Is your faith your own? - Is "the Faith" prescribed by a human institution?

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J

Johann

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Right now I'm affiliated with the CC.
That doesn't mean I'm Catholic.
Have been Protestant for about 40 years.
That doesn't mean I'm protestant.
YOU figure it out !
LOL
Interessante.

I have experienced emotional hurt from the Protestant church and do not adhere to some of the Calvary Chapel doctrines. Or is it Catholic Church?

Baptism:

Purpose: To cleanse a person of original sin and incorporate them into the Church.
Sign: Water.
Eucharist:

Purpose: To partake in the Body and Blood of Christ, commemorating the Last Supper.
Sign: Bread and wine.
Confirmation:

Purpose: To strengthen the Holy Spirit’s presence in the individual and complete the grace of Baptism.
Sign: Anointing with oil (chrism) and the laying on of hands.
Reconciliation (Confession):

Purpose: To seek forgiveness for sins committed after Baptism and to restore the relationship with God and the Church.
Sign: The verbal confession of sins to a priest and receiving absolution.
Anointing of the Sick:

Purpose: To provide spiritual and sometimes physical healing and to prepare the person for eternal life.
Sign: Anointing with oil and prayer.
Holy Orders:

Purpose: To ordain individuals to the priesthood, deaconate, or episcopacy, enabling them to perform sacred duties.
Sign: The laying on of hands and prayer of consecration.
Matrimony:

Purpose: To unite a man and woman in a lifelong, sacramental union that reflects Christ's relationship with the Church.
Sign: The exchange of vows and rings.
 
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J

Johann

Guest
Interessante.

I have experienced emotional hurt from the Protestant church and do not adhere to some of the Calvary Chapel doctrines. Or is it Catholic Church?

Baptism:

Purpose: To cleanse a person of original sin and incorporate them into the Church.
Sign: Water.
Eucharist:

Purpose: To partake in the Body and Blood of Christ, commemorating the Last Supper.
Sign: Bread and wine.
Confirmation:

Purpose: To strengthen the Holy Spirit’s presence in the individual and complete the grace of Baptism.
Sign: Anointing with oil (chrism) and the laying on of hands.
Reconciliation (Confession):

Purpose: To seek forgiveness for sins committed after Baptism and to restore the relationship with God and the Church.
Sign: The verbal confession of sins to a priest and receiving absolution.
Anointing of the Sick:

Purpose: To provide spiritual and sometimes physical healing and to prepare the person for eternal life.
Sign: Anointing with oil and prayer.
Holy Orders:

Purpose: To ordain individuals to the priesthood, deaconate, or episcopacy, enabling them to perform sacred duties.
Sign: The laying on of hands and prayer of consecration.
Matrimony:

Purpose: To unite a man and woman in a lifelong, sacramental union that reflects Christ's relationship with the Church.
Sign: The exchange of vows and rings.
Late edit.
 
J

Johann

Guest
Right.
The common belief. The faith that we all have in common.

/
I felt the necessity (anagke) to write (grapho) to you appealing (parakaleo) that you contend earnestly (epagonizomai) for the (definite article = "the") faith (pistis) which was once for all handed down to the saints - CSB = "I found it necessary to write and exhort you." Jude was constrained. NET = I now feel compelled instead to write to encourage you." The verb contend earnestly (epagonizomai) is an intensive form (epi) of agonizomai and thus conveys the picture of a heightened degree of struggling, fighting, contending, etc. "The faith here is not faith as exercised by the individual, but Christianity itself in its historic doctrines and life-giving salvation." (Wuest - Eerdmans Publishing - by permission)

NET NOTE - Grk “I had the necessity.” The term anankē, “necessity” often connotes urgency or distress. In this context, Jude is indicating that the more comprehensive treatment about the faith shared between himself and his readers was not nearly as urgent as the letter he found it now necessary to write.

