When are the dead and living in Christ caught up to the Lord?

[The Light]

Except for the fact that 42 months later, after Satan's empire, the 7 vials are poured out. What are they called?

"And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth."

It's all over at the 7th trumpet.

Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The millennial kingdom is set up when the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. The wrath of God is over. There is no 42 months of Satan's empire. That is all past when The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord,

You need to understand what you are reading.............common sense.

This comes after Revelation 13.

It's all over at the 7th trumpet. The millennial kingdom will begin.

When you are reading Revelation 13 and 14 you are back in the 1st six seals.

 

[The Light]

The Day of the Lord is the events that last 1,000 years after the Second Coming. The Day of the Lord that has not happened yet.

The day of the Lord is a dreadful day, a day of darkness and destruction.

Malachi 4
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:

Isaiah 13
6 Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.

Isaiah 13
9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

Joel 1
15 Alas for the day! for the day of the Lord is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.

Joel 2
11 And the Lord shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

Joel 5
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

Joel 3
14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision.

Amos 5
20 Shall not the day of the Lord be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?

There are plenty of other verses if you are not convinced that the day of the Lord is not the 1000-year millennial kingdom.

You said the length of time is smack dab in the middle of Adam's punishment.

There was a Day of the Lord before Adam was placed in the Garden of Eden, and 6,000 years of punishment ends with another Day of the Lord Sabbath. Adam's punishment is in the middle of two Days of the Lord.

What is it with you and Adam? Do you have any scripture to support these claims?

 

[The Light]

You offered no Scripture either. Matthew 13 tells us about the final harvest of the 7 Thunders. Jesus and the angels will be present on the earth.

He has seen the scripture so many times he wants to vomit. It is one of the many things that shows his error.

Here is what it says about the 7 thunders. This has nothing to do with the final harvest.

Revelation 10
2 And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth,

3 And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.

4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.

The things the seven thunders uttered are sealed up and not written. Matthew 13 has nothing to do with the 7 thunders.

 

[Timtofly]

The word here for “many” in the original Hebrew (rab) actually means: the abundance, referring to quantity, size, age, number, rank, quality. In the sense it is used here it includes everyone that is in the grave. Namely: “the abundance of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake.”

The all-inclusive resurrection that the Old Testament prophet foresaw is confirmed in the New Testament writings. "All" indeed the dead come forth when Jesus comes. The abundance of the dead are released on that great climatic day.

Your interpretation is still wrong. In Matthew 27, we see the OT redeemed came out of Abraham's bosom, all of them, then, even though many were seen in Jerusalem. So not all were seen in Jerusalem, but only those buried there. So they all ascended like the church will ascend at the Second Coming. The difference is that they were translated out of death at the Cross, and ascended 3 days later on Sunday morning.

So, "many" that Daniel mentioned were already resurrected at the Cross and could not be the all at Daniel's time, nor the many at the end of the Millennial Kingdom of Christ.

Daniel would be lying like amil fib, that all the dead are still waiting. All the dead are not still waiting, as many were given the first resurrection at the Cross, and all of them are in Paradise, even Lazarus.

Amil want to claim that all the dead since Abel are yet to be resurrected. Nope, only many of the dead will stand as dead at the GWT. Some of them will be redeemed at that point and receive the second birth, so they can also be given the first resurrection. But they have yet to be given the second birth. All who have the second birth are all physically already in Paradise.

So Daniel was correct in saying "many", because all the dead will not be resurrected at the same time.

Many will have already been in the LOF as well, over a thousand years before the rest of the dead are tossed into the LOF.

 

[Timtofly]

If we have no part in the resurrection life of Christ (who is the FIRST RESURRECTION) before we physically die, and we know that physical flesh and blood shall not inherit the Kingdom of God, how are the saints alive in heaven after physical death? It's true those who physically die in Christ, do go to heaven ALIVE after death. What body do they ascend to heaven in, since their flesh returns to dust?

Paul says when our body (natural/physical) dies, it is raised a spiritual body, because mankind has both a natural body of flesh & bone, and a spiritual body within. That within mankind that is spirit will either return to God eternally alive through the Spirit of Christ within. or it will return to God in what Scripture tells us is darkness and silence, without life.

1 Corinthians 15:44 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The first resurrection that man MUST have part in before physical death comes through the Spirit of Christ in us when we are born again. That's what Paul means when he writes that mankind apart from Christ is "dead in trespasses and sins." For that reason, Christ says, "Ye must be born again!" Once we are born again through Christ's Spirit in us, that spiritual part within man has everlasting/eternal life. Even though our physical body is destined to die, our spirit through the Holy Spirit within shall NEVER die. That's why as a spiritual body man of faith ascends to heaven after our body breathes its last.

Then in the hour coming when the last trumpet sounds, the spiritual body in heaven shall return with the Lord to give our resurrected body immortal & incorruptible life that is once again a whole person God created mankind to be.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 (KJV) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Natural does not mean physical. Natural means "of Adam". Spiritual in this case means "of God". There is no such thing as a physical body made up of "spirit", nor an immortal body. This spirit body, and immortal body are pagan, human constructs, not found in Scripture. Physical is not the opposite of spiritual when it comes to the identity of a human. A human is a soul in a physical body, in a spirit covering of light. As a son of God we will shine like the stars and the sun, when the robe of white, our spirit, is put on.

