and context, yet they dismiss the inspired wording, rewrite what it is saying, paper over the contradictions in their own position, and come out with all types of ridiculous justifications. You find that they are more in love with a doctrine than with the actual teaching of the sacred text.

Whatever it takes to justify this Jesuit teaching will be employed to give it a semblance of credibility. They will not let the Holy Spirit lead them into truth on this matter.

 

[WPM]

"Pretribulationists miss (or ignore) the fact that the promise being given here was actually written to the Philadelphian believers in John’s day."

Under this guidance we should never read romans because it was written to Romans.

You are rendering this promise irrelevant, meaningless and pointless, as none of the 7 churches went through your so-called end-time tribulation and none of them were raptured. In your rational, every single church in history apart from your supposed 7-year tribulation period will automatically be rewarded by not being on earth for this period (regardless of their faithfulness or unfaithfulness). That is ridiculous. In reality, according to your argument, the Philadelphian church was not rewarded.

Whatever the trial in view was Christ promised this early church that they would escape it. If a rapture was what Christ was pushing at, and if they had fulfilled their side of the bargain, then they would assuredly have experienced what Christ had promised them. But they didn’t! We all know: Christ is not one to break His promise. He is not a liar. He is not a deceiver. What is more, Christ doesn’t make empty promises. The fact is, despite their obedience and perseverance, they all eventually died and went the way of all believers to heaven upon death. This is evidence enough to prove that that wasn’t what He was speaking about. Are Pretribs suggesting that the Philadelphians kept their part, but Christ fell short with His? Did Jesus break His Word? This theory doesn’t make any sense.

Historically, we know that persecution overwhelmed the Church generally in Asia Minor but Christ preserved the Philadelphian congregation from the worst ravishes of the tribulation that unfolded. Jesus therefore kept His word. This proves the Posttrib position that this has already been fulfilled.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Bro, you learn when you engage with Pretribbers online over time that there is no real overriding desire to ascertain what Scripture is really teaching but rather a strong habitual drive to justify Pretrib, at whatever cost, and by whatever means are required. This is most graphically highlighted when you expose a blatant error like this above, that is so biblically obvious and water tight, yet they paper over it and come out with all types of ridiculous justifications. You find that they are more in love with a doctrine than with the actual teaching of the sacred text.

Whatever it takes to justify this Jesuit teaching will be employed to give it a semblance of credibility. They will not let the Holy Spirit lead them into truth on this matter.

Agree. I can't comprehend how they are willing to be so dishonest with scripture like that to the point of coming up with completely ludicrous interpretations like that one and the one that says the "sudden destruction" is emotional destruction. Wow. Emotional destruction from which they shall not escape? Really? I'd like to see how he interprets 2 Peter 3:10-12 from the perspective. It is just mind boggling. I can't imagine that they actually believe the nonsense they come up with. Being willing to make scripture say what they want it to say just to hold on to their doctrine. I just don't understand that kind of dishonest mindset at all. How can anyone treat the holy word of God that way?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The time difference between America and New Zealand means that I'm asleep while discussion moves quickly along and I miss participating.

So; I will just say that the belief of a pre-mill rapture removal of the Christians is dead, but many still have their hopes and dreams on it.
Scriptures like Revelation 12, 14 & 17, Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7, all totally disprove the rapture to heaven fable.

It's a pre-trib rapture they believe in, not a pre-mill rapture. Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 make it clear that the rapture is post-trib. But, yes, the idea of a rapture to heaven is not taught in scripture anywhere.

 

[WPM]

Agree. I can't comprehend how they are willing to be so dishonest with scripture like that to the point of coming up with completely ludicrous interpretations like that one and the one that says the "sudden destruction" is emotional destruction. Wow. Emotional destruction from which they shall not escape? Really? I'd like to see how he interprets 2 Peter 3:10-12 from the perspective. It is just mind boggling. I can't imagine that they actually believe the nonsense they come up with. Being willing to make scripture say what they want it to say just to hold on to their doctrine. I just don't understand that kind of dishonest mindset at all. How can anyone treat the holy word of God that way?

Yes, and all the time talking out the other side of their mouth at the same time, claiming that they believe in taking Scripture literally. It is a joke! It needs to be exposed!

 

[rwb]

it does not matter, a gap is a gap.

and I proved there is a gap in the 70 weeks.. so i already showed you that also. I just showed you a different example of how prophecy can be broken up. and not all happen at the same time..