Wuest - Jude had originally intended writing a letter containing a positive presentation of the doctrines of the Christian faith. The Holy Spirit laid upon his heart the necessity of writing in defense of the faith. (Eerdmans Publishing - used by permission)

Jude is like the duty of a watchman given to Ezekiel - At the end of seven days the word of the LORD came to me, saying, “Son of man, I have appointed you a watchman to the house of Israel; whenever you hear a word from My mouth, warn them from Me. “When I say to the wicked, ‘You will surely die,’ and you do not warn him or speak out to warn the wicked from his wicked way that he may live, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but his blood I will require at your hand. “Yet if you have warned the wicked and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but you have delivered yourself. “Again, when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and I place an obstacle before him, he will die; since you have not warned him, he shall die in his sin, and his righteous deeds which he has done shall not be remembered; but his blood I will require at your hand. However, if you have warned the righteous man that the righteous should not sin and he does not sin, he shall surely live because he took warning; and you have delivered yourself.” (Ezek 3:16-21)

Necessity (318)(anagke from ana = up, again + agcho = to compress, press tight) literally means to compress. It refers to feeling of an necessity, constraint or compulsion. Because of the surreptitious nature of the attack on the believers he is preparing to address, Jude senses a compelling obligation (I would suggest that it is one energized by the Holy Spirit in a Spirit controlled man) to correct the subtle doctrinal errors.

Earnestly contend (1864)(epagonizomai from epí = toward + agonizomai = to strive, contend earnestly) with the prefix epi in this context (Jude 1:3), this prefix is used as an intensifier conveying the meaning of a little additional (epi) striving to the already strong agonizomai (agon = contest). Only here in New Testament (hapax legomenon). This word group gives us our English "agony" suggesting pain too intense to be borne! This describes Jude's internal turmoil and consternation upon hearing of the "creepers" in Jude 1:4. Compare our English = agonize = picture of a devoted athlete, competing in the Greek games and stretching his nerves and muscles to do his very best to win. You never fight the Lord’s battles from a rocking chair or a soft bed! Constable adds "This unique compound verb pictures a person taking his or her stand on top of something an adversary desires to take away, and fighting to defend and retain it."

Hiebert - “To ‘contend earnestly for’ (epagonizesthai) is an expressive compound infinitive which appears only here in the New Testament. The simple form of the verb (agonizomai), which appears as ‘agonize’ in its English form, was commonly used in connection with the Greek stadium to denote a strenuous struggle to overcome an opponent, as in a wrestling match. It was also used more generally of any conflict, contest, debate, or lawsuit. Involved is the thought of the expenditure of all one’s energy in order to prevail.” (BORROW Second Peter and Jude An Expositional Commentary - page 218)

MacArthur - contend earnestly. While the salvation of those to whom he wrote was not in jeopardy, false teachers preaching and living out a counterfeit gospel were misleading those who needed to hear the true gospel. Jude wrote this urgent imperative for Christians to wage war against error in all forms and fight strenuously for the truth, like a soldier who has been entrusted with a sacred task of guarding a holy treasure (cf. 1 Tim. 6:12; 2 Tim. 4:7).

Wuest - The Greek athletes exerted themselves to the point of agony in an effort to win the contest. With such intense effort does Jude say that saints should defend the doctrines of Christianity. Peter, in his first epistle (1Pe 3:15+), tells us how we are to do so. He says that we should “be ready always to give an answer” to the opposition. The words “give an answer” are in the Greek a technical term of the law courts, speaking of the attorney for the defense “presenting a verbal defense” for his client. This is part of the ministry of every pastor. He must guard the flock of God under his charge from the inroads of Modernism by presenting evidences of the divine source of Christianity and the falsity of the modernistic position. The intensity of the defense must be adjusted to the intensity of the opposition which comes from Satan through Modernism. (Eerdmans Publishing - used by permission)

Guy Woods - These efforts are, it is surely unnecessary to add, of a moral and persuasive nature only; all force of a physical nature being expressly forbidden the faithful. When Peter sought to defend the Lord with a sword he was rebuked for his pains; and in bidding him sheathe it, he forevermore made it clear that his followers are not to fight with carnal weapons in his behalf.” (A Commentary on the New Testament Epistles of Peter, John, and Jude)

Cedar says "Jude has two major concerns—that they [his readers] will not be led astray by false teachers. He prays that they will instead take the initiative and contend for the faith.”

