The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[Davidpt]

Premils have no choice but to deny that Abaddon/Apollyon is another name for Satan because they know that if it is referring to Satan, then it's indicating that he will be loosed at the fifth trumpet BEFORE Christ's second coming. Revelation 9 is STRONG evidence in favor of Amillennialism.

If satan and Abaddon/Apollyon are one and the same, well John had at least two opportunities to make that point clear, yet he never did.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


Guess what he didn't say here? He didn't say--- And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, Satan, and Abaddon/Apollyon

Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Guess what he didn't say here? He didn't say--- And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, Satan, and Abaddon/Apollyon

Do some of you not pay closer attention to some of the details involving what you are reading at times? Do you not see the reason the locusts are let out of the pit to begin with?

Revelation 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.


We are to believe that instead of satan having these locusts attack his enemies, the church, he has them attacking his own ppl instead? And no, I don't think literal locusts are meant, in the event you bring that up. What these locusts are is beside the point. What they are being used for is the point. And they are clearly not being used by satan since it benefits satan zero to attack his own ppl rather than the church.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You seem like a rather closed minded person. Has anybody ever told you that? I bet your wife has told you that. Be honest.

Never. Your lack of ability to discern who I am as a person matches your lack of ability to discern what scripture teaches.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Um... no, 2 Peter 3:6 is talking about the flood waters that destroyed the world. He's not talking about the end of the age. That's kind of weird that you would bring that up. I think Daniel 9:26 is a better reference: The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed.

Are you trying to tell me that Daniel 9:26 is talking about a flood of water?

Wow. What in the world is going on here? We're obviously not on the same page at all. Of course I'm not saying that about Daniel 9:26. Good grief. This is a waste of time. There's no point in continuing this discussion.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Not so bro! LOL. Your posts are potent!

They are avoiding post after post of yours and other Amils. They have nothing. The reader can see that.

LOL. Yeah, I didn't actually think at all that you were disagreeing with what I said since I know that you see the fulfillment of Isaiah 11:10 being shown as relating to the NT era in Romans 15:12 as well.

 

[IndianaRob]

Isaiah 2:2-4 says, speaking of the Lord’s first Advent, “And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."

Micah 4:1-3 parallels this teaching, saying, “in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it. And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.”

Premils are always thinking natural, physical, temporal and carnal. Amils see the movement away from the Old Testament shadow, picture and type reality to the New Testament spiritual substance, reality and fulfilment. Christ was always redirecting our eyes away from the natural to the spiritual, from the earthly to the heavenly, from the temporal to the eternal and from the visible to the invisible. The natural man is captivated with the natural, the earthly and the temporal the heavenly man is captivated with the supernatural, the heavenly and the eternal.

The old temporal earthly kingdom of Israel was merely a type of the new spiritual heavenly eternal kingdom that Christ was going to introduce at His first Advent. The whole old covenant structure was always going to be superseded by a better system. As you get into the New Testament you quickly realise that physical Jerusalem is no longer considered true Zion (or Sion). Under the new covenant, Zion is heavenly, spiritual and eternal not earthly, physical and temporal. The Old Testament was simply an imperfect type of the real.

These passages are telling us that Messiah would come and bring peace to His subjects. This would be performed through the Word of God going out of Zion to all nations in these last days. Christ did this. The Gentiles are now coming to the truth of God by their millions. Isaiah receives a pictorial vision of the approaching new covenant order, and the last days. It is given in a metaphorical style describing the incredible peace and reconciliation that comes through the success of the Gospel. The mountain of the Lord refers to the kingdom introduced by Christ. There is no more war there. Mountains in Scripture prophetically speak of kingdoms. That is the case in Isaiah 2 and Malachi 4. The peace described came with the earthly ministry of Christ.

God urges His people throughout the nations in the last days to stream to His holy mountain. This is obviously talking about an intimate spiritual place with Him, not a geographical location.

Psalm 24:3-4: “Who shall ascend into the hill (or mountain) of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place? He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.”

Isaiah 11:9-10: “They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.”

Isaiah 65:25 describes, “The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain.”

This passage could well be a metaphor indicating the peace that exists within the kingdom of God. It can equally describe the undisturbed nature of the eternal state. It is a fact that many eternal truths are described in a parabolic sense in order to impress the great mystery of eternity to our finite mind.

This seems to symbolically depict the peace that Christ has introduced through the new covenant and which will be literally realized in the new heavens and new earth. The one thing it does not speak of is some supposed sin-cursed, goat-infested, death-blighted future millennial kingdom.

I agree with all of that. The kingdom of heaven / kingdom of God IS heavenly Jerusalem, those who live there are in the millennial kingdom.

 

[Freedm]

Yes, it most certainly is. That is what "the air" refers to. You are mistaken.

In 1 Thess 4:17 "the air" is translated from the Greek word "aēr" and this is what that word means:

View attachment 49475

Thanks for posting the translation, so I don't have to. The translation disproves your own point. The atmospheric region, the lower air, as opposed to the upper air, proves we're talking about the air at ground level, not up in the sky.