But you will only see what you want to see

Daniel 9:24 (KJV) Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Seventy weeks of years equals 490 years. You find literal fulfillment through the advent of Messiah the Prince at the coming of Christ. But then you can't fit the final seven literally with the advent of Christ's coming to earth a man. How many years do you believe this final seven shall be since you force a gap between 483 literal years and the ONE WEEK (final seven) when Daniel says the covenant is confirmed, and in the midst of the ONE WEEK sacrifice and oblation cease, and the overspreading of abominations make desolate until the consummation and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate???

Daniel 9:25-27 (KJV) Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

How do you justify literal fulfillment pertaining to the advent of Christ coming, then when the last seven doesn't literally fit your gap theory, you must switch from literal fulfillment to a period of time that to date is about two thousand years??? Notice what I've underlined for you. It does not say in the final/last seven, it says ONE WEEK. Since we're talking about things being literally fulfilled with the advent of Christ coming to earth a man, why do you force a gap of unknown time into the prophesy?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, and all the time talking out the other side of their mouth at the same time, claiming that they believe in taking Scripture literally. It is a joke! It needs to be exposed!

Agree. We see how literal they actually are when we present scriptures like Matthew 24:35-39, John 5:28-29, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 and 2 Peter 3:10-13. All of a sudden they aren't so literal anymore when it comes to passages like those. Even though there's no indication in the context of those passages that they should not be interpreted literally. Yet, they interpret everything in the highly symbolic book of Revelation literally that isn't very obviously symbolic. As if it's not possible for something in that book to be symbolic unless it's obvious or explicitly shown to be symbolic. We're not explicitly told that the great chain in Revelation 20 is a symbolic chain, so they assume it must be literal and is used to literally bind a spirit being somehow.

 

[Douggg]

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

So, in your view, this is not talking about physical destruction, but rather is talking about the peace and safety on the earth being burned up, right? And, the peace and safety of the heavens being dissolved? And the peace and safety of the elements melting with fervent heat? Do I have this right? I assume that's how you interpret this passage since it's about the same event as 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3.

2 Peter 3:10 is talking about this present earth being completely destroyed. It will happen right before the Great White Throne Judgment in Revelation 20. Here is the verse...

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Differently, the sudden destruction in 1Thessalonians5:2-3 is not referring to the entire planet being destroyed, but the destruction to take place during time of God's wrath (1Thessalonians5:9).

Take a look at this time line chart - all of the verses are referenced on the chart.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Daniel 9:24 (KJV) Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Seventy weeks of years equals 490 years. You find literal fulfillment through the advent of Messiah the Prince at the coming of Christ. But then you can't fit the final seven literally with the advent of Christ's coming to earth a man. How many years do you believe this final seven shall be since you force a gap between 483 literal years and the ONE WEEK (final seven) when Daniel says the covenant is confirmed, and in the midst of the ONE WEEK sacrifice and oblation cease, and the overspreading of abominations make desolate until the consummation and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate???

Daniel 9:25-27 (KJV) Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

How do you justify literal fulfillment pertaining to the advent of Christ coming, then when the last seven doesn't literally fit your gap theory, you must switch from literal fulfillment to a period of time that to date is about two thousand years??? Notice what I've underlined for you. It does not say in the final/last seven, it says ONE WEEK. Since we're talking about things being literally fulfilled with the advent of Christ coming to earth a man, why do you force a gap of unknown time into the prophesy?

Right. They won't admit it, but they see the first 69 weeks as each being seven years in duration and they have stretched the 70th week to almost 2,000 years now. Also, it says that the Messiah would be cut off after the 69th week. His death is absolutely crucial to the fulfillment of the things listed in Daniel 9:24 that were to be fulfilled within 70 weeks, so it's not reasonable to not have His death fall within any of the 70 weeks. Since He was cut off after the end of the 69th week, His death must fall within the 70th week. But, they deny this. To deny that requires someone to conclude that Daniel 9:24 can be fulfilled apart from the death of Christ, but that is impossible. No reconciliation can be made for iniquity apart from the shed blood of Christ.

 

[WPM]

2 Peter 3:10 is talking about this present earth being completely destroyed. It will happen right before the Great White Throne Judgment in Revelation 20. Here is the verse...

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Differently, the sudden destruction in 1Thessalonians5:2-3 is not referring to the entire planet being destroyed, but the destruction to take place during time of God's wrath (1Thessalonians5:9).

Take a look at this time line chart - all of the verses are referenced on the chart.


View attachment 49841

He has already told you many times that he is not going to engage with your silly charts. I don't know whether anyone looks at them, but they are a waste of time. It is now time to engage with Scripture instead of running from it.

How is it not global? Where does it say that? You make it up as you go. You might as well invent Bible that allows Pretrib.

