The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[WPM]

I can understand why you might think that, since you expect everyone to find passages that use the wording you anticipate.

The OT prophets predict a time when God brings his people back to the land, circumcises their hearts, and causes them to keep his commandments. For his part, he also promises to bring Israel's enemies against her and defeat them while the nations watch.

Amillennialism doesn't believe the OT prophets spoke about actual events and conditions, choosing to "spiritualize" the OT prophetic word to suit the Amillennial view.

Premillennialism believes that the Old Testament prophets spoke about actual events. It recognizes Revelation 20 as a brief summary of the age when Israel will have control over the earth and Jesus will rule over the nations with an iron rod.

Matthew 21:43–44 shows the kingdom being taken from natural Israel and given to the New Testament Church. Nowhere does it say that the kingdom will then be taken from the New Testament Church and given back to national Israel. Pretribbers teach that but they are unable (like you) to bring anything to the table to prove it.

We see a significant move from the Old Testament period to the New Testament period:

· From the shadow and type to the substance and reality
· From the imperfect to the perfect
· From the inadequate to the all-sufficient.
· From the physical to the spiritual
· From the external to the internal
· From the natural to the supernatural
· From the temporary to the eternal
· From the earthly to the heavenly
· From the national to the international
· From the conditional to the unconditional

We are definitely not going back to that which was abolished, ineffective and unsatisfactory.

Natural Israel, today, have not possessed the land promised unto their father. They have only possessed a very small part. Can I remind you of the territory? God outlined the geographical boundaries of the ‘land promise’ to Abraham, saying, “Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the River Euphrates” (Genesis 15:18).

In this New Testament dispensation it does matter anyway, it is spiritual territory that matters for the people of God - the Church (the only vehicle God has to work and operate through), which includes the whole world.

It is up to natural Israel to enter into the new covenant and take the whole world for Christ. Jesus said in Matt 24:14, "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”

Anyway, there are no physical territorial promises in the New Testament, only spiritual!!!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The 7 trumpets parallel Revelation 20. It involves the same general unfolding of events, only from a slightly different camera view, zooming in on different characters. It culminates in the release of Satan from the bottomless pit near the end, a final uprising for battle, and then Christ appears in majesty and glory to rescue the righteous, destroy the wicked, remove this current fallen creation, and usher in eternity.

Revelation 9:1-5 gives us an insight into the bottomless pit prior to the return of the Lord (the last trumpet). In fact, the scene appears at the time of the 5th trumpet (obviously before the last trump): “And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.”

Here we have the opening of the abyss with a key before the second coming. Obviously, the place was locked up previously so that those inside couldn’t leave. Now please consider: this is evidence that demons are in the pit before the second coming, but are released for a season at the end to do their damage.

Revelation 9:10-11 significantly adds: “they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months. And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.”

Here we have a king reigning over them called “Abaddon” and “Apollyon.” Here is proof and corroboration that Satan is located in the abyss before the second coming not after it as Premils claim.

Satan is actually a king that has a throne. He carries authority and kingship over the kingdom of darkness. We see reference to that in Revelation 2:13 where it says, “I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat [Gr. thronos] is.” This statement did not in any way limit the throne of Satan to the city of Pergamos. Now, of course, the devil is not a physical being, so he does not have to sit upon a physical throne. This is basically a symbol speaking of Satan’s dominion over that particular city. Revelation 13:2 also refers to this, saying “the dragon gave him (the beast) his power, and his seat [Gr. thronos], and great authority.” Satan’s throne is not limited to one geographic city or nation. It is seen where lives submit to his lies and influence and implement his will.

Premils have no choice but to deny that Abaddon/Apollyon is another name for Satan because they know that if it is referring to Satan, then it's indicating that he will be loosed at the fifth trumpet BEFORE Christ's second coming. Revelation 9 is STRONG evidence in favor of Amillennialism.

If the locusts symbolically represent fallen angels in the bottomless pit, as I believe they clearly do since their king is an angel (Rev 9:11), then who else do fallen angels have as their king besides Satan? The rest of the fallen angels besides Satan are called "his angels" in scripture (Revelation 12:9, Matthew 25:41). He is their king and their leader. So, Abaddon/Apollyon has to be Satan. The name Abaddon/Apollyon means "destroyer" which describes one of the character traits of Satan.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

 

[WPM]

What is cuckoo is believing there shall be peace on THIS earth for one thousand years! Prove what you allege!

