The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[Spiritual Israelite]

Matthew 21:43–44 shows the kingdom being taken from natural Israel and given to the New Testament Church. Nowhere does it say that the kingdom will then be taken from the New Testament Church and given back to national Israel. Pretribbers teach that but they are unable (like you) to bring anything to the table to prove it.

We see a significant move from the Old Testament period to the New Testament period:

· From the shadow and type to the substance and reality
· From the imperfect to the perfect
· From the inadequate to the all-sufficient.
· From the physical to the spiritual
· From the external to the internal
· From the natural to the supernatural
· From the temporary to the eternal
· From the earthly to the heavenly
· From the national to the international
· From the conditional to the unconditional

We are definitely not going back to that which was abolished, ineffective and unsatisfactory.

Natural Israel, today, have not possessed the land promised unto their father. They have only possessed a very small part. Can I remind you of the territory? God outlined the geographical boundaries of the ‘land promise’ to Abraham, saying, “Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the River Euphrates” (Genesis 15:18).

In this New Testament dispensation it does matter anyway, it is spiritual territory that matters for the people of God - the Church (the only vehicle God has to work and operate through), which includes the whole world.

It is up to natural Israel to enter into the new covenant and take the whole world for Christ. Jesus said in Matt 24:14, "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”

Anyway, there are no physical territorial promises in the New Testament, only spiritual!!!

Exactly. After the tremendous progress that was made because of Christ's death and resurrection, which ushered in the better new covenant (Heb 8:6-7), and the subsequent preaching of the gospel that shined light on the entire world, premils expect things to regress when Christ returns, thereby wiping out all of the things that Christ's death and resurrection and the preaching of the gospel have accomplished.

Christ's "once for all" sacrifice made the old covenant animal sacrifices and offerings obsolete, but many premils expect animal sacrifices to be reinstated when He returns. As if He could possibly agree to such nonsense that would be a complete slap in His face and an insult to what He accomplished! No chance of that. His shed blood and sacrifice also brought Jew and Gentile believers together as one, but premils think they will be divided again when Jesus returns. Another slap in His face! As if what He accomplished by way of His death and resurrection only brought about temporary change. Ridiculous! He made animal sacrifices obsolete and brought Jew and Gentile believers together as one FOREVER!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Of course. Don't you?

Of course he doesn't and no one who actually reads Revelation 14 carefully thinks it is portraying an earthly scene rather than a heavenly scene. It talks about the 144,000 being "before the throne of God" (Rev 14:5) and having been redeemed "from the earth" (Rev 14:3). The throne of God is in heaven and if they are redeemed "FROM the earth" then they are not on earth.

 

[rwb]

The problem is more fundamental than you might initially expect. Before engaging in a meaningful dialogue about the topic, we need to establish a common frame of reference and a shared set of assumptions.

If we learn anything from this thread, we learn that.

For example, before anyone presents evidence from the Old Testament prophets, both parties must agree that the Old Testament prophets are making predictions about actual events that will happen in the future. If both parties agree on this assumption, then they can examine the scriptures together and have a meaningful dialogue. However, if one party believes that the Old Testament prophets must be interpreted based on a presupposed New Testament understanding, to which the other party does not agree, then no meaningful dialogue can take place.

You can make all the assumptions you wish, in fact you usually do! While you're busy making assumptions without biblical proof texts, I'll continue to prove what I allege as biblical using the Word of God and not my opinions, or assumptions! It's impossible not to notice how the Amils on this thread always support from the Scripture what they believe. Why is it that Premils think they can come with opinion and assumptions without biblical support, and we should believe what you say? It's impossible to have meaningful dialogue in a Bible Forum without using the Bible! When will you Premils learn that we are not interested in what you wish, think, hope, assume, or guess when you show NOTHING from the Bible to prove?

 

[rwb]

Here's a hypothetical analogy that I hope will clarify my position.

Suppose people are constructing homes near a dangerous section of the river, requiring frequent assistance from firefighters and other first responders. Does the fact that people are being rescued from the river mean that the river is no longer dangerous? Similarly, does the fact that people are being saved from the domain of darkness into the kingdom of light indicate that the domain of darkness no longer exists?

The fact that the domain of darkness continues is evidence that Satan is not yet bound.

Hypothetical analogy is a good way to define what you imagine! Because clearly you have nothing from the Bible to prove your hypothetical analogy!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You can make all the assumptions you wish, in fact you usually do! While you're busy making assumptions without biblical proof texts, I'll continue to prove what I allege as biblical using the Word of God and not my opinions, or assumptions! It's impossible not to notice how the Amils on this thread always support from the Scripture what they believe. Why is it that Premils think they can come with opinion and assumptions without biblical support, and we should believe what you say? It's impossible to have meaningful dialogue in a Bible Forum without using the Bible! When will you Premils learn that we are not interested in what you wish, think, hope, assume, or guess when you show NOTHING from the Bible to prove?

Exactly! Trying to get them to actually exegete scripture seems impossible. They just won't do it. They know that scripture does not support their doctrine once you actually take a closer look at what it actually teaches, so they avoid exegeting scripture at all costs.

 

[WPM]

Isaiah 11:9-10, in particular, refers to the New Testament era, which is what Paul applied it to here:

Romans 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: 9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name. 10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people. 11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people. 12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

Did that mean all Gentiles would be enlightened?

 

[IndianaRob]

Aw, I'll need some scriptures with that to even consider it.

We’ll Daniel 9 is the best proof but most people have been duped into believing 70 weeks is 490 years instead of 70 weeks so that the commandment is to rebuild earthly Jerusalem instead of to build heavenly Jerusalem.

