Amil can only be proved to be true if Amils accept all of the following terms and convincingly satisfy these terms.

[Davidpt]

Why don't you explain the beast ascending out of the pit only when the 42 months/1260 days have ended? How do you reconcile that with your interpretation of Revelation 13 which has the beast ascending out of the pit at the beginning of the 42 months instead?

Revelation 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. 3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. 5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. 7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

I'm not certain what you are asking me to do here? I'll try to do what you ask once it is clear to me what you are asking me to do. For some reason it's going over my head at the moment.

 

[Davidpt]

How could Amils NOT believe saints are being martyred during this symbolic period of time, since we believe a/the thousand years does not equate to one thousand years in the future, because it symbolizes an unspecified amount of time that began with the advent of Christ coming to earth a man, and will not end until the seventh trumpet sounds.

Not certain what your point is here, all I know is, I didn't say nor imply Amils did not believe that. What's in question here, do the texts involved agree with what Amils believe here?

These saints (Rev 20) were martyred AFTER they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Are you basically saying this? These saints are martyred after they began living and reigning with Christ a thousand years. If yes, explain why they need to be reigning with Christ a thousand years in order to be martyred? Take John the Baptist, for instance. He was martyred, but was he martyred because he was reigning with Christ a thousand years?

I hope you don't believe that his little season equates to one thousand literal years!

How could I or how could any Premil believe that? Or anyone for that matter, even if they are not Premil. The thousand years and satan's little season do not parallel each other. The latter follows the former, regardless if one is Premil or Amil.

 

[WPM]

Agree. Another thing we can do to show the timing of Revelation 20 is to compare these two passages:

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The first thing to notice here is that it says Jesus Christ is "the first begotten of the dead". That means He was the first to rise from the dead. His resurrection unto bodily immortality made it possible for the dead in Christ to also be resurrected unto bodily immortality when He comes (1 Cor 15:22-23).

Acts 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

The next thing to notice is that it calls Jesus "the prince of the kings of the earth" and "to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever". Present tense. He reigns now, as other scriptures in indicate as well (Matt 28:16-18, Eph 1:19-23, Col 1:12-13).

The next thing to notice is that having part in the first resurrection, which is Christ's resurrection, results in the second death having no power over someone. At what point does the second death no longer have power over someone? Surely, it doesn't have power over the dead in Christ whose souls are in heaven with Jesus right now. Surely, a bodily resurrection is not necessary in order to avoid the second death or else those who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord would not avoid the second death. Spiritually having part in Christ's resurrection and having your sins washed away by His blood is how the second death no longer has power over someone.

Finally, notice when people are made priests of God and of Christ. That had already occurred at the time John was writing the book. Peter wrote that those in the church ARE a royal priesthood (1 Peter 2:9). So, that again shows how Revelation 20 has been a reality for a long time already. All of the things written in Revelation 20:6 have been true about Christ and for believers since the resurrection of Christ.

Well put! Brilliant! Premils take a roasting on every topic. You would think they would get it if they were open to truth. But what they have been taught is more important.

 

[WPM]

I didn't forget that. How is that relevant per the OP, though? The OP involves whether or not saints are being martyred during the thousand years. And that we can not ignore what Revelation 20:4 records concerning the following martyrs--which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands.

Obviously, there has to be an era of time that explains when they were martyred and the reasons they were martyred. Is there an era of time recorded in the Bible that might explain this? Of course there is, that being Revelation 13. Except Revelation 13 only involves 42 months, therefore, couldn't possibly be meaning the thousand years. But let's say it could be meaning that. How in the world would that help Amil if Amil has the beast in the pit the entire thousand years? Clearly, as of Revelation 13, the beast is no longer in the pit at this point. Amil would be contradicting itself if Amil is insisting that the beast is in the pit the entire thousand years, while insisting Revelation 13 is paralleling this same thousand years.

You are trying to foist your faulty Premil understanding of what the binding of Satan is, when it occurs, and what the abyss is, upon Amil, in order to refute it. You do this often. Well, this is not the way it works. You should examine a point of view for what it is, not what you want it to be. Your tactics are therefore very deceptive and underhand.

You do not do this out of ignorance, you do this deliberately, with the intent of misrepresenting the Amil position. You have no grasp after all these years of what Amils believe, or do you want to know. That is because of your hostility to that position. Also, you do not listen. You are not open. You are blinkered.

When your position is exposed you run. You will not address the many holes, contradictions and errors in Premil.

Christian martyrdom has been happening throughout the millennial period, beginning at the first resurrection. How you cannot see that is beyond me. You're trying to make an issue out of nothing.