A careful study of the Greek words ouranos and gē mentioned in 2 Peter 3, which some Premillennialists are forced to redefine, shows your interpretation to be in error. 59 times in the New Testament “heaven” and “earth” are coupled together in the same passage describing exactly what the outside of the box says – what most ordinary people would understand as “heaven” and “earth.” Interestingly, in every case where the two Greek words ouranos and gē are employed to describe the heavenly realm and the globe of the earth. Philippians 2:10 is the only slight variation, although it is only a technical difference, where a literal reading of the text should read ‘earthly’ (epigeios) and ‘heavenly’ (epouranios). However, both significantly were derived from the same two repeated Greek words used elsewhere to describe “heaven” and “earth” – ouranos and gē. What is more, of the 6 references to “heavens” (plural) and “earth” all use these two same Greek words.

2 Peter 3:10-13 couldn't be clearer: “the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens ouranos shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements [Gr. stoicheion] shall melt with fervent heat, the earth [Gr. gē] also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens [Gr. ouranos] being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements [Gr. stoicheion] shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens [Gr. ouranos] and a new earth [Gr. gē], wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

It is not just that Peter is delineating the removal of the old heavens and earth at Christ’s return; he significantly describes the replacement of the old corrupt arrangement with a new heavens and earth at this climactic event. No one would surely feel the need to localize this depiction unless they were trying to sustain a doctrine that contradicts this passage.

Surely no one would try to limit the subject and scope of the new heavens and earth in view; so why would they do it to the old heaven and earth? Why would the Lord when He comes in all His final glory introduce a replacement earth that is little (or no) different than that which He just burnt up? This simply doesn’t make sense.

If the remedy for the corruption of the old heavens and earth is the introduction of a brand-new perfect heavens and earth then we are looking at an all-consummating reference to the destruction of the current globe and the existing heavens. The old arrangement that is marked by sin and rebellion is indeed destroyed by fire (as Peter said) and changed to a new glorified perfect arrangement “wherein dwelleth righteousness.” The limitations of this present earthly life are left behind forever. This allows no room for the continuation of unrighteousness or corruption as Premils insists. Such is totally eliminated through the conflagration.

He certainly isn't referring to part of the “new earth,” so why would he be referring to only part of the earth as it is now? That doesn't line up. He is contrasting the heavens and earth as it is now to the new heavens and new earth, just as John does in Revelation 21:1. This totally correlates with the detailed description of the conflagration and the introduction of the new perfect arrangement in Revelation 21. John describes the exact same event in Revelation 21:1-5 as Peter did in 2 Peter 3.

This parallel reinforces the belief that the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ occurs at the end of Revelation 20, not at the start. Interestingly he uses the same words for heaven and earth as Peter, but he adds further elucidation on the bliss of the new earth. What Peter sums up in one statement “we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness,” John gives in greater detail.

Revelation 21 proves that the new arrangement is incorrupt: “And I saw a new heaven [Gr. ouranos] and a new earth [Gr. gē]: for the first heaven [Gr. ouranos] and the first earth [Gr. gē] were passed away; and there was no more sea … And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.”

Any limitation placed on the wording and detail of the destruction described in 2 Peter 3, in order to prolong the current earth, must also equally be applied to Revelation 21 – if Premils are going to be consistent. Both passages describe the same all-consummating event and show the same glorious restoration. Of course, all the schools of thought are in total agreement with the finality embodied within Revelation 21 and the perfection the new ushers in. 2 Peter 3 should then be viewed in exactly the same as it refers to the same event. In each we see the passing away of the old and the introduction of the new. Both readings beautifully correlate and show that the new earth is devoid of corruption or the Fall and characterized by righteousness and perfection.

Placing 2 Peter 3 and Revelation 21 side-by-side demonstrates that the first heaven and first earth will pass away as a result of being burned up by fire. That is very clear. But what will result in the passing away of the heavens and earth with fire? The introduction of the new heavens and new earth. This fits like a glove whereas the Premillennial understanding of 2 Peter 3 makes it completely unrelated to Rev 21:1. If Premillennialists were consistent in their hermeneutics they would insist that "the first earth" mentioned in Revelation 21 is also only speaking of a part of the earth rather than the entire earth. But of course they don’t. It would obliterate their reasoning.

Premillennials skate around the fact that this future fiery event is compared directly to the flood. How much of the earth was covered by the waters of the deluge? All of it. 2 Peter 3:7 confirms, “the heavens [Gr. ouranos] and the earth [Gr. gē], which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.” That means whatever was affected by the waters of the flood, by the same word, will be affected by the fire to come. There is simply no basis for thinking that any part of the earth will spared from this fiery judgment.

It is right and proper to view this word gē as referring to the whole earth. The old earth is destroyed and replaced by a new glorified earth.