Jesus had on both a permanent incorruptible physical body, and a spirit, but chose not to reveal His spirit, except to 3 people on the mount of Transfiguration. The spirit is not air in us, nor "a body". The spirit is only referenced once as the robe of white in Revelation 6. Another person's spirit or demonized spirit may possess a person, but that is not the same as putting on the robe of white.

 

[Timtofly]

I'm not changing anything. The Greek word can mean "firstfruits" or "firstfruit". The Bible wasn't written in English. But, the point is that it very specifically refers to Jesus Himself as being the firstfruit or firstfruits of them that slept and it does not say that them that slept are the firstfruits. You are trying to change that, which is shameful.

All you are saying is Jesus needed redemption, because that was the point of the topic and subject.

You deny Paul is talking about being made alive:

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits.

This cannot be the action on Jesus, but the firstfruits made alive at the Cross. Jesus had no need. Jesus was the one whi changed the course of human history at that point in time.

Death was to be swallowed up into life, from that moment on. That applied to humans, not solely Jesus as you interpret those verses.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

All you are saying is Jesus needed redemption, because that was the point of the topic and subject.

Are you even capable of saying anything that makes any sense? I can't recall you ever saying anything but complete nonsense. Jesus never needed redemption. Are you kidding? I would never say such a stupid thing as that. Where do you get the nonsense that runs rampant in your head from?

You deny Paul is talking about being made alive:

I do not. Any other lies like you'd like to tell?

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits.

This cannot be the action on Jesus, but the firstfruits made alive at the Cross. Jesus had no need. Jesus was the one whi changed the course of human history at that point in time.

Why did you not include verse 20 for context? How convenient.

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

This does NOT say "them that slept" are the firstfruits, it says Christ Himself rose from the dead and, as a result, became the firstfruits....of them that slept. That means Christ's resurrection itself was the first in order when Paul gives the order of resurrections in 1 Cor 15:23. Next in order are those who are Christ's at His second coming.

Death was to be swallowed up into life, from that moment on. That applied to humans, not solely Jesus as you interpret those verses.

You have no idea of what you're talking about. Absolutely none.

 

[covenantee]

Are you even capable of saying anything that makes any sense? I can't recall you ever saying anything but complete nonsense. Jesus never needed redemption. Are you kidding? I would never say such a stupid thing as that. Where do you get the nonsense that runs rampant in your head from?


I do not. Any other lies like you'd like to tell?


Why did you not include verse 20 for context? How convenient.

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

This does NOT say "them that slept" are the firstfruits, it says Christ Himself rose from the dead and, as a result, became the firstfruits....of them that slept. That means Christ's resurrection itself was the first in order when Paul gives the order of resurrections in 1 Cor 15:23. Next in order are those who are Christ's at His second coming.


You have no idea of what you're talking about. Absolutely none.

He gets more hallucinatory by the post. Undoubtedly holds the record for the number of straw men conjured on this forum.

 

[Timtofly]

…but this can’t possibly be right. Here’s why—Satan’s number is 666, right?

No. That is the number of Adamkind.

for it is the number of a man:

The verse says "of a man". That is all of humankind from Adam.

 

[WPM]

It's all over at the 7th trumpet.

Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The millennial kingdom is set up when the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord. The wrath of God is over. There is no 42 months of Satan's empire. That is all past when The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord,

You need to understand what you are reading.............common sense.


It's all over at the 7th trumpet. The millennial kingdom will begin.

When you are reading Revelation 13 and 14 you are back in the 1st six seals.

Really? Why then is your millennial kingdom overrun with billions of wicked?

 

[WPM]

The day of the Lord is a dreadful day, a day of darkness and destruction.

Malachi 4
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:

Isaiah 13
6 Howl ye; for the day of the Lord is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.

Isaiah 13
9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

Joel 1
15 Alas for the day! for the day of the Lord is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.

Joel 2
11 And the Lord shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

Joel 5
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

Joel 3
14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision.

Amos 5
20 Shall not the day of the Lord be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?

There are plenty of other verses if you are not convinced that the day of the Lord is not the 1000-year millennial kingdom.



What is it with you and Adam? Do you have any scripture to support these claims?

Exactly. No one survives to enter your imaginary tribulation period or future millennium.

 

[The Light]

Exactly. No one survives to enter your imaginary tribulation period or future millennium.

The tribulation of those days is over before the 6 seal is opened and if you think it is imaginary you don't believe the Word of God.

Why do you have the Church going through the wrath of God? Which is the Day of the Lord.

 

[Timtofly]

They will not survive to face an Antichrist and period of tribulation after an imaginary pre-trib rapture as you falsely imagine.

The tribulation is only about Israel. They are the 10 virgins, not the church. The sheep and goats are only about Israel, not the judgment of saved and lost. You have replaced Israel in Matthew 25 and have inserted the church into a location and time the church will not even be on the earth.