1 Thess 4:17
then we who are living, who are remaining over, together with them shall be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in air, and so always with the Lord we shall be;

It means the Lord is coming down here to live with us, in our hearts, "and so always with the Lord we shall be". Your understanding would require us to always be with the lord flying through the sky, so that doesn't make sense. My understanding makes a lot more sense.

 

[IndianaRob]

Before the advent of Christ coming to earth a man, only the nation of Israel had been given the Word of God through the prophets and the law. These were to point the nation of Israel to the Messiah/Savior who was to come. The Jewish nation was alone chosen to be light bearers to all the nations of the world. But the nations did not have the Word, the prophets or the law to tell them of the Messiah who would come to redeem people from all the nations of the world. That is the Covenant promise given to Abraham. That a Seed (Messiah/Savior/Christ Jesus our Lord) would come and that the nations of the earth shall be blessed in Him. Remember, Abraham is the father of faithful saints from every nation of the earth.

Genesis 18:18 (KJV) Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?

Romans 3:1-2 (KJV) What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

Romans 9:3-5 (KJV) For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

The nation of Israel of Old was not faithful, they were disobedient to the Covenant God gave through Abraham. They kept the message of the coming Messiah/Savior to themselves, teaching instead that any peoples who wished to be included with the covenant people called Israel must be obedient to the Levitical Law. Instead of by faith alone, Israel believed that apart from converting to Judaism and obedient to all the Mosaic Law none could be counted in the Covenant of redemption.

For this reason, when Christ came to earth a man, the Gentile nations of the earth were still in darkness and unbelief. Never having known the Gospel, nor the Law, having not the Prophets, and Priests. Until Christ came and proved that bondage to fear of death that Satan held the Gentiles nations in is broken forever to all who hear and believe the Gospel. That is how the cross and resurrection bound Satan. This is how the spirit called Satan, the Devil, and dragon was bound, not literally bound with physical chains and physical pit, but spiritually bound by the power of the Holy Spirit being sent to enter into those who believe, teaching the faithful that in Christ death can no longer hold them in fear. Death is defeated by Christ to whosoever from every nation of the earth believes the Gospel has eternal life.

The men of Nineveh were gentile believers weren’t they?

 

[Freedm]

Nonsense! Are you denying the bodily resurrection of the dead unto bodily immortality that will occur at the last trumpet when Jesus comes again (1 Cor 15:22-23;50-54)? The eternal age to come will not be ushered in until then! At that point death will be "swallowed up in victory" (1 Cor 15:54) but that has not yet occurred!

Death has already been swallowed up in victory. I believe I will never experience death. Don't you believe the same?

 

[Freedm]

Why would you refer to yourself as being a pretribber ?

"pretribber" is label for persons who believe in a pre-trib (ulation) rapture. But since pre-trib considers the entire 7 year 70th week as "tribulation" - the term pre-trib actually infers pre-70th week rapture.

From this website...

Home - The Pre-Trib Research Center

www.pre-trib.org

The Pre-Trib Research Center (PTRC) is committed to the study, proclamation, teaching, and defense of the pre-tribulation rapture (pre-70th week of Daniel) and related end-time prophecy.

Did I say I was a pre-tribber? If so, I apologize. I meant preterist. All these "pre" words. So similar.

 

[Freedm]

Are you sure you are not a Full Preterist? This is spirutualization gone crazy. I am not going to waste my time on such nonsense.

I get it. I've blown your mind. When your mind heals, give it another thought. You'll see that it's not so crazy after all. It's actually simple facts. The temple was "heaven and earth". FACT!

 

[Freedm]

Never. Your lack of ability to discern who I am as a person matches your lack of ability to discern what scripture teaches.

Got it!

 

[Freedm]

Wow. What in the world is going on here? We're obviously not on the same page at all. Of course I'm not saying that about Daniel 9:26. Good grief. This is a waste of time. There's no point in continuing this discussion.

Sounds like you're ready to run. I've bombarded you with inconvenient truths, and now you're experiencing cognitive dissonance. That's tough, but there was a flood in 70 AD, in Jerusalem, and you know it. Just accept it! Don't fight it anymore! The truth will set you free!!!

 

[IndianaRob]

Yes, it is. And Paul applied it to the New Testament era. He referenced Isaiah 11:10 in the following passage in reference to the New Testament era when the Gentiles have come to salvation because of what Jesus Christ has done after previously having mostly "no hope" and being "without God in the world" in OT times (Eph 2:11-13):

Romans 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: 9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name. 10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people. 11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people. 12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

For the record I don’t believe the millennium is future I believe the millennial kingdom is the believer living in heavenly Jerusalem.