As Paul warned the elders at Ephesus "Therefore be on the alert, (present imperative = command for continual alertness so as to be able to detect savage wolves) remembering that night and day for a period of three years I did not cease to admonish each one with tears." (Acts 20:31)

THOUGHT - How does one "CONTEND EARNESTLY"? See [Titus 1:9, Acts 18:28, 2Ti 2:25, Jer 13:15-17] for some possible ideas on what it means to contend earnestly. Also just about any of the OT prophets are a good picture of those who contended earnestly for OT truth.. Involved is the thought of the expenditure of all one's energy in order to prevail. Here, as often, the verb is used metaphorically to denote a spiritual conflict in which believers are engaged.


The Faith - see discussion of the faith (pistis) = The sum of what Christians believe. Approximately one-half of the 38 occurrences of the specific phrase the faith refer not to the ACT of believing but rather to WHAT is believed. Robertson remarks that the faith refers to "the gospel, the faith system as in Gal 1:23; Jude 1:3, etc. (It) means more than individual trust in Christ."

In short, "the faith" here refers not to the ACT of believing but rather to WHAT is believed = the unchangeable message of the Gospel, that body of Christian truth which brings salvation (past, present and future). In Jude this faith has been delivered to the saints once for all and these who have crept in have distorted "the faith," this venerable body of doctrinal truth by which we are sustained and grow in grace. The descriptive phrase, "which was once for all delivered to the saints," makes it obvious that the reference is not to the believers' subjective faith but to the objective truths to which believers firmly adhere. (cp Gal 1:23 "preaching the faith" - clearly refers to the body of truth to be believed which corresponds to "the gospel").


 
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St. SteVen

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yes it does.
We have a CHRISTIAN RELIGION that INCLUDES personal belief in Jesus as Lord and Savior.
Okay, thanks.
I don't see personal belief in Jesus as Lord and Savior in your list below.

That Christian religion includes other necessities:
PRAYER
MIRACLES --- BELIEF IN
OBEDIENCE TO JESUS
FOLLOWING THE 10 COMMANDMENTS
FELLOWSHIPPING - GATHERING AS BELIEVERS
LITURGICAL CELEBRATIONS
COMMUNION - REMEMBERING JESUS IN A SPECIAL WAY
BURIAL CEREMONIES
TEACHING OUR CHILDREN OUR FAITH - or the faith.

There's more but that should suffice.
How much of that was delivered to the saints in Judes' day?
Liturgies? Sabbatarianism? Views on the law?
What were the essentials?

The above DOES NOT EXCLUDE belief in Jesus in a personal way.
I don't see personal belief in Jesus as Lord and Savior in your list above.
Weren't the creeds developed to codify the essential beliefs of the faith?
What was delivered to the saints once and for all. That which we should contend for?

[
 

St. SteVen

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In short, "the faith" here refers not to the ACT of believing but rather to WHAT is believed = the unchangeable message of the Gospel, that body of Christian truth which brings salvation (past, present and future).
The essential faith, not just another world religion.

If I have an ax to grind, it is with those modern denominations (and The Church/RCC) that declare THEIR understanding of "the faith" is superior to all other understandings. Which results in an "us versus them" mentality of condemnation for everyone outside of THEIR tribe.

[
 
J

Johann

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The essential faith, not just another world religion.

If I have an ax to grind, it is with those modern denominations (and The Church/RCC) that declare THEIR understanding of "the faith" is superior to all other understandings. Which results in an "us versus them" mentality of condemnation for everyone outside of THEIR tribe.