 

[Keraz]

Bible prophecy refers to a divinely established Utopia (Greek- good place) in which, God puts an end to this world of injustice and unrighteousness on earth and replaces it with a world of justice and righteousness on earth.
This end times Kingdom is the covenantal kingdom, brought to its ultimate perfection and ideal consummation, here on earth. Hebrews 8:8-12 It will last for 1000 years, as Revelation 20 clearly informs us.

Daniel 7:27 The Kingly power, sovereignty and greatness of all the Kingdoms under heaven will be given to the Holy people of the Most High. Their Kingly power will last for ever and every realm will serve and obey them.

So, how will the God of justice and righteousness treat the Gentiles in establishing this utopian Kingdom on earth?
Micah 4:1-2 In days to come, the Lords House will tower above the hills. The nations will stream toward it, saying; Let us go to the House of Jacob’s God, that He may teach us His ways, for instruction comes from Zion. [and in Isaiah 2:2-4]
Zechariah 8:20 Nations and dwellers in many cities will come to Jerusalem to entreat the favour of the Lord. Zechariah 14:16-21

Those warlike and idol worshipping peoples will be converted to godly worship, under a God of justice and peace. They will not become Israelites, but all will live together under God. This will be the situation after Jesus Returns, during His Millennium rule.

 

[WPM]

These terms are not unreasonable, thus are fair. If Amils are to prove what they allege, that Amil is true, well they can't do that until they first show/prove that saints are being martyred during the thousand years, according to the text of Revelation 20...

Amils then need to show/prove that saints are being martyred during the thousand years and they must show this under the following terms. Anything less is unsatisfactory.

Revelation 20:4 says, “And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls [Gr. tas psychas] of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived (aorist active indicative) and reigned (aorist active indicative) with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.”

Revelation 20:4 is simply talking about the dead in Christ that reign as kings and priests now with Christ in heaven. They have experienced their "part" in the "first resurrection in life (salvation) and now they rule with Him in glory. Simple!

This is a current event. Please note the tenses. Also, this is the dead in Christ reigning in glory now in heaven. We are looking at "souls" here (namely the disembodied saints) not bodied saints.

The tribulation period has been ongoing since Stephen. Many Christians have been martyred for the faith through the centuries. I would recommend you read Foxes Book of Martyrs which describes the 40 million believers that lost their lives to the Roman Catholic Church. Before the Roman Catholic Church you have the severe persecution of the Roman Empire. Over recent years you have had the onslaught of Islam. That is who Revelation 20 is speaking of – the dead in Christ now in heaven.

Anyway, thrones are always located within the heavenly domain – the place of authority and power. The scene that we observe in this symbolic passage is surely a heavenly one. The believers in view are deliberately described as “the souls” proving that we are looking at the great heavenly host of the redeemed of God in disembodied form. As yet they have not received their glorified bodies.

Revelation 6:9-10 similarly says, closely paralleling the scene portrayed in Revelation 20, “I saw under the altar the souls [Gr. tas psychas] of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?”

Revelation 20:4-5 and Revelation 6:9-10 show the dead in Christ in a disembodied state now in heaven (until glorification). They do not receive new bodies upon death, but at the coming of the Lord. It is showing us that there is a victory over the grave for the believer. They are alive and kicking. They worshiping the Lord around His altar after death. .Few would have any difficulty in accepting that Revelation 6:9-10 – the fifth seal – is speaking (1) of the disembodied spirits of the “dead in Christ,” (2) that they are found in heaven and (2) at a time prior to the Second Advent and the day of God’s wrath – the sixth seal.

The very next verse of this narrative (6:11) confirms, “And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.”

Here these disembodied saints are described as resting before “the altar” in heaven “for a little season” until the arrival of their “fellowservants” and “brethren” that are still being persecuted and “dwell on the earth.” This verifies the fact that this group is speaking of the disembodied saints and that they are located in heaven. Those who would suggest that “the souls” outlined in Revelation 20:4 are anything other than the same heavenly saints described in Revelation 6:9-10 are sadly mistaken. The Premillennial argument that they are glorified believers reigning over the wicked on earth during a supposed future post-Second Advent millennium is surely unsound?

It is important to note, the same word in the same tense is used to describe both the righteous and the wicked during the millennium. Both parties remain in their current state until the one final future climactic Coming of Christ. Then they will receive their eternal reward. The word zaō in the Greek simply means to live. It is rendered “lived” in the King James Version. It is active, meaning the subject continues to exist in the state indicated by the verb. This proves we are currently in the millennium.

