Millions?
Where did that figure come from?
The above doesn't make a church a cult.
It just makes it wrong.
(at that time).
Protestants have their own problems.
Man is sinful in every denomination man will ruin the church.
OSAS : Gnostic Heresy
- Thread starter GracePeace
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Where did that figure come from?
The above doesn't make a church a cult.
It just makes it wrong.
(at that time).
Protestants have their own problems.
Man is sinful in every denomination man will ruin the church.
Taken
Well-Known Member
Taken
Well-Known Member
Sure…every organization has it’s issues…
Some organizations simply have operated longer, thus their issues compounded and noticed.
Well, as you know, I'm not here to defend any denomination...
but, in all honesty, the CC is trying to change.
For the better.
Too late maybe.
But for other reasons.
What the other member is discussing happened in the dark ages....
when the church was too embroiled in matters of state.
Big mistake.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
I was rounding down actually. I am sure the actual total was much much more.
Its still a cult. in the true sense of the word
Never said they did not. to me it is not a catholic vs protestant (I hate that name) issue. It is a Bible issue,
Yep I agree 100% no argument here
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
Rom 4:15
......for where no law is, there is no transgression.
1 Jn 3:4
sin is the transgression of the law.
Rom 7:8-9
For without the law sin was dead.
For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
How the BIble defines what sin in the above verses makes the idea of OS impossible. According to the BIble for one to be a sinner there must be law (Rom 4:15) that law must be transgressed (1 Jn 3:4) by a person who is accountable to God's law (Rom 7:8-9).
This also eliminates the idea of men be made sinners UNconditionally apart from men transgressing God's law.
In Rom 7:8 Paul points out that if there were no law there would be no sin, see also Rom 4:15. For Paul to say he was once alive without law means there was a time in Paul's life as an infant he was not accountable to God's law. As an infant he was innocent thereby he was 'alive' and sin was dead to him. Yet as Paul intellectually matured and learned God's law, learning right from wrong, Isa 7:15-16, it was THEN sin sprang up in him.....not at birth.
Paul speaks of his spiritual state in using the words "alive" and 'died' If OS were true then Paul would have been born "dead" and remained that way unless/until he became a born again Christian. Yet he was born spiritually alive, learned God's law THEN he died.
Rom 7:8-9 not only refutes OS it also refutes OSAS.
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
Rom 5:18
(a) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; (b) even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Rom 5:19
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
--it 18a teaches all men are sinners due to Adam then EVEN SO, it is also true that same all will be made righteous by Christ and that is Universalism.
Paul is simply pointing out in v18 that the benefits of Christ's righteous act that can justify is available to to as many who have been affected by Adam's offence, (no Calvinism election found here). Adam chose to sin, hence people become sinners by following in Adam's footsteps in choosing to sin. And one can become a Christian and justified by choosing to walk obediently in the footsteps of Christ. People choose to go into sin and can also choose to come out of sin.
--in v19 Paul went from using "all' to "many". 'Many' not 'all' were made sinners for Christ was not made a sinner, infants and those who are born with severe mental disabilities are not made sinners, Likewise some are made righteous, 'all' are not made righteous (Universalism).
People read the idea of being "made UNconditionally" into the text. Rom 5:1 it is those who CONDITIONALLY have faith that are made righteous and those who CONDITIONALLY choose to sin are made sinners V12.
I keep getting alerts for this thread!
Can't seem to leave....
You're having an interesting conversation and I've missed most of it.
I find that I THINK I agree with @GracePeace but I think she/he uses words that are not familiar to me.
I don't see the change from ALL to MANY in Romans 5:19
Could you check that again please?
However, I think I do agree with you.
Judgment came upon all men because, due to Adam's sin, we are all born with the sin nature.
HOWEVER, we do not become SINNERS until we begin to willfully sin since we are each responsible only for our own sins.
IOW, we are born stained with Adam's sin...or with the sin nature...
This is not the same as being SINNERS....which could only happen when we become aware of what sin is and then do it anyway.
1. I try very hard to follow closely with Scripture--to a degree even my Jesuit step father says "it can't be that tight" when I explain Ro 7:1-6
2. He
We are born spiritually alive, but with the body of sin, and we die when the body of sin kills us after we come to the age of accountability. Some people acknowledge their slavery, some don't--the Samaritan woman responded very differently than the Pharisees to Jesus's telling then they were in sin.
We don't do it. Sin works its own works in us--beginning with the desire-thought.
Yes, I do believe we're in agreement.
But what do you mean by your last line?
We don't do it. Sin works its own works in us--beginning with the desire-thought.
What do you meant by WE DON'T DO IT?
And, yes, maybe your step-father was right!
In other words, just as we don't do good in Christ, so, also, sinners don't sin when they're in sin.
No, he wasn't right, because his understanding of the text renders Paul incoherent.
Wow. Yeah, GP, I'm pretty sure we agree on everything, but you sure do use language I'm not used to!
I don't understand what you just posted above.
You said:
In other words, just as we don't do good in Christ, so, also, sinners don't sin when they're in sin.
No idea what that means.
Are you using a particular verse?
