The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[Spiritual Israelite]

Sounds like you're ready to run.

LOL! You're proving even more that you don't know who I am. I never run away from an argument. But, I do not want to waste any more of my time arguing against complete, utter, total nonsense like you believe.

I've bombarded you with inconvenient truths, and now you're experiencing cognitive dissonance.

LOL! You are a comedian. You are here to perform your standup act?

That's tough, but there was a flood in 70 AD, in Jerusalem, and you know it. Just accept it! Don't fight it anymore! The truth will set you free!!!

A flood of sorts, sure. I never denied what happened in 70 AD. Hello? Wake up. But, I was saying that Jesus compared the scope of destruction that will occur at His coming to the flood in Noah's day. But, I guess you're too focused on 70 AD to see what I was actually talking about.

 

[rwb]

I agree with all of that. The kingdom of heaven / kingdom of God IS heavenly Jerusalem, those who live there are in the millennial kingdom.

Yes, they entered the millennial Kingdom of God spiritually while still alive on the earth before they died. Because the millennial Kingdom is not one thousand years to come but is TIME that began with the first advent of Christ and shall not end until this particular time shall be no longer when the seventh trumpet begins to sound.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Maybe we should rename this thread to "The absurdity of pretrib and premil logic".

 

[Douggg]

Did I say I was a pre-tribber? If so, I apologize. I meant preterist. All these "pre" words. So similar.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[rwb]

The men of Nineveh were gentile believers weren’t they?

Yes, they were Gentile exceptions, why? Because they believed the servant Jonah that God sent to preach to them. They heeded the message proclaimed and believed in God, from the greatest of them to the least of them. When you read the entire accounting, you find not only did Jonah not want to go and preach to them, but that he actually tried to run away from God. This was the attitude of Jews of Old, who believed only the nation of Israel was worthy of God's blessings. It was not until Christ came to earth a man that the Gospel was to be sent unto all the nations of the earth, who, like the Gentiles of Nineveh sat in darkness and in bondage to fear of death. It was fear of death (being overthrown/perishing) by God that moved their hearts to believe God and repent of their evil ways.

Jonah 1:2 (KJV) Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness is come up before me.

Jonah 3:1-2 (KJV) And the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the second time, saying, Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee.

Jonah 3:3-5 (KJV) So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the LORD. Now Nineveh was an exceeding great city of three days' journey. And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown. So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.

Jonah 3:6-10 (KJV) For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes. And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water: But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands. Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not? And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

 

[IndianaRob]

Yes, they were Gentile exceptions, why? Because they believed the servant Jonah that God sent to preach to them. They heeded the message proclaimed and believed in God, from the greatest of them to the least of them. When you read the entire accounting, you find not only did Jonah not want to go and preach to them, but that he actually tried to run away from God. This was the attitude of Jews of Old, who believed only the nation of Israel was worthy of God's blessings. It was not until Christ came to earth a man that the Gospel was to be sent unto all the nations of the earth, who, like the Gentiles of Nineveh sat in darkness and in bondage to fear of death. It was fear of death (being overthrown/perishing) by God that moved their hearts to believe God and repent of their evil ways.

Jonah 1:2 (KJV) Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness is come up before me.

Jonah 3:1-2 (KJV) And the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the second time, saying, Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee.

Jonah 3:3-5 (KJV) So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the LORD. Now Nineveh was an exceeding great city of three days' journey. And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown. So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.

Jonah 3:6-10 (KJV) For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes. And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water: But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands. Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not? And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

I know you’ve replied to me several times and I apologize, I’m doing other things at the same time and this thread is moving faster than I can keep.

I agree the primary focus was of the Old Testament was on the Jews but there are many gentile believers in the OT.

 

[rwb]

I know you’ve replied to me several times and I apologize, I’m doing other things at the same time and this thread is moving faster than I can keep.

I agree the primary focus was of the Old Testament was on the Jews but there are many gentile believers in the OT.