[
John 13:34-35 (NKJV):

"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."
1 Corinthians 1:10 (NKJV):

"Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."
1 Corinthians 12:25 (NKJV):

"That there should be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another."
Galatians 5:13 (NKJV):

"For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another."
Ephesians 4:2-3 (NKJV):

"With all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love, endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace."
1 Peter 4:8 (NKJV):

"And above all things have fervent love for one another, for ‘love will cover a multitude of sins.’"

These passages collectively highlight the biblical mandate for believers to love each other deeply and to strive for unity within the body of Christ, avoiding divisions and schisms.

Correct @St. SteVen?


I don't have an ax to grind with anyone-iron sharpens iron.
J.
 

St. SteVen

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These passages collectively highlight the biblical mandate for believers to love each other deeply and to strive for unity within the body of Christ, avoiding divisions and schisms.

Correct @St. SteVen?
Correct, but what is the reality?
Furthermore, what is the personal cost of unity?
Who decides what we are united on?


[
 

GodsGrace

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Interessante.

I have experienced emotional hurt from the Protestant church and do not adhere to some of the Calvary Chapel doctrines. Or is it Catholic Church?

CC means the Catholic Church (at least for me).
I'm very sorry when any church causes emotional hurt.
This happens in every church, unfortunately.
It usually happens when one is too close to that church.
I've experienced the same but, guess what, I don't care.
Why. Because the church is made up of human beings...
just because they're Christian doesn't make them perfect.
Our sinful nature follows us around wherever we go.

So, what I do I do for God.
It ends up being for man,,,but that's OK.
I understand what I'm doing.

Depend on God.
Not on man.

Baptism:

Purpose: To cleanse a person of original sin and incorporate them into the Church.
Sign: Water.

Right.
But the CC also teaches that infants receive the Holy Spirit at this time.
Creates a problem - don't want to change the topic.

Eucharist:

Purpose: To partake in the Body and Blood of Christ, commemorating the Last Supper.
Sign: Bread and wine.
Perfect.
Jesus is NOT recrucified - which I hear a lot from Protestants.
Confirmation:

Purpose: To strengthen the Holy Spirit’s presence in the individual and complete the grace of Baptism.
Sign: Anointing with oil (chrism) and the laying on of hands.
Perfect.
Reconciliation (Confession):

Purpose: To seek forgiveness for sins committed after Baptism and to restore the relationship with God and the Church.
Sign: The verbal confession of sins to a priest and receiving absolution.
Great!
Sins forgiven AFTER baptism.....
Restore the relationship with the church also.
Anointing of the Sick:

Purpose: To provide spiritual and sometimes physical healing and to prepare the person for eternal life.
Sign: Anointing with oil and prayer.
Perfect.
I have a little problem with this, but maybe not here.
Holy Orders:

Purpose: To ordain individuals to the priesthood, deaconate, or episcopacy, enabling them to perform sacred duties.
Sign: The laying on of hands and prayer of consecration.
Matrimony:

Purpose: To unite a man and woman in a lifelong, sacramental union that reflects Christ's relationship with the Church.
Sign: The exchange of vows and rings.
You pass!
 

GodsGrace

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Okay, thanks.
I don't see personal belief in Jesus as Lord and Savior in your list below.
How to reply?
After some thought....
I suppose anyone could fake Christianity,,,,
But we're talking about sincere persons that want to be saved, right?

So why would anyone who does NOT believe in Jesus want to
PRAYER ------ Pray ---- exactly who would a person be praying to if they don't believe in God?
MIRACLES --- Do non-Christians believe in miracles? Not sure. I know atheists don't.
OBEDIENCE TO JESUS ----- why would you want to obey Jesus if you don't even believe in Him?
FOLLOWING THE 10 COMMANDMENTS ---- most persons alive right now don't care to follow the 10 commandments....but Christians sure make an effort to.
FELLOWSHIPPING - GATHERING AS BELIEVERS ---- Why gather together? Isn't it to worship God? Jesus? (same thing).
LITURGICAL CELEBRATIONS ----- These are communal celebrations ---- No belief in Jesus? Why attend?
COMMUNION - REMEMBERING JESUS IN A SPECIAL WAY ----- Hope you don't need an explanation for this.
BURIAL CEREMONIES ----- OK. I give you this. Anyone could be buried with a religious service. Even atheists.
TEACHING OUR CHILDREN OUR FAITH - or the faith. ----- No comment necessary, self-explanatory.

