Proof of Rapture before Tribulation

[dad]

Jesus said that the gates of hell could not prevail over the church. That does not mean many would not be killed or that there would not be persecution in some areas. Yes we can also interpret that this means the church is safe from death because we have eternal life. But obviously the meaning is special and important to the church. The believers of old before the church also had eternal life by believing Jesus would come one day. So Jesus promising that the forces of hell would never prevail over the church includes a special protection for our existence here on earth, to preach the gospel and etc.

During the tribulation, believers are broken as a power and public group and organization. They will be hunted and killed and not allowed to preach or even buy food etc. If the church were still here at that time the words of Jesus would be false and void.

That proves there has to be a gathering of the church together in the air before that time. It will be new believers who face these things and not the church.

 

[ewq1938]

Thos is poor logic and it contradicts scripture.

Here is the only passage about the rapture that actually uses the Greek word that means a rapture, Harpazo:

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.(second coming reference)
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (second coming reference) shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (second coming reference) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the dead in Christ)
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the rapture)

Here we see the second coming mentioned 3 times, then the resurrection and then the rapture. This proves the rapture is connected to the second coming. All that needs to be proven is when the second coming happens to know when the rapture happens.


Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


The second coming happens AFTER the GT is over, so the rapture happens post-Trib. Circumventing these two passages is to ignore the scriptural evidence of WHEN the rapture is going to happen.

 

[Douggg]

The second coming happens AFTER the GT is over, so the rapture happens post-Trib. Circumventing these two passages is to ignore the scriptural evidence of WHEN the rapture is going to happen.

Jesus's coming for the rapture/resurrection is not HIs Second Coming. At His Second Coming later, after the rapture/resurrection, Jesus will be returning to this earth, accompanied by the raptured/resurrected saints clothed in white linen (Revelation 19:8, Revelation 19:14).

The gathering unto the Lord of believers in 2Thessalonians2:1-2 is before the day of Christ (the day of the Lord) begins. The beginning of the day of the Lord is triggered by the Antichrist going into the temple, sitting, claiming to have achieved God-hood. Revealing himself to be the man of sin. In 2Thessalonians2:4.

2Thessalonians2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

 

[Keraz]

During the tribulation, believers are broken as a power and public group and organization. They will be hunted and killed and not allowed to preach or even buy food etc. If the church were still here at that time the words of Jesus would be false and void.

Rev 13:5-7 proves that Gods holy people; the Church, will be on earth during the 42 month period of 'beast' world control.
But the faithful Christians will be kept in a place of safety on earth; Revelation 12:14 and those Christians who violated the Covenant, Daniel 11:32, must remain under persecution. Rev 12:17

Jesus's coming for the rapture/resurrection is not HIs Second Coming. At His Second Coming later, after the rapture/resurrection, Jesus will be returning to this earth, accompanied by the raptured/resurrected saints clothed in white linen

This belief is untrue and unbiblical.
We humans never leave the earth, the place we were made to inhabit. The 'rapture to heaven', is a gross refusal to accept responsibility for the tasks the Lord has set for us.
Jesus made a plain and unequivocal statement: No on goes to heaven, except the One who came from there. John 3:13

 

[dad]

Rev 13:5-7 proves that Gods holy people; the Church, will be on earth during the 42 month period of 'beast' world control.

No. What would you call new believers that come to be after we are raptured? In the verses you cite it calls them saints.
Revelation 13:7
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

But the faithful Christians will be kept in a place of safety on earth; Revelation 12:14

Nothing to do with the church

and those Christians who violated the Covenant, Daniel 11:32, must remain under persecution. Rev 12:17

Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
The new believers in the tribulation. Not the long gone church

We humans never leave the earth, the place we were made to inhabit.

Utterly false. If we meet Jesus in the air and be where He is, as He promised, that is not staying on the ground/earth.

Jesus made a plain and unequivocal statement: No on goes to heaven, except the One who came from there. John 3:13

When Jesus spoke no man had ascended into heaven, that has ZERO to do with when He promised to return and how we would be where He is. No connection, even remotely. For someone to state it is the same, and do so in a self righteous and matter of absolute fact way is very telling.

 

[IndianaRob]

Jesus said that the gates of hell could not prevail over the church. That does not mean many would not be killed or that there would not be persecution in some areas. Yes we can also interpret that this means the church is safe from death because we have eternal life. But obviously the meaning is special and important to the church. The believers of old before the church also had eternal life by believing Jesus would come one day. So Jesus promising that the forces of hell would never prevail over the church includes a special protection for our existence here on earth, to preach the gospel and etc.

During the tribulation, believers are broken as a power and public group and organization. They will be hunted and killed and not allowed to preach or even buy food etc. If the church were still here at that time the words of Jesus would be false and void.

That proves there has to be a gathering of the church together in the air before that time. It will be new believers who face these things and not the church.

I wonder if the Christians murdered in China and Islamic countries would agree with this.

 

[dad]

I wonder if the Christians murdered in China and Islamic countries would agree with this.