I know what you mean about fast moving threads. I logged today about 7:30 and still haven't read all the replies from yesterday to today! Every time I think I've replied adequately, there are more replies! Gotta love these boards huh?

I know that Gentiles too came under the hearing of the Law, and prophets of Old, but for them to be included with the Covenant people of God called Israel, a Gentile must become a Jew. If a Gentile male they would have to first be circumcised, and a Gentile female came into the Covenant body, Israel, by marrying a Jew. The Jews of Old, Israel as an ethnic people were more interested in being more like the Gentile nations around them, then they were about sharing the Covenant promises of God with Gentiles, they considered to be dogs. Gentiles becoming a Jew by sex or marriage belonged to the Covenant body outwardly. But both natural born Jews and Gentiles alike could only be eternally saved according to grace through faith. Without faith in Christ none shall be saved.

 

[IndianaRob]

I know what you mean about fast moving threads. I logged today about 7:30 and still haven't read all the replies from yesterday to today! Every time I think I've replied adequately, there are more replies! Gotta love these boards huh?

I know that Gentiles too came under the hearing of the Law, and prophets of Old, but for them to be included with the Covenant people of God called Israel, a Gentile must become a Jew. If a Gentile male they would have to first be circumcised, and a Gentile female came into the Covenant body, Israel, by marrying a Jew. The Jews of Old, Israel as an ethnic people were more interested in being more like the Gentile nations around them, then they were about sharing the Covenant promises of God with Gentiles, they considered to be dogs. Gentiles becoming a Jew by sex or marriage belonged to the Covenant body outwardly. But both natural born Jews and Gentiles alike could only be eternally saved according to grace through faith. Without faith in Christ none shall be saved.

There are so many interesting things that come up during these discussions that are totally unrelated to the OP.

I hate to say it but typing on a forum is probably the worst way for two individuals to communicate but it sure is fun!

I’m 60 years, old half blind, and trying to read and type on an iPhone lol.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I know you’ve replied to me several times and I apologize, I’m doing other things at the same time and this thread is moving faster than I can keep.

I agree the primary focus was of the Old Testament was on the Jews but there are many gentile believers in the OT.

What do you mean by "many"? I'd say there were relatively few Gentile believers in OT times and certainly far less than in NT times. That's why Paul said this about the Gentiles of OT times:

Ephesians 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

 

[IndianaRob]

What do you mean by "many"? I'd say there were relatively few Gentile believers in OT times and certainly far less than in NT times. That's why Paul said this about the Gentiles of OT times:

Ephesians 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

The Old Testament church was hidden (in her closet) in the Old Testament according to Joel 2.

There are many things about the church that are either not given or heavily veiled in the Old Testament.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The Old Testament church was hidden (in her closet) in the Old Testament according to Joel 2.

There are many things about the church that are either not given or heavily veiled in the Old Testament.

How does this address what I said exactly? Was Paul wrong when he said the Gentiles in OT times had "no hope" and were "without God in the world"? Sure, there were some exceptions to that, but Paul was speaking generally about how it was during that time for most of the world. In Noah's day only 8 people were saved. The lack of the light of the gospel shining in the world in that time resulted in a lack of hope for most people. Christ's shed blood changed all that is made it so that those who are far off were brought near.

This passage also refers to how things were in OT times and how things changed in NT times:

Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Can you see here that the devil had the power of death in OT times that he used to keep people in bondage to the fear of death? But, then Jesus came and "through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.".

It simply makes no sense to act as if there wasn't a huge difference made in the world between OT and NT times as it relates to salvation and as it relates to the amount of power Satan had in OT times compared to NT times.

 

[IndianaRob]

How does this address what I said exactly? Was Paul wrong when he said the Gentiles in OT times had "no hope" and were "without God in the world"? Sure, there were some exceptions to that, but Paul was speaking generally about how it was during that time for most of the world.