How much of that was delivered to the saints in Judes' day?
Liturgies? Sabbatarianism? Views on the law?
What were the essentials?

In one way or another, all of the above.
It just requires some thought.
All of the above are mentioned in the NT.

I don't see personal belief in Jesus as Lord and Savior in your list above.

Maybe you don't want to.
Maybe you don't like churches.

Weren't the creeds developed to codify the essential beliefs of the faith?
What was delivered to the saints once and for all. That which we should contend for?

[
Creeds were developed to clarify Christian teachings.
There were many heresies circulated in the early church.
Happily for us the CC - yes the CC - fought those heresies and kept the faith that the Apostles had passed on.

What was delivered to the saints?
I think @Johann wrote extensively on this.

But here's my short list:
In all of the New Testament two conditions are stressed:
Belief in Jesus
Obedience to Jesus

The other teachings include:
Baptism
Being a faithful member in the Kingdom of God and how to achieve that
Caring for others
Keeping the Commandments - many warnings regarding this.
Not being a part of the world.

There are probably many more,,,but I'd say that's sufficient as a reply.
 
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GodsGrace

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The essential faith, not just another world religion.

If I have an ax to grind, it is with those modern denominations (and The Church/RCC) that declare THEIR understanding of "the faith" is superior to all other understandings. Which results in an "us versus them" mentality of condemnation for everyone outside of THEIR tribe.

[
Two comments:
1. EVERY denomination thinks they got everything right.

2. The CC was not so "modern" before this Pope. In fact, the CC is the denomination that most kept to biblical obedience to God.
I can't really say that at this point, some damage has been done.

Think of all the denominations that have caved in to pressure from the world to adapt ITS faith.
 

St. SteVen

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How to reply?
After some thought....
I suppose anyone could fake Christianity,,,,
But we're talking about sincere persons that want to be saved, right?

So why would anyone who does NOT believe in Jesus want to
PRAYER ------ Pray ---- exactly who would a person be praying to if they don't believe in God?
MIRACLES --- Do non-Christians believe in miracles? Not sure. I know atheists don't.
OBEDIENCE TO JESUS ----- why would you want to obey Jesus if you don't even believe in Him?
FOLLOWING THE 10 COMMANDMENTS ---- most persons alive right now don't care to follow the 10 commandments....but Christians sure make an effort to.
FELLOWSHIPPING - GATHERING AS BELIEVERS ---- Why gather together? Isn't it to worship God? Jesus? (same thing).
LITURGICAL CELEBRATIONS ----- These are communal celebrations ---- No belief in Jesus? Why attend?
COMMUNION - REMEMBERING JESUS IN A SPECIAL WAY ----- Hope you don't need an explanation for this.
BURIAL CEREMONIES ----- OK. I give you this. Anyone could be buried with a religious service. Even atheists.
TEACHING OUR CHILDREN OUR FAITH - or the faith. ----- No comment necessary, self-explanatory.
Again, the question is about the meaning of "the faith" in Jude 1:3.
What did "the faith" mean when Jude wrote his epistle?

And, did Jesus promote the Ten Commandments? (nope) Neither did the Apostle Paul.


[
 

Wick Stick

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Are you saved by faith, or by "the Faith"? Let's discuss both sides.
I'm not sure there's a meaningful difference between the two.

When one believes like Abraham ("faith"), they are adopted as Abraham's child, which makes them part of THE Faith. Salvation is for Abraham's children.

Discussion questions;
1) Is the basis for your salvation a personal decision to follow God, or to follow the church?
If the Church is functioning correctly, then It is acting as the agent of God. Again, there would be no meaningful difference.

So, asking the question is really just an indicator that you DON'T think the church is following God very well. Perhaps we are... freelancing... with our doctrines and actions. I would agree with that.