Yes of course. Having martyrs does not affect it at all. Now imagine what happened in those countries multiplied 1000 times and in every country in the world. Add to that mandatory worship of the Satan man. Etc no comparison whatsoever.

 

[Keraz]

No. What would you call new believers that come to be after we are raptured?

What 'rapture and what new believers?
A rapture removal is never stated to happen.
Revelation 13:8 All the inhabitants of the earth, all those whose names are not Written in the Book of Life, will worship the 'beast'. No new converts, or only a very few; as decapitation is the penalty for not worshipping the beast.

Utterly false. If we meet Jesus in the air and be where He is, as He promised, that is not staying on the ground/earth.

You poor deceived sap, Jesus is on His way to Jerusalem: Zechariah 14:4, when those faithful Christians who remain; will rise to meet Him.

When Jesus spoke no man had ascended into heaven, that has ZERO to do with when He promised to return and how we would be where He is. No connection, even remotely. For someone to state it is the same, and do so in a self righteous and matter of absolute fact way is very telling.

In John 3:13, Jesus made a plain and simple statement.
You take it upon yourself to re-interpret it and what is worse, you exempt yourself from it.
To further your crime, you abuse those who point out your errors.

 

[dad]

What 'rapture and what new believers?

The gathering together in the air before the wrath of God. And of course there will be multitudes of people that come to faith after that.

Revelation 13:8 All the inhabitants of the earth, all those whose names are not Written in the Book of Life, will worship the 'beast'. No new converts, or only a very few; as decapitation is the penalty for not worshipping the beast.

Zero to do with the church/topic here

You poor deceived sap, Jesus is on His way to Jerusalem: Zechariah 14:4, when those faithful Christians who remain; will rise to meet Him.

No one goes into the air to go be with Him then. You are conflating times

In John 3:13, Jesus made a plain and simple statement.

Which was both true and irrelevant to the topic here. Jesus did say that He goes to the Father and that where He is we also will be, that He prepared there a place also for us. Scripture also tells us we will be gathered in the air, both dead believers and those who are alive. Up. Up. And Away.

 

[ewq1938]

Jesus's coming for the rapture/resurrection is not HIs Second Coming.

It is his one and only second coming.

 

[Keraz]

The gathering together in the air before the wrath of God. And of course there will be multitudes of people that come to faith after that.

Zero to do with the church/topic here

No one goes into the air to go be with Him then. You are conflating times

Which was both true and irrelevant to the topic here. Jesus did say that He goes to the Father and that where He is we also will be, that He prepared there a place also for us. Scripture also tells us we will be gathered in the air, both dead believers and those who are alive. Up. Up. And Away.

A complete litany of imaginative fables.
TOTALLY BEREFT OF ANY SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT.

 

[dad]

A complete litany of imaginative fables.
TOTALLY BEREFT OF ANY SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT.

Find a mirror because the reverse is true. There is no doubt there will be a gathering in the air of alive and dead believers to go up to be with Jesus. He promised we would be where He is. Guess where He is, and will be until after the tribulation? Heaven. Period. Guess who promised that the church would not be overcome by dark forces? Jesus. Guess who ARE overcome (most not spiritually, but physically) in that tribulation time? The believers. That means the believers of that time are not the church.

 

[Marty fox]

Jesus said that the gates of hell could not prevail over the church. That does not mean many would not be killed or that there would not be persecution in some areas. Yes we can also interpret that this means the church is safe from death because we have eternal life. But obviously the meaning is special and important to the church. The believers of old before the church also had eternal life by believing Jesus would come one day. So Jesus promising that the forces of hell would never prevail over the church includes a special protection for our existence here on earth, to preach the gospel and etc.

During the tribulation, believers are broken as a power and public group and organization. They will be hunted and killed and not allowed to preach or even buy food etc. If the church were still here at that time the words of Jesus would be false and void.

That proves there has to be a gathering of the church together in the air before that time. It will be new believers who face these things and not the church.

Not at all, it just proves that the church will always be persecuted but Jesus will always protect a remnant to continue to preach the gospel.

Its a promise that gives the church hope to persevere to so that our work isn't ivain.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Jesus said that the gates of hell could not prevail over the church. That does not mean many would not be killed or that there would not be persecution in some areas. Yes we can also interpret that this means the church is safe from death because we have eternal life. But obviously the meaning is special and important to the church. The believers of old before the church also had eternal life by believing Jesus would come one day. So Jesus promising that the forces of hell would never prevail over the church includes a special protection for our existence here on earth, to preach the gospel and etc.

During the tribulation, believers are broken as a power and public group and organization. They will be hunted and killed and not allowed to preach or even buy food etc. If the church were still here at that time the words of Jesus would be false and void.

That proves there has to be a gathering of the church together in the air before that time. It will be new believers who face these things and not the church.

This is one of the most ridiculous arguments I've seen. The church exists in both heaven and on earth with Jesus being its chief cornerstone (Ephesians 2:19-22). Even if every living believer was martyred it could not be said that the gates of hell have prevailed against the church since the church would still be alive and well in heaven. It's not a case of hell prevailing against a believer if he or she is killed. They then go to heaven afterwards, so the gates of hell certainly do not prevail against Christian martyrs!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Jesus's coming for the rapture/resurrection is not HIs Second Coming. At His Second Coming later, after the rapture/resurrection, Jesus will be returning to this earth, accompanied by the raptured/resurrected saints clothed in white linen (Revelation 19:8, Revelation 19:14).