They were aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world because they were WITHOUT CHRIST.

There has never been a time when any race of people couldn’t believe God and it was counted to them as righteousness.

It’s like your putting forth the idea that salvation was only for earthly Jews.

 

[rwb]

There are so many interesting things that come up during these discussions that are totally unrelated to the OP.

I hate to say it but typing on a forum is probably the worst way for two individuals to communicate but it sure is fun!

I’m 60 years, old half blind, and trying to read and type on an iPhone lol.

I hear what you're saying, but honestly, I have learned so much from so many in these community forums. I've also learned how far apart so many of us are when it comes to rightly dividing the Word of God. I'm in my happy place when I search the Scriptures. I have thirteen years on you, and if I had to use my iPhone to communicate, I would go crazy! Because I too have trouble seeing at times. It has improved since I had cataract surgery. I too wish the topic wouldn't change until it has been exhaustively studied, but I also understand why the topic changes. I think it's difficult for the topics not to change because I believe the Bible is one cohesive whole. IOW one doctrine will always affect other doctrines, because all are intertwined.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The scene depicted cannot be physical, because then it makes zero sense. John is shown a vision of spiritually alive saints in heaven not on earth.

What word or phrase indicates that the venue is in heaven? I don't get that.

Let's take this step-by-step.

Revelation 14:1
Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads.

I understand that the book of Revelation is highly symbolic, but it is challenging to interpret passages of scripture that contain specific details as symbolic. John practically gives us the address of the meeting. He depicts the Lamb standing on Mount Zion with the 144,000. Our first introduction to the 144,000 is located in chapter 7, where they are given a mark on their hand and forehead, marking them as untouchable—individuals that will not come to harm when the earth, sea, and trees are harmed. This is our first clue that the 144,000 are on the earth. And our second clue is that they meet with Jesus on Mt. Zion, which is located in Jerusalem, the home of David the king.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

They were aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world because they were WITHOUT CHRIST.

Yes, exactly. After Christ came they obviously were no longer without Christ and therefore also no longer without hope and without God in the world.

There has never been a time when any race of people couldn’t believe God and it was counted to them as righteousness.

Did I say that? No, I did not. You are missing the point, so I will have to spell it out for you. I'm saying that the light of the gospel, of God's word, did not shine throughout the world in OT times like it has in NT times, so it resulted in an overall feeling of hopelessness in the world because they were not aware of the hope of eternal life through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ in those times.

Do you think that there has been no difference in the percentage of Gentiles being saved in NT times compared to OT times? If so, then why did Jesus come to sacrifice Himself on the cross if it supposedly made no difference in the world?

It’s like your putting forth the idea that salvation was only for earthly Jews.

It is not like that at all. You're not paying close attention to what I'm saying. It's a fact that most of the world was ignorant of the word of God in OT times. You must know that, don't you? This doesn't mean that salvation was withheld from the world. They are all judged based on what they did know (Romans 1 and 2). But, again, Paul said that, overall, the Gentiles had "no hope" and were "without God in the world" in OT times. That changed in NT times because of the shed blood of Christ. Do I really need to convince you that things changed drastically in the world as it relates to salvation in NT times compared to OT times? This is ridiculous that I would need to explain this simple concept to you.

 

[rwb]

They were aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world because they were WITHOUT CHRIST.

There has never been a time when any race of people couldn’t believe God and it was counted to them as righteousness.

It’s like your putting forth the idea that salvation was only for earthly Jews.

How could the Gentiles in unbelief know to call upon the Lord to be saved? Until the Gospel of Christ was sent unto them, they could not believe in whom they did not know. They learned of Christ through His Gospel preached unto them. Before the advent of Christ only Israel had heard of the gospel of good tidings to come, but many/most of them did not believe, and died in unbelief. That was the fate of Gentile nations before the advent of Christ sending the Gospel unto all the nations of the world.