 

[WPM]

If satan and Abaddon/Apollyon are one and the same, well John had at least two opportunities to make that point clear, yet he never did.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


Guess what he didn't say here? He didn't say--- And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, Satan, and Abaddon/Apollyon

Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Guess what he didn't say here? He didn't say--- And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, Satan, and Abaddon/Apollyon

Do some of you not pay closer attention to some of the details involving what you are reading at times? Do you not see the reason the locusts are let out of the pit to begin with?

Revelation 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.


We are to believe that instead of satan having these locusts attack his enemies, the church, he has them attacking his own ppl instead? And no, I don't think literal locusts are meant, in the event you bring that up. What these locusts are is beside the point. What they are being used for is the point. And they are clearly not being used by satan since it benefits satan zero to attack his own ppl rather than the church.

These are sone of the weakest arguments that I have seen submitted on this forum. You obviously are struggling for a defence for your doctrine. Scripture presents many name's and depictions of characters only once. That in no way negates the reality of the person in view.

And yes, Satan torments his own. What is surprising about that? Christians are protected though. They have their minds gird about with the truth. They are sealed with the mark of God until the day of redemption.

These petty arguments expose the futility of Premillennialism.

 

[WPM]

Sounds like you're ready to run. I've bombarded you with inconvenient truths, and now you're experiencing cognitive dissonance. That's tough, but there was a flood in 70 AD, in Jerusalem, and you know it. Just accept it! Don't fight it anymore! The truth will set you free!!!

It is foolish engaging with fools and heretics.

 

[WPM]

For the record I don’t believe the millennium is future I believe the millennial kingdom is the believer living in heavenly Jerusalem.

When and where?

 

[WPM]

I agree with all of that. The kingdom of heaven / kingdom of God IS heavenly Jerusalem, those who live there are in the millennial kingdom.

We are spiritually located there now.

 

[WPM]

I get it. I've blown your mind. When your mind heals, give it another thought. You'll see that it's not so crazy after all. It's actually simple facts. The temple was "heaven and earth". FACT!

Get a life!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

If satan and Abaddon/Apollyon are one and the same, well John had at least two opportunities to make that point clear, yet he never did.

LOL. What gives you the impression that the book of Revelation was written in such a way to spell everything out and make everything clear to everyone? The book was purposely "signified" (Rev 1:1) which means it was purposely symbolized so that only discerning believers could understand it, which is similar to Jesus's parables in that way.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


Guess what he didn't say here? He didn't say--- And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, Satan, and Abaddon/Apollyon

You're always coming up with invalid arguments like this. Why? Satan is also called things like "the tempter" (Matt 4:3), "Beelzebub" (Matt 12:24), "the god of this world" (2 Cor 4:4), and "the prince of the power of the air" (Eph 2:2), so does that mean he can't actually be called those things since they aren't mentioned in Revelation 12:9?

Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Guess what he didn't say here? He didn't say--- And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, Satan, and Abaddon/Apollyon

LOL. So what? He also didn't say "and the tempter", "and Beelzebub", "and the god of this world" or "and the prince of the power of the air". Does that mean he's not actually "the tempter", "Beelzebub", etc.? I can't take arguments like this seriously. You're always going out of your way to figure out how you can support premil instead of just studying scripture objectively.

Do some of you not pay closer attention to some of the details involving what you are reading at times?

This is a ridiculous accusation to make towards Amils who are constantly backing up our view with extensive and thorough exegesis of scripture.

Do you not see the reason the locusts are let out of the pit to begin with?

Yes, I can read just as well as you can. Please stop asking these types of ridiculous questions.

Revelation 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

We are to believe that instead of satan having these locusts attack his enemies, the church, he has them attacking his own ppl instead? And no, I don't think literal locusts are meant, in the event you bring that up. What these locusts are is beside the point.

No, what the locusts are is very much part of the point. It's no wonder why you wouldn't want to discuss that. If they are fallen angels, as I believe, then Abaddon has to be Satan since scripture clearly says Satan is their king since it refers to them as "his angels" (Rev 12:9, Matt 25:41). What a surprise that you'd want to act like that is beside the point when it absolutely is not beside the point at all.

So, please tell me who or what you think the locusts represent, keeping in mind that their king is the angel of the bottomless pit.

What they are being used for is the point. And they are clearly not being used by satan since it benefits satan zero to attack his own ppl rather than the church.

Wow. This is just stunning. For one thing, it doesn't say they don't also attack the church, but this particular passage focuses on them attacking unbelievers. Are you trying to say that you think that Satan and his angels only attack the church while leaving unbelievers alone? If so, that is clearly a ridiculous argument to make. No, Satan and his angels do not just leave unbelievers alone while only focusing on the church. How can you think such a thing? Notice that their torment of unbelievers causes them to lose hope to the point that they want to die (Revelation 9:6). Do you not think Satan wants that? Of course he does! So, I don't see this as a valid argument at all.

 

[WPM]

The men of Nineveh were gentile believers weren’t they?

He was talking about nations! Not the rare occasions Gentile experience.