Revelation 5, which is evidently located before the Second Advent, describes the same kingly/priestly reign of the redeemed in heaven, saying, “they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast (aorist active indicative) redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made (aorist active indicative) us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth” (v. 9).

There is little doubt this scene is current and relates to a time-period preceding the second coming of the Lord. Moreover, no reasonable Bible student would surely deny that the reading relates to anything other than the redeemed situated in heaven. Here, the disembodied spirits of the elect in heaven are seen reigning as kings and priests now. Significantly, and like Revelation 20:4, the dead in Christ in heaven are described (in relation to their kingship and priesthood) as “hast made” – proving this is speaking of the current fulfillment of the same. The aorist active indicative demonstrates that this is ongoing in this intra-Advent period.

Revelation 20:6 confirms: “Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection (Christ’s resurrection): on such the second death (spiritual death – eternal punishment) hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

This is talking about salvation and current kingship as believers.

 

[rwb]

Not certain what your point is here, all I know is, I didn't say nor imply Amils did not believe that. What's in question here, do the texts involved agree with what Amils believe here?

Yes, the text does prove Amil. Because saints are being martyred and have been martyred just as John writes. The saints John describes as being alive AFTER they were physically killed during this time he writes a thousand years. The doctrine of Premil would have us believe these martyred saints have not yet lived and reigned with Christ but shall live and reign with Him for one thousand years. That means they have to be bodily resurrected at the beginning of one thousand literal years, but you don't say when they were martyred. According to John they had already lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

This proves a thousand years cannot literally be one thousand years, because none shall be bodily resurrected to immortality (which they would have to be to physically live one thousand years) before the last trumpet sounds. And nowhere in Scripture can Premil prove there will be two separate physical/bodily resurrections. Scripture speaks only of the "first resurrection" during this time written a/the thousand years and then after this period of time, the last trumpet will sound and ALL the DEAD, both those who have done good and those who have done evil shall be bodily resurrected, either to resurrection life or damnation.

Are you basically saying this? These saints are martyred after they began living and reigning with Christ a thousand years. If yes, explain why they need to be reigning with Christ a thousand years in order to be martyred? Take John the Baptist, for instance. He was martyred, but was he martyred because he was reigning with Christ a thousand years?

I'm writing what John has said. "and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years". These martyred saints have lived and reigned with Christ in TIME (a thousand symbolic years). During this time they remained faithful to Christ unto physical death. But John tells us they are souls with life and not dead. How can that be? Since in time (a thousand years) they remained faithful and died in Christ, had part in the first resurrection through Christ, they possessed eternal life through the Holy Spirit in them. So, physical death killed their mortal body, but their spirit returned to God (Ecc. 12:7) alive. That's why John can write that he saw the "souls" of them in heaven, as spiritual body (1Cor 15:44). John does not see physical bodies that have been beheaded physically alive again. Because there shall be NO bodily resurrection before the hour coming, when the last trumpet sounds the last day, when time shall be no longer.

Saints don't have to literally reign with Christ for ONE thousand years. Faithful saints shall have lived and reigned with Christ before death in TIME, which is what a/the thousand years symbolizes. When we are faithful unto death as spiritual body of Christ we ascend to heaven where we continue to be living souls. There is a soul wherever life is found. That life is physical while we live on this earth, and after our body dies saints continue to have spiritual life after physical death because Christ has promised that whosoever lives and believes in Him "shall NEVER die."

 

[Davidpt]

It's pretty clear by now that nothing we can do will ever satisfy you, so why should we bother with this? Do you somehow not know that we (WPM and I in particular) have addressed this with you many times already in the past? Do you imagine that we'll say anything different this time than we've already said to you in the past? But, here you are bringing this up as if we haven't already discussed this with you several times before.

As we have indicated to you many times before, our understanding of the beast is completely different from yours. And, no matter what we do, we can't get you to even understand what we believe about the beast. So, if you can't even understand our understanding of the beast, then how can you understand anything we say about the beast? The only way you could be satisfied with our response is if we had the same understanding of the beast as you do, but we don't. So, what is the point of yet again trying to explain something to you that you either can't understand or make little effort to understand?

Doctrine needs to be founded on clear and straightforward scriptures which we can then use to help interpret more difficult scriptures like those found in books like Daniel, Isaiah and Revelation. There are clear scriptures which teach that Jesus has been reigning since His resurrection, that Satan was bound long ago, that all unbelievers will be killed when Christ returns, that all of the dead will be resurrected in the same hour, and that all people will be judged at the same time. Premils ignore those scripture or try to make them fit their interpretation of Revelation 20 instead of the other way around.