Total nonsense. At Jesus's one and only future coming from heaven, He will be joined by the souls of the dead in Christ (1 Thess 4:14). They will be united with their resurrected, changed bodies at that point. NOWHERE does scrpiture teach that Jesus will come a second and third time from heaven in the future. That is ludicrous. Scripture only teaches that He will appear a second time (Hebrews 9:28) and He will come from heaven in the same way He ascended to heaven which was visibly and bodily (Acts 1:9-11).

The gathering unto the Lord of believers in 2Thessalonians2:1-2 is before the day of Christ (the day of the Lord) begins.

No, that is on the day of the Lord/Christ. We will be gathered to Him the same day He destroys His enemies. Paul taught that in 1 Thess 4:14-5:3 and here:

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Only extreme doctrinal bias can lead someone to believe that the day "when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe" is not the same day as our being gathered to Him.

The beginning of the day of the Lord is triggered by the Antichrist going into the temple, sitting, claiming to have achieved God-hood. Revealing himself to be the man of sin. In 2Thessalonians2:4.

Nonsense! The day of the Lord comes unexpectedly like a thief in the night bringing "sudden destruction" from which the Lord's enemies "shall not escape" (1 Thess 5:2-3). How does what you're describing here line up with this:

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Find a mirror because the reverse is true. There is no doubt there will be a gathering in the air of alive and dead believers to go up to be with Jesus. He promised we would be where He is. Guess where He is, and will be until after the tribulation? Heaven. Period.

Where is that taught in scripture?

Guess who promised that the church would not be overcome by dark forces?

Being martyred is not the same as being overcome by dark forces. Being overcome by dark forces would have to do with the church being overcome with false teaching, not being martyred.

Jesus. Guess who ARE overcome (most not spiritually, but physically) in that tribulation time? The believers. That means the believers of that time are not the church.

What? This is complete nonsense. There has been many in the church who has been physically persecuted and killed for the past almost 2,000 years, but somehow during a future time believers being martyred are not in the church? That is completely ridiculous.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No. What would you call new believers that come to be after we are raptured? In the verses you cite it calls them saints.
Revelation 13:7
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Are you saying that the term "saints" can't be used to refer to those who are in the church? If so, that is clearly false.

Romans 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:

2 Corinthians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Philippians 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:

Colossians 1:2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Nothing to do with the church

Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
The new believers in the tribulation. Not the long gone church

LOL. Ridiculous. You're trying to say that those "which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" are not in the church? Ludicrous.

Utterly false. If we meet Jesus in the air and be where He is, as He promised, that is not staying on the ground/earth.

Where He will be at that point is in the air. It doesn't say where we go from there. It indicates that He proceeds to destroy His enemies right after that and "they shall not escape" (1 Thess 5:2-3). If we were to be taken to heaven after that, why wouldn't we just be taken straight to heaven? What would be the point of meeting Him in the air in that case?

 

[dad]

Not at all, it just proves that the church will always be persecuted but Jesus will always protect a remnant to continue to preach the gospel.

Its a promise that gives the church hope to persevere to so that our work isn't ivain.

No. That could not fit. Being persecuted is something Jesus said would happen. Having the church wiped out as a body and unable to witness or live is NOT.

 

[dad]

This is one of the most ridiculous arguments I've seen. The church exists in both heaven and on earth with Jesus being its chief cornerstone (Ephesians 2:19-22).

Think about it. The church in heaven is not in need of protection. The verse obviously applied to earth.

Even if every living believer was martyred it could not be said that the gates of hell have prevailed against the church since the church would still be alive and well in heaven.

False. Once the power of a holy people is scattered and they cannot do what they were set up to do, preach the good news to mankind, then the world prevails against them.

It's not a case of hell prevailing against a believer if he or she is killed.

No one said it was. The church is not 'a believer'.

They then go to heaven afterwards, so the gates of hell certainly do not prevail against Christian martyrs!

That is ignoring the power and spirit of the promise and spiritualizing it away. Unbelief, in other words.

 

[dad]

Where is that taught in scripture?

? Where is the gathering together in the air of both dead and alive believers? Seriously?

Being martyred is not the same as being overcome by dark forces.

The church will never be martyred if the promise is true. Millions might be. However the forces of hell are not given permission to overcome the church ever. Period. Bank on it.

Being overcome by dark forces would have to do with the church being overcome with false teaching, not being martyred.

Whatever way you want to imagine it, not going to happen. God says so. Not the body as a whole, sorry.

What? This is complete nonsense. There has been many in the church who has been physically persecuted and killed for the past almost 2,000 years,

Total strawman and this was already addressed several times. Debate honestly if you feel compelled to post at all.

but somehow during a future time believers being martyred are not in the church? That is completely ridiculous.

If we are gone, praytell how would anyone prevail over us in heaven?