Understanding what is the "Abomination of Desolation".

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Douggg

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And that is exactly what happened. Pagan Rome fell and was replaced by papal Rome and the little horn in 500 AD.
Hi CTK, it sounds like you are SDA ?

I don't have any problem with SDA's personally, but I do disagree with some of SDA beliefs... such as the pope/papacy is the Antichrist.
 

Douggg

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4) If you notice in 9:24 -27, everything is tied together:
a) the last 7 years of the prophecy He would fulfill the 6 requirements,
Before getting to Daniel 9:24, it is important to note what vision would be completed within the 70 weeks. We start with verse 21.

21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.

When Daniel first encountered Gabriel, it was in Daniel 8, which Gabriel informed Daniel that the vision he had about the little horn person is time of the end. Daniel 8:17. The little horn person will stop the daily sacrifice, at the time of end. Daniel 8:11-13.

Daniel, in Daniel 8:27, said he didn't understand it. So in Daniel 9:22, Gabriel says he is going to help Daniel understand that vision.

22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.

Then in Daniel 9:23, Gabriel reaffirms "consider the vision", i.e. the time of the end vision about the little horn person stopping the daily sacrifice.

23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

"understand the matter", Gabriel was also going enlighten Daniel that since the time of Babylonian captivity was about up, what lay ahead for his people, the Jews, and Jerusalem.

So we get to Daniel 9:24. The part about "to seal up the vision and prophecy", it is talking about the time of the end vision of the little horn person who will stop the daily sacrifice. And the little horn person will, in the end, attempt to stand up against the Prince of prince - Jesus. Daniel 8:25, and will be broken, but not by human hand, i.e. Jesus is going to break him.


24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

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So when we get to the 70th week, that 7 years is time of the end. The 2300 days about the little horn person is the last 2300 days of that 7 years. The 7 years in Ezekiel 39:9, following the Gog/Magog event is the same 7 years of the 70th week of Daniel 9. So there is multiple validations in scripture that the 70th week is still forthcoming.
 

CTK

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Hi CTK, it sounds like you are SDA ?

I don't have any problem with SDA's personally, but I do disagree with some of SDA beliefs... such as the pope/papacy is the Antichrist.
No, I am not an SDA, I am not privy to all their rules, practices and beliefs, I do understand they do two things that most Chistian denomination do not adhere to: They believe in Sola Srcritura, and the Testimony of Jesus.

I also know they are huge fans of the Book of Daniel and have very specific beliefs that they hold on to tightly. But I have to keep in mind that they are their "interpretations of Daniel" and not their worship of Jesus and His Scriptures.
 

CTK

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Before getting to Daniel 9:24, it is important to note what vision would be completed within the 70 weeks. We start with verse 21.

21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, evenIthe man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.
I believe Daniel is referring to the Chapter 8 vision.
When Daniel first encountered Gabriel, it was in Daniel 8, which Gabriel informed Daniel that the vision he had about the little horn person is time of the end. Daniel 8:17.

I agree. Here Gabriel will use the word vision and in Hebrew, it refers specifically to the word "chazon." There are 9 times in the Chapter 8 where you will find the word "vision." Six of them translate to "chazon," while the remaining three mean "mareh." The "chazon" vision is a long term vision and this covers the period from 457 BC to the second coming of the Messiah. The "mareh" vision is a short term "appearance" type vision. Very different and intentional.

The chazon vision covers the period from 457 BC to the end of time,
The 70 weeks of years prophecy in Chapter 9 covers the period 457 BC to 33/34 AD, consequently, it is found within the "chazon" vision,
The "mareh" vision or the "appearance" vision specifically occurs within the last week of the 70 weeks of years prophecy (not vision) and directly refers to the "appearance" of the coming Messiah during the final week of the 70.


Daniel, in Daniel 8:27, said he didn't understand it. So in Daniel 9:22, Gabriel says he is going to help Daniel understand that vision.

22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.

Then in Daniel 9:23, Gabriel reaffirms "consider the vision", i.e. the time of the end vision about the little horn person stopping the daily sacrifice.

23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

"understand the matter", Gabriel was also going enlighten Daniel that since the time of Babylonian captivity was about up, what lay ahead for his people, the Jews, and Jerusalem.
Great points!!!! In 8:27, Daniel admits he does not understand. And in