But I'm not sure that a question that is predicated on our failures is worth answering. E.g. If 2+2=5, then what is 3+3? Nobody cares, because the premise of the question contains a flaw.

2) If your salvation is in "the Faith", who prescribed what that means?
Membership in the group is necessary for salvation. Agreement with God is required. Agreement with the group on every matter is NOT required, except to the extent that the group agrees with God.
 
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St. SteVen

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Two comments:
1. EVERY denomination thinks they got everything right.
That's an overstatement, but I understand what you mean.

2. The CC was not so "modern" before this Pope. In fact, the CC is the denomination that most kept to biblical obedience to God.
I can't really say that at this point, some damage has been done.
Is the "CC" the Catholic Church? If so:
- Not a denomination. Denominations are Protestant.
- The Protestant reformation was due to disobedience to God by the Catholic Church.

Think of all the denominations that have caved in to pressure from the world to adapt ITS faith.
Really?
What about ordaining practicing homosexuals as priests in the Catholic Church?
And the cover-ups for sexual abuse?

[
 

GodsGrace

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Again, the question is about the meaning of "the faith" in Jude 1:3.
What did "the faith" mean when Jude wrote his epistle?

Are you serious?
We've all answered this for you.
Time to move on.

And, did Jesus promote the Ten Commandments? (nope) Neither did the Apostle Paul.


[
This is too interesting.
Unfortunately, I'm not going to discuss this very serious topic as a by-product of a different topic.
Oh. I see, you have a thread on it.
You're very prolific, I must say.

Jesus DID promote the 10 commandments.
He said we'd better not teach that even one could be broken.
Matthew 5:23

Paul exhorted THE CHRISTIANS to obey the law and the Law of Christ.
It's The Law he fought against.

And with that, I bid you a fondue.
A yummy one.
 
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St. SteVen

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Membership in the group is necessary for salvation. Agreement with God is required. Agreement with the group on every matter is NOT required, except to the extent that the group agrees with God.
Membership in the group is necessary for salvation?
Agreement with God on every matter is required? (inferred)
Who could meet that requirement?

[
 

GodsGrace

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That's an overstatement, but I understand what you mean.
No over-statement.
EVERY denomination believes THEY have the truth.
Otherwise, why would they teach what they teach if they didn't think they were right??

Is the "CC" the Catholic Church? If so:
- Not a denomination. Denominations are Protestant.
Correct.

- The Protestant reformation was due to disobedience to God by the Catholic Church.
Correct.
But do you like the result??
I don't.
Really?
What about ordaining practicing homosexuals as priests in the Catholic Church?
Homosexuals are humans and may wish to serve God.
It has produced some problems...
but let's remember that heteros also have problems in the church, and in every church.
(denomination).

And the cover-ups for sexual abuse?

[
You won't get any argument from me.
 

St. SteVen

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Jesus DID promote the 10 commandments.
He said we'd better not teach that even one could be broken.
Matthew 5:23
I disagree, obviously.

Better check that reference.

Matthew 5:23 NIV
“Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember
that your brother or sister has something against you,

[
 

St. SteVen

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Homosexuals are humans and may wish to serve God.
It has produced some problems...
but let's remember that heteros also have problems in the church, and in every church.
(denomination).
You might be interested in these topics.


[
 

GodsGrace

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I disagree, obviously.

Better check that reference.

Matthew 5:23 NIV
“Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember
that your brother or sister has something against you,

[
Oops.
Let's see if you could figure out which verse I meant.....
Yeah. Fun time.
 

GodsGrace

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I disagree, obviously.

Better check that reference.

Matthew 5:23 NIV
“Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember
that your brother or sister has something against you,

[
You could disagree St. SteVen.
You could preach and teach that Jesus did not teach the very commandments HE gave to Moses and which are meant to be forever....
which is why the Sabbath issue always comes up.

However, He kept all of them....
and disciples are supposed to follow and learn from their teacher...

so....

It's just really silly to debate this.
So I won't.