Exactly! They cannot find that in Revelation 20. They have to misrepresent OT passages that make no mention of a future millennium.

 

[CadyandZoe]

It would be refreshing for you to prove what you allege, but the problem for you is that there is not proof for what you allege!

The problem is more fundamental than you might initially expect. Before engaging in a meaningful dialogue about the topic, we need to establish a common frame of reference and a shared set of assumptions.

If we learn anything from this thread, we learn that.

For example, before anyone presents evidence from the Old Testament prophets, both parties must agree that the Old Testament prophets are making predictions about actual events that will happen in the future. If both parties agree on this assumption, then they can examine the scriptures together and have a meaningful dialogue. However, if one party believes that the Old Testament prophets must be interpreted based on a presupposed New Testament understanding, to which the other party does not agree, then no meaningful dialogue can take place.

 

[CadyandZoe]

According to Scripture Satan is bound that he should deceive the nations no longer. If he is not presently bound how are so many from all the nations of the world no longer deceived by him and have turned to Christ for everlasting life?

Here's a hypothetical analogy that I hope will clarify my position.

Suppose people are constructing homes near a dangerous section of the river, requiring frequent assistance from firefighters and other first responders. Does the fact that people are being rescued from the river mean that the river is no longer dangerous? Similarly, does the fact that people are being saved from the domain of darkness into the kingdom of light indicate that the domain of darkness no longer exists?

The fact that the domain of darkness continues is evidence that Satan is not yet bound.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Isaiah 2:2-4 says, speaking of the Lord’s first Advent, “And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."

Micah 4:1-3 parallels this teaching, saying, “in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it. And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.”

Premils are always thinking natural, physical, temporal and carnal. Amils see the movement away from the Old Testament shadow, picture and type reality to the New Testament spiritual substance, reality and fulfilment. Christ was always redirecting our eyes away from the natural to the spiritual, from the earthly to the heavenly, from the temporal to the eternal and from the visible to the invisible. The natural man is captivated with the natural, the earthly and the temporal the heavenly man is captivated with the supernatural, the heavenly and the eternal.

The old temporal earthly kingdom of Israel was merely a type of the new spiritual heavenly eternal kingdom that Christ was going to introduce at His first Advent. The whole old covenant structure was always going to be superseded by a better system. As you get into the New Testament you quickly realise that physical Jerusalem is no longer considered true Zion (or Sion). Under the new covenant, Zion is heavenly, spiritual and eternal not earthly, physical and temporal. The Old Testament was simply an imperfect type of the real.

These passages are telling us that Messiah would come and bring peace to His subjects. This would be performed through the Word of God going out of Zion to all nations in these last days. Christ did this. The Gentiles are now coming to the truth of God by their millions. Isaiah receives a pictorial vision of the approaching new covenant order, and the last days. It is given in a metaphorical style describing the incredible peace and reconciliation that comes through the success of the Gospel. The mountain of the Lord refers to the kingdom introduced by Christ. There is no more war there. Mountains in Scripture prophetically speak of kingdoms. That is the case in Isaiah 2 and Malachi 4. The peace described came with the earthly ministry of Christ.

God urges His people throughout the nations in the last days to stream to His holy mountain. This is obviously talking about an intimate spiritual place with Him, not a geographical location.

Psalm 24:3-4: “Who shall ascend into the hill (or mountain) of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place? He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.”

Isaiah 11:9-10: “They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.”

Isaiah 65:25 describes, “The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain.”

One could potentially take a literal or a figurative interpretation from this verse; however, it seems likely that the passage is a metaphor indicating the peace that exists within the kingdom of God. It can equally describe the undisturbed nature of the eternal state. It is a fact that many eternal truths are described in a parabolic sense in order to impress the great mystery of eternity to our finite mind.

This seems to symbolically depict the peace that Christ has introduced through the new covenant and which will be literally realized in the new heavens and new earth. The one thing it does not speak of is some supposed sin-cursed, goat-infested, death-blighted future millennial kingdom.

Isaiah 11:9-10, in particular, refers to the New Testament era, which is what Paul applied it to here:

Romans 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: 9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name. 10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people. 11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people. 12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

And, of course, Isaiah 65:25 applies to the eternal new heavens and new earth that will be ushered in when Christ returns. We have a taste of that already spiritually in the kingdom of God and that's why Isaiah 11:9 and Isaiah 65:25 are similar but not referring to exactly the same time.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Agreed. How does that prove Premil?