You may not wish to get into this, but it would be interesting to have more detail...
Paul says sin caused him to sin it wasn't him in in Ro 7; 1 Co 15 he says the same is true after salvation.
About Ro 7:1-6 : he says believing Jews are set free because they died, meaning they are both the wife and the husband in Paul's picture there.
Since you started this thread, maybe we could get into this a little more and see if we could find a common language?
I think that what you call the sin body is known as the sin nature.
IOW, when we're born, we're stained with the sin of Adam.
Our nature has been corrupted.
It used to be God-like before Adam sinned....God made us in His image and we did, indeed, look more like Him.
Adam's fall caused us all to have this original sin cause us to be born having lost the God-like image in which He had created us.
(I'm not going to get into age of accountability for simplicity's sake)
So, this stain of original sin is called the sin nature.
That thing in us that takes away from us the glory of God and makes us, instead, slaves to the whims of satan not only in sinning but in our very nature - which is what we need salvation from.
Do you agree with this?
The Jews who rejected the Law and believed in the heart-teaching of Jesus were indeed set free.
But I think this is a different discussion - maybe for later.
Paul says in Ro 6:6 "the body of sin" and in Ro 7 "this body of death" (sin leads to death so these are synonymous).
The body is the body of sin.
The Law says if a clay vessel is defiled it cannot be cleansed and must be destroyed instead.
We were irrevocably defiled by Adam's sin (speculating : perhaps this was why Christ had to be born of a virgin--the cursed flesh comes from one's earthly father); thankfully, we can die with Christ.
Anyone who believes in Christ dies with him; Paul explains what the effect of the death with Christ is with regard to believing Jews' legal obligation to serve by the Law.
Romans 7:24-25 is explained very well in The Passion Translation and the Amplified Bible.
I'll post the Passion Translation which, in this case, explains it well:
What an agonizing situation I am in! So who has the power to rescue this miserable man from the unwelcome intruder of sin and death? I give all my thanks to God, for his mighty power has finally provided a way out through our Lord Jesus, the Anointed One! So if left to myself, the flesh is aligned with the law of sin, but now my renewed mind is fixed on and submitted to God’s righteous principles.
Paul realizes that there's a conflict between what his sinful nature wants to do and what his new creature tells him to do.
This is resolved by Jesus...by the New Covenant in which we are still required to obey the Law of God - the 10 commandments, but which now we have been given the means of obeying the commandments.
Our sin nature has been put under submission.
We are no longer its slave,
Romans 6:16
Do you not know that the one to whom you present yourselves as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of that same one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
We are freed from slavery to satan by the power of having died and been resurrected to life in Christ.
Great speculation!
This is also why Mary had to be immaculate....
God would not place Jesus in an unclean vessel.
True.
We no longer serve the law as slaves.
But we obey God's commandments as friends.
Thanks to our life in Jesus.
1. The Passion Translation is more of a paraphrase, like "The Message", so its wording is more poetic, artistic license.
2. Ro 6:6 says "the body of sin", and Ro 7 says we died, so we know "the body of sin", "my outward man", is the physical body which the Law indicates is impossible to purge and must instead be destroyed.
We fulfill the Law by the New way of the Spirit (eg, the Gentile believers, who do not possess the Law (Ro 2:14,15), nor know the Law (Ro 7:1), are deemed "doers of the Law" because of the fulfillment of the New Covenant promise that God will write His Law on our hearts by His Spirit), not the oldness of the letter, but that is not the discussion here.
I don't follow the reasoning about Mary, but it's not important, and I don't want to open that can of worms.
Wasn't saying they don't serve God--that wasn't my point about Ro 7:1-6.
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Right. But I did biblehub interlinear and I like how it explained it the best.
I usually use the NASB.
But sometimes the verse needs to be explained...
Romans 5 is a good example.
OK.
Instead the sin nature is something we have inside from the moment we're born.
I actually think we're talking about the same thing. I'm surprised no other member has joined in.
Agreed.
OK But I DO agree with it.
OK.
My point is that we still serve God but in a different way from The Law.
Again, my view is supported not merely by individual words here and there, but by entire passages (eg, entirety of Ro 7), and Biblical typology.
You may not enjoy my explanation, but, bc it's literally just Scripture, there is no better one--and I would challenge you to work toward debunking it, work to undercut any part of the argument I've used.
The difference is I have explicit Scripture identifying and defining my view, whereas "the sin nature", as you have put forth, is nebulous, undefined, and, therefore, unhelpful.
I'm a little relieved now that i think about it. Lol!
You said my step dad may have been right that I was too meticulous about Ro 7, but that is wrong, bc his view renders Ro 7:1-6 gobbledygook, bc it doesn't identify the believer as both the one who died and the one who is set free, as both the husband and the wife (ie, most explanations say the "husband" is either God (bc Christ died), or the Law (but the Law was never alive so it never died)).
Please understand that the "body of sin", "the outward man", as I understand it, and your desire to emphasize sin's power and presence over "my inner man" are not at all at odds : the claim I'm making about the body of sin is that the inward man is enslaved by the irretrievably defiled body of sin, as Ro 7 teaches.
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