You talk about scripture interpreting scripture. LOL. As if you allow scripture to interpret scripture. Hardly.

Do you get your understanding of the timing of Christ's reign by interpreting scripture with scripture? Not at all. Scripture teaches that He has been reigning since His resurrection (Matt 28:18, Eph 1:19-23, Rev 1:5-6), but you ignore that.

Do you get your understanding of two future judgment days from the scriptures that only speak of one judgment day, such as Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50 and Matthew 25:31-46? No.

Do you get your understanding of two separate mass bodily resurrections from John 5:28-29, which says a singular hour is coming when all of the dead will be raised?

Do you get your understanding that there will be mortal survivors of Christ's return from passages that say Jesus will destroy all of His enemies when He returns, such as Matthew 24:35-39, Luke 17:26-30, 1 Thess 5:2-3, 2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-12 and Rev 19:17-18?

Oops. So much for you interpreting scripture with scripture.

When did I ever say Christ is not currently reigning? I agree He is currently reigning, but not like how He will be when He returns to the earth, that being when He sits in the throne of His glory for all upon the earth to behold and to literally see with their own eyes.

Likely one of the real reasons you have an issue with what I'm doing, regardless what you and @WPM have told me in the past regarding your view of the beast, is that Revelation 20:4 and the saints martyred for not worshiping the beast fit to a T the era of time involving Revelation 13. And that you can't make that work with Amil. Which means that the 42 month reign of the beast can't be after the thousand years. You all better hope the false prophet is not human because no human can live for thousands of years. The point being, those in Revelation 20:4 martyred for not worshiping the beast, none of that is possible unless the false prophet was also involved in their martyrdom.

 

[Davidpt]

But John tells us they are souls with life and not dead. How can that be?

Unless you believe in soul sleep or something, or unless you believe in the death of the soul for some, that upon physical death their soul also dies, even the souls that go to hell upon death, even they are souls with life that are not dead. Therefore, your point is moot and proves absolutely zero.

 

[Davidpt]

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


Only someone with doctrinal bias could deny the following---neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands. None of that is possible unless it involves the false prophet, which then undeniably tells us that the time of the beast and fp per Revelation 13, it precedes satan's little season, not parallels it instead. Probably why Revelation 20:10 records that both the beast and the fp are already in the lof before satan too is cast into it. Meaning that nothing pertaining to Revelation 20:7-9 also involves the beast and fp. How could it? Verse 10 has them already in the LOF when satan is loosed. And so does John in chapter 19.

 

[WPM]

Unless you believe in soul sleep or something, or unless you believe in the death of the soul for some, that upon physical death their soul also dies, even the souls that go to hell upon death, even they are souls with life that are not dead. Therefore, your point is moot and proves absolutely zero.

Where do the souls of the dead redeemed go?

 

[WPM]

Only someone with doctrinal bias could deny the following---neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands. None of that is possible unless it involves the false prophet, which then undeniably tells us that the time of the beast and fp per Revelation 13, it precedes satan's little season, not parallels it instead. Probably why Revelation 20:10 records that both the beast and the fp are already in the lof before satan too is cast into it. Meaning that nothing pertaining to Revelation 20:7-9 also involves the beast and fp. How could it? Verse 10 has them already in the LOF when satan is loosed. And so does John in chapter 19.

Satan, the beast and the false prophet have been around from the beginning. They are demonic.

 

[Davidpt]

Where do the souls of the dead redeemed go?

Heaven, obviously. Yet that is beside the point since no soul dies upon physical death including souls of the wicked. Therefore, all souls are alive after physical death, even the souls of the wicked.

 

[WPM]

Heaven, obviously. Yet that is beside the point since no soul dies upon physical death including souls of the wicked. Therefore, all souls are alive after physical death, even the souls of the wicked.

And who has argued otherwise?

 

[Davidpt]

At what point does the second death no longer have power over someone? Surely, it doesn't have power over the dead in Christ whose souls are in heaven with Jesus right now.

I definitely agree with that since it would be plain silly not to. But even so, what about professed Christians that are still on this side of life, that haven't physically died yet? How can that be applied to every single one of them when not every single one of them will manage to remain saved in the end? IOW, how can the 2nd death remotely have no power over someone that falls away, thus not once saved always saved?

 

[rwb]

Unless you believe in soul sleep or something, or unless you believe in the death of the soul for some, that upon physical death their soul also dies, even the souls that go to hell upon death, even they are souls with life that are not dead. Therefore, your point is moot and proves absolutely zero.