The church is removed before Israel is judged. The judgment on Israel is the Great Tribulation. That judgment happens between the 7th Seal and the 1st Thunder. The first 6 Trumpets are about Israel, and this time of Jacob's trouble, that has never happened that way, nor will ever happen again. Jesus and the angels will be on the earth during this time. That is why the Second Coming itself is prior to the Great Tribulation.

The 5 wise virgins represent Israel who were born from above with the second birth. They left in the rapture. The foolish virgins are the majority of religious Israel, thinking they are serving God. Then the sheep and goats represent God's judgment on all of Israel alive at that time. Only a third will come through the fire, and be sheep. And yes, all of the goats and foolish virgins will be tossed alive into the LOF, even before the 7 Thunders happen and the 7th Trumpet, that declares Jesus as now the King of the earth.

You have replaced Israel with the church, and you have placed the church into Jacob's trouble where the church does not belong. When Jesus comes to the Mount of Olives, with all His angels, that is when Jacob's trouble / the GT starts. The church will not be on the earth at all after the Second Coming to the Mount of Olives. But you say that all happened in the 1st century.

 

[3 Resurrections]

You really need to ADMIT that last part "days of vengeance" is about the END of this present world, which is documented in God's Word to happen on the last day of this world with the "day of the Lord" events. That is about Christ's 2nd coming at the very end of this world.

Christ's second coming to the Mount of Olives (as presented in Zechariah 14:4-5) does NOT take place at the end of all human history on this planet. We know that it can't possibly be that, because Zechariah 14:16 goes on to describe a "year to year" progress of history continuing even AFTER Christ's second coming.

What we are presently waiting for (in that "year to year" period of human history) is Christ's THIRD coming at the culmination of fallen mankind's history on this planet in our future. And yes, as you mentioned, the past AD 70 judgment of the Jews and Jerusalem could serve as a "pattern" of the judgment to come in our future at Christ's future return. Except that will be His THIRD coming - not His second coming.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Really? Why then is your millennial kingdom overrun with billions of wicked?

Exactly. And it looks like the wrath of God is not over at the second coming as he said because, according to the premil doctrine he believes in, he has Revelation 20:9, which describes God's wrath coming down upon those who number "as the sand of the sea", occurring 1,000+ years later.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The tribulation of those days is over before the 6 seal is opened and if you think it is imaginary you don't believe the Word of God.

Why do you have the Church going through the wrath of God? Which is the Day of the Lord.

Where did he say he has the church going through the wrath of God? Show me. Does he claim that the church will go through the "sudden destruction" from which unbelievers "shall not escape" on the day of the Lord (1 Thess 5:2-3)? Does he claim that the church will be on the earth when fire is coming down on the entire earth on the day of the Lord, as Peter described (2 Peter 3:10-12)? I'm sure he didn't. So, what is your excuse for making false accusations like this?

 

[Timtofly]

You make the mistake of reading everything in Daniel and Revelation chronologically when not everything in those books is in chronological order. That's not how Apocalyptic writing works.

Where is the Ancient of days located when the Son of man comes to Him and is brought before Him? On earth? Or in heaven?

Do you read Matthew 24 chronologically?

Why?

Why not change that chapter as well?

 

[Timtofly]

Do you understand that spiritual bodies are immortal?

Not found in Scripture once. You demand the millennium be found other places than Revelation 20, yet the term "immortal body" is not found one time in Scripture.

 

[Timtofly]

There isn't one, of course. Premils always have to invent this imaginary third group which contradicts many scriptures. Jesus put all people into two groups. He said "He that is not with me is against me" (Matt 12:30). Every person is either with or against Christ. Saved or lost. That's two groups. That's why He talked about wheat and tares, good fish and bad fish, sheep and goats, just and unjust, they that have done good and they that have done evil. There is no third group.

There is a third group. You are not born a believer at physical birth.

You have to deny God to be eternally lost.

The third group are those undecided sitting on the proverbial fence.

There are some who are neither for Jesus, nor against Jesus. They have never been introduced to Jesus to decide either way.

In the example of the wheat and tares / sheep and goats there is a third group. The church is the third group. You know that Israel that is not Israel, that you call Israel? Those of the second birth will not even be on the earth when the sheep and goats and wheat and tares are harvested.

Do you think the second birth is based on good works?

The sheep are granted life based on their works, not by grace through faith.

"For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?"

Show me where the second birth and salvation by grace through faith is found in those verses.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"

Ephesians 2:8

Those sheep were clueless and had to ask about their redemption. Do you put yourself in that clueless position? At the rapture, are you going to ask why are you being raptured?

 

[Timtofly]

Definition of the word incorruptible: not subject to death or decay; everlasting.

Explain how an incorruptible body can possibly not be immortal.

Because pagan humans use that term "immortal", and that word is only found once in Scripture. The verse is not describing humans.

1 Timothy 1:17

Weird how you say humans are not the firstfruits in this verse:

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits."

But you say many humans will have an immortal body, which is not found once in Scripture. Humans cannot be firstfruits, but can be immortal, as you interpret things?