Romans 10:13-21 (KJV) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Brings peace for whom? The whole earth? Love, joy and peace come only to those who are no longer in bondage to fear of death because they have been born again through the Spirit and have everlasting life. Scripture is clear that sin and physical death through sin shall be part of life on this earth until Christ returns and makes an end of all death! Where in Scripture can you prove what you allege?

A review of Luke chapter one may help.

Upon learning that his wife would bear a child who would pave the way for the Messiah, Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke these words about Jesus, inspired by the Holy Spirit.

The following is an excerpt of his speech taken from Luke 1:68-75

Blessed be the Lord God of Israel,​

For He has visited us and accomplished redemption for His people,​

And has raised up a horn of salvation for us​

In the house of David His servant—​

As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from of old—​

Salvation from our enemies,​

And from the hand of all who hate us;​

To show mercy toward our fathers,​

And to remember His holy covenant,​

The oath which He swore to Abraham our father,​

To grant us that we, being rescued from the hand of our enemies,​

Might serve Him without fear,​

In holiness and righteousness before Him all our days.​

​

During the Millennial Period, God will fulfill his promise to Israel. They will be led by a king from the line of David, find redemption, and experience salvation from their enemies. They will remember God's holy covenant and, having been rescued from their enemies, will serve Him without fear in holiness and righteousness before Him all of their days.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Of course he doesn't and no one who actually reads Revelation 14 carefully thinks it is portraying an earthly scene rather than a heavenly scene.

I have read it carefully, and I see nothing about heaven.

It talks about the 144,000 being "before the throne of God" (Rev 14:5)

I disagree with your assumption that John depicts the heavenly throne of God. John is depicting he earthly throne as constructed in Revelation 11. Jesus is standing on Mt. Zion in Jerusalem, which is where his thrown will be.

and having been redeemed "from the earth" (Rev 14:3).

When John mentions the 144,000, all of whom are descendants of Jacob, we can understand John's phrase "from the earth" to mean "from the land", indicating a distinct group with a deep historical connection to the land of Israel. The 144,000 are residents of Israel, living at that time in Israel, whom God marked for protection. John depicts them as meeting with Jesus on Mount Zion.

The throne of God is in heaven and if they are redeemed "FROM the earth" then they are not on earth.

Although there is a heavenly throne, there is also an earthly throne, which will be located in Jerusalem.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You can make all the assumptions you wish, in fact you usually do! While you're busy making assumptions without biblical proof texts, I'll continue to prove what I allege as biblical using the Word of God and not my opinions, or assumptions!

If you believe you are not making assumptions or bringing suppositions to the text when you read, then you need to reconsider. We all do that and the sooner we examine our assumptions the quicker we arrive at the truth.

It's impossible not to notice how the Amils on this thread always support from the Scripture what they believe.

You are Amill, yes? And have you ever questioned whether they are supporting Amill from the scriptures or selectively choosing passages of scripture that seem to agree with their position, while ignoring other passages that conflict with it?

Why is it that Premils think they can come with opinion and assumptions without biblical support, and we should believe what you say?
It's impossible to have meaningful dialogue in a Bible Forum without using the Bible! When will you Premils learn that we are not interested in what you wish, think, hope, assume, or guess when you show NOTHING from the Bible to prove?

I think there may be a misunderstanding. I am not suggesting that people should believe each other based solely on trust. I acknowledge the need for proof. I invite you to consider what constitutes as proof and what contributes to a productive exchange of ideas. This involves active listening, finding common ground, and engaging in a respectful manner. It also requires humility and a willingness to reconsider one's stance. Both sides of the argument should embrace this mindset.

Before I lay out my proof, I need to know that my opponent is willing to be convinced and will examine the evidence fairly and honestly. Some in this thread are willing to do that, while others are not.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Hypothetical analogy is a good way to define what you imagine! Because clearly you have nothing from the Bible to prove your hypothetical analogy!

This type of comment signals an unwillingness to listen fairly and honestly to proof.