The only means by which one is a living soul is by having life. Life is defined as a breath that is from God who is Spirit. It is the spirit within every living breathing creature that gives life. Life can be found in both the physical realm and the spiritual realm. When mankind is physically alive, they have a mortal body with breath of life, that is spirit, because there is not life without spirit. Scripture tells us it is the spirit that gives life, and the body profits nothing. (Jo 6:63; Gen 2:7) Mortal bodies are nothing but lumps of clay without spirit. That spirit according to Ecc 12:7 comes from God, and when the body dies, returns to God. While the mortal body of every living breathing creature returns to dust from where it came.

When one physically dies being in Christ, the spirit within still possesses eternal life through the Holy Spirit within. We read that when we have the Spirit sent from Christ, He shall never leave us, and be with us until we receive our promised inheritance which is our redeemed immortal & incorruptible body when the last trump sounds (Eph 1:12-14). Will the Spirit remain in a body that has become a lifeless corpse? Of course not! He will take our spirit to heaven where we shall not sleep, but shall continue to be a living soul, the spiritual body of Christ there, just as we, as the Church on earth had been the physical body of Christ on earth before death. (1Cor 12:27-28)

The only human spirits said to be in silence and darkness after physical death, and do not return to God a living soul are those who have not the Spirit from Christ within them giving them eternal life.

Throughout, especially the Revelation we read of life as living souls in heaven. Anyone promoting "soul sleep" seem not to be able to comprehend ETERNAL LIFE! The one who possesses eternal life when they have been born again through the Holy Spirit shall NEVER die even though all human flesh is destined to death.

 

[Davidpt]

And who has argued otherwise?

My issue here is mainly with @rwb in this case since I can't grasp what point he is making about disembodied souls living with Christ upon death. As if only the saved live on in a disembodied state upon death but the unsaved don't.

 

[rwb]

I definitely agree with that since it would be plain silly not to. But even so, what about professed Christians that are still on this side of life, that haven't physically died yet? How can that be applied to every single one of them when not every single one of them will manage to remain saved in the end? IOW, how can the 2nd death remotely have no power over someone that falls away, thus not once saved always saved?

Those of saving faith neither saved themselves, nor are they able to keep themselves saved. This power comes from the Holy Spirit within. Granted there are multitudes of people among believers who profess to have eternal life through Christ's Spirit. Will they manage to keep themselves saved unto the end without the power of God within them? It is the DEAD, not those who are spiritually alive through the Spirit in them that shall be called before the judgment throne to give account for the things found written in the books and the book of life. False professors of salvation will be among them because they and all who remain in unbelief have not overcome the second death by having part in the first resurrection that is the resurrection life of Christ.

Romans 5:8-11 (KJV) But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

1 Peter 1:3-5 (KJV) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I'm not certain what you are asking me to do here? I'll try to do what you ask once it is clear to me what you are asking me to do. For some reason it's going over my head at the moment.

We've been over this before multiple times, so it's amazing to me that you wouldn't know what I'm talking about. Though, I guess it's been awhile since we last went over this.

From what you've said in the past you agree with me that the 42 months/1260 days of Revelation 11 is the same 42 months of Revelation 13:5. Is that correct? If so, then you should see that the beast does not ascend from the bottomless pit until the 42 months/1260 days ends.

Revelation 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. 3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. 5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. 7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

When the beast is in the pit, it is not able to kill the two witnesses, but it can do that after it ascends from the pit when the 42 months/1260 days is over. So, how do you reconcile this with your understanding that the beast is loosed from the pit before or at the beginning of the 42 months instead of when the 42 months ends?

 

[rwb]

My issue here is mainly with @rwb in this case since I can't grasp what point he is making about disembodied souls living with Christ upon death. As if only the saved live on in a disembodied state upon death but the unsaved don't.

Living souls are alive in heaven through spirit and have no physical body. All spirits return to God when our mortal body dies. Since the first advent of Christ only the spirit, as living soul shall return to God in heaven. Those physically dying in unbelief are described as being as the beasts who die and succumb to silence and darkness, no longer having the breath of life.

Soul equates to all who are alive. The breath of life is spirit breathed into the body to give physical life. The body as complete living soul of every living breathing creature possesses body + spirit (breath of life) to be complete living soul on earth. The spirit within man of faith is not alive through breath of natural life as is our natural mortal body. The spirit becomes spiritually alive from death through the power of Christ's Spirit in them, and continues to be alive after the body dies, because the life we have through Christ is eternal and can never die. Our spiritual body being alive in heaven is still a living soul but without human form, we become as are the angels of God in heaven (Mt 22:30; Mk 12:25), because God is the God of the living, not of the DEAD!