I wasn't proving premil. I was proving that my refrigerator keeps the food at a temperature between 40 and 50 degrees. What did you think I was doing?

:) right?

The point is, we don't share a common frame of reference so whatever proof I offer, will not be convincing to you.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You think Rev 14 is depicting a scene on earth because it says they are with the Lamb standing on Mt Sion?

Of course. Don't you?

 

[CadyandZoe]

You, as all premillennialists seem to think that the binding of Satan will bring love, joy and peace upon this earth.

The binding of Satan brings peace. People bring their own love and Joy. :)

 

[rwb]

If satan is no longer deceiving the nations, what is preventing every single person from being saved? Assuming you are correct, why isn't everyone being saved since there is no one to deceive them?

Not all the peoples of all the nations believe in Christ! How does Satan keep unsaved man from being deceived? The heart in unbelief is what defiles a man. Using the wicked heart in unbelief is how Satan is able to hold unsaved mankind in bondage to fear of death as the Gospel is being proclaimed unto all the nations of the earth.

Jeremiah 17:9 (KJV) The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Mark 7:20-23 (KJV) And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

Faith comes by hearing the Word of God! Yet some hear the Word and remain in unbelief, why?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Again, opinions without biblical proofs???

I gave you proof, and as I said earlier, since you and I don't share the same assumptions and presuppositions, what I offer as proof is not convincing to you.

Do you even know how Gog and Magog are defined?

How is that relevant in your opinion?

Satan is set free to deceive the nations of those who are Gog (antichrists) and (Magog) antichristians, but not to bring peace to the world, not even Israel. Rev 20 clearly shows Satan gathering those who belong to him, to destroy, if possible, the last of the Church (Christians) still alive on the earth when he is set free. Instead of succeeding, both he and those who follow after him will be destroyed by the fire that shall come down from heaven, and their final fate shall be the lake of fire.

How does that prove that Satan is currently bound? Satan is deceiving people now his dominion of darkness still exists. QED

 

[CadyandZoe]

Isaiah 11:9-10, in particular, refers to the New Testament era, which is what Paul applied it to here:

Romans 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: 9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name. 10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people. 11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people. 12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

Yes, but what you may not realize is that both Isaiah and Paul are talking about a geopolitical situation.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Does this mean that over the years Amils did provide Biblical evidence from the book of Revelation that prove satan is bound during the NT church era? Obviously, Revelation 20 aside since it is debatable what era of time that fits, all previous chapters are pretty much pertaining to this present age and the NT church age, the same era of time Amils have satan bound in the pit. That's 19 entire chapters covering this current age and the NT church era. So where are the verses in any of those 19 chapters that support satan is bound in the pit and not deceiving the nations at the time?

Revelation 9 and 12 have already been referenced, so I won't repeat what was already said about those chapters, but I believe Revelation 17 also can be used as evidence that Satan is bound during the NT era.

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

The dragon, which obviously represents Satan and the beast work together. The following proves this:

Revelation 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. 2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. 3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. 4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

The beast is what Satan uses to do his bidding. Revelation 17:8 indicates that the beast was in the bottomless pit when John wrote the book of Revelation. Since Satan depends on the beast to help him, it only follows that if the beast is bound in the pit, then so is Satan. Anything affecting the beast affects Satan and vice versa since the dragon gives his power to the beast.

 

[MA2444]

What is cuckoo is believing there shall be peace on THIS earth for one thousand years! Prove what you allege!

1 John 2:27
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

I can give you the scriptures but I can't understand it for you. It's in Isaiah, Jerimiah and Ezekial. It's really very clear....??

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Isaiah chapter 11 is about the millennium.

Yes, it is. And Paul applied it to the New Testament era. He referenced Isaiah 11:10 in the following passage in reference to the New Testament era when the Gentiles have come to salvation because of what Jesus Christ has done after previously having mostly "no hope" and being "without God in the world" in OT times (Eph 2:11-13):

Romans 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: 9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name. 10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people. 11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people. 12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

 

[rwb]

There will never be peace on this earth, peace on earth is only found in Gods “holy mountain” which is heavenly Jerusalem.

Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Does physical death hurt or destroy those who by grace through faith have come to mount Sion, the city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem and innumerable company of angels? When we have been born again through Christ's Spirit are we not already spiritually on the holy mountain of God where physical death has no more power over us?

Hebrews 12:22-24 (KJV) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

You're viewing the prophecies of Old as things that shall physically come and have forgotten that Christ has already come in His Kingdom. His Kingdom, that He came to earth with is not now physical and shall never be physical on THIS earth. That's why Christ tells us the Kingdom of God cannot be observed with physical sight, and that it can only be known and entered when we have been born again! If you read the prophecy of Isaiah in context, beginning with vs 1 you discover this is speaking of the day/time/age when the Messiah/Savior/Christ Jesus our Lord/the stem of Jesse (father of David) a Branch (Christ) that shall grow out of his roots. This was a future prophecy for those living in the days of Old, but it is a present reality for those living since the advent of Christ come to earth a man. The things the prophet foretells cannot be literally, physically discerned as things coming in the future and shall be for one thousand literal years. The things the prophet foretells can only be rightly understood when they are spiritually discerned as all that would come to pass when the Branch would come. The Branch is Messiah/Savior/Christ Jesus our Lord, and this prophesy is being fulfilled during this age of grace as the Gospel is being proclaimed unto all the earth and the spiritual Kingdom of God is being completed.

Jeremiah 23:5 (KJV) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

Zechariah 6:12-13 (KJV) And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD: Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.

 

[rwb]

Of course. Don't you?

The scene depicted cannot be physical, because then it makes zero sense. John is shown a vision of spiritually alive saints in heaven not on earth.

 

[rwb]

The binding of Satan brings peace. People bring their own love and Joy. :)

Brings peace for whom? The whole earth? Love, joy and peace come only to those who are no longer in bondage to fear of death because they have been born again through the Spirit and have everlasting life. Scripture is clear that sin and physical death through sin shall be part of life on this earth until Christ returns and makes an end of all death! Where in Scripture can you prove what you allege?

 

[rwb]

I can give you the scriptures but I can't understand it for you. It's in Isaiah, Jerimiah and Ezekial. It's really very clear....??

You have not yet shown that you have properly understood what the prophets foretell concerning the coming of Christ. The Kingdom of God that Christ ushered in is NOT physical, it is a spiritual Kingdom. While looking for a physical fulfillment of the prophets, do you not understand that man may only know and enter the Kingdom of God when they are born again?

 

[rebuilder 454]

You have been shown many times that this is a lie.

• Satan is a spiritual being.
• Spiritual chains restraint spiritual beings in Scripture.
• Revelation is saturated in figurative language.
• There is NO other Scripture that corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that Satan will be bound for a time-span of 1000 years after the Second Advent then released for a "little season" to deceive the nations, and then destroyed.
• Scripture teaches that Satan has already fell from heaven and now present in the Abyss (John 12:31-33 and Revelation 12:9-13). Peter 2:4, Jude v 6 and Revelation 9:1-11 shows the demonic world in a current spiritually bound condition in the abyss.
• Matthew 12:22-29, Mark 3:11, 23-27, Luke 10:18-19, Luke 11:20-22, John 12:31-33 Colossians 2:13-15, Hebrews 2:14-15, I John 3:8, Revelation 9:1-11, Revelation 12:7-9 and Revelation 20:2 prove Satan was cast out, bound, defeated, incapacitated, divested of power, disarmed, brought to naught, undone, stripped and spiritually imprisoned through Christ's sinless life, atoning death and triumphant resurrection. Colossians 2:15 tells us: “having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.” Satan has not been rendered immobile or inoperative but is limited in his power, kingship and influence by being defeated on the cross. He is like a dog on a chain. He is shackled.

Maybe watching " nefarious " will help.
Satan is the god of this world.
Death has been defeated.
Sickness defeated.
Yet there is rampant increases in the devils influence.
...even though both are decisively defeated.

The elephant in the room is that we got pitched the keys to the kingdom and all authority has been ascribed to the church.
If we don't take authority....the enemy has free reign.

The Church sits clueless, obsessing over theories of baseball while the ones on the field are doing the art of the game.

Not perfectly ,but out there trying ,getting dirty and hurt , while being eloquently and "masterfully" critiqued by " experts" warming the bench that can't even catch a underhanded slow ball.
.....but boy can they talk a bunch of theory and nonsense!