 

[rwb]

Of course he doesn't and no one who actually reads Revelation 14 carefully thinks it is portraying an earthly scene rather than a heavenly scene. It talks about the 144,000 being "before the throne of God" (Rev 14:5) and having been redeemed "from the earth" (Rev 14:3). The throne of God is in heaven and if they are redeemed "FROM the earth" then they are not on earth.

We may as well be talking to the wall!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Here's a hypothetical analogy that I hope will clarify my position.

Suppose people are constructing homes near a dangerous section of the river, requiring frequent assistance from firefighters and other first responders. Does the fact that people are being rescued from the river mean that the river is no longer dangerous? Similarly, does the fact that people are being saved from the domain of darkness into the kingdom of light indicate that the domain of darkness no longer exists?

The fact that the domain of darkness continues is evidence that Satan is not yet bound.

That analogy does not apply to what Satan's binding entails.

The following describes Satan being bound (assuming you understand that the strong man represents Satan):

Matthew 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. 29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

So, did Jesus binding the strong man, Satan, and spoiling his house result in complete elimination of the domain of darkness as you think has to be the case for Satan to be bound?

 

[WPM]

Here's a hypothetical analogy that I hope will clarify my position.

Suppose people are constructing homes near a dangerous section of the river, requiring frequent assistance from firefighters and other first responders. Does the fact that people are being rescued from the river mean that the river is no longer dangerous? Similarly, does the fact that people are being saved from the domain of darkness into the kingdom of light indicate that the domain of darkness no longer exists?

That sums up the substance of your argument.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

We may as well be talking to the wall!

Agree. I think we'd get a better and more convincing response from the wall.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Did that mean all Gentiles would be enlightened?

Nope. But, that's what premils think that means.

OK then, so you have not presented one millennial passage yet. The "last days" passages are not future millennial passages and the "new heavens and new earth" passages are not future millennial passages. We are in the "last days" now and the "new heavens and the new earth" arrive after the millennium. Check out Revelation and multiple other Scripture for that.

Who are you talking to here exactly? You replied to my post, but I think you were intending to say this to someone else.

 

[WPM]

Maybe watching " nefarious " will help.
Satan is the god of this world.
Death has been defeated.
Sickness defeated.
Yet there is rampant increases in the devils influence.
...even though both are decisively defeated.

The elephant in the room is that we got pitched the keys to the kingdom and all authority has been ascribed to the church.
If we don't take authority....the enemy has free reign.

The Church sits clueless, obsessing over theories of baseball while the ones on the field are doing the art of the game.

Not perfectly ,but out there trying ,getting dirty and hurt , while being eloquently and "masterfully" critiqued by " experts" warming the bench that can't even catch a underhanded slow ball.
.....but boy can they talk a bunch of theory and nonsense!

You can speak for yourself; but not of my world friend.

He is the god of this world, not the world of believers. He rules in their realm, not ours. Satan reigns over the wicked world out there. 1 John 4:4 explains it well: "Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world."

I can assure you he is not in control of my world. Christians are not of the world, they are of the true believing blood-bought Church!!! We are in the world but not of this world. Jesus said in John 15:19, "If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you."

God warns in I John 2:15, “Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.”

James 4:4 agrees, saying, “know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.”

• The god of this world is Satan.
• The God of the Church is Yahweh.

The world is under the control of the devil and is completely in wickedness. The Church is NOT of this world – it is holy and separated unto God – as His purchased possession. Christ rules as king over all principalities and powers today since the first resurrection.

 

[IndianaRob]

Reading Zechariah 14 does not look anything like what Premillennialists try to portray. Quite the opposite! It is a debacle. By the way, do you also believe in the restoration of animal sacrifices in your millennium?

It doesn’t look anything like amils or preterist try to portray either because both groups ignore verses that don’t line up with their belief system.

Think of it like this. The Old Testament uses shadows to represent a heavenly concept. You have to look at a shadow from multiple angles to get the complete picture.

No I don’t believe in animal sacrifices, the millennium is now for those who chose to enter in.

 

[WPM]

Nope. But, that's what premils think that means.


Who are you talking to here exactly? You replied to my post, but I think you were intending to say this to someone else.

Oops. Yes. Sorry bro. Too many moving parts. Sorry. LOL.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Oops. Yes. Sorry bro. Too many moving parts. Sorry. LOL.

LOL. I thought maybe you were suddenly turning on me for some reason (not really...I knew you didn't realize you were talking to me).

 

[WPM]

I can give you the scriptures but I can't understand it for you. It's in Isaiah, Jerimiah and Ezekial. It's really very clear....??

You will not quote the OT passages because they do not say what do you say they do. They make no mention of your imaginary future millennium. You're twisting Scripture, and I suspect you know what.

 

[WPM]

LOL. I thought maybe you were suddenly turning on me for some reason (not really...I knew you didn't realize you were talking to me).

Not so bro! LOL. Your posts are potent!

They are avoiding post after post of yours and other Amils. They have nothing. The reader can see that.

 

[Freedm]

2 Peter 3:3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

You are trying to tell me that 2 Peter 3:6 is talking about a flood of Roman armies overcoming the city of Jerusalem?

Um... no, 2 Peter 3:6 is talking about the flood waters that destroyed the world. He's not talking about the end of the age. That's kind of weird that you would bring that up. I think Daniel 9:26 is a better reference: The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed.

Are you trying to tell me that Daniel 9:26 is talking about a flood of water?

 

[Freedm]

Goodness gracious, you are trying to make scripture say whatever you want it to say. This is ridiculous.

You seem like a rather closed minded person. Has anybody ever told you that? I bet your wife has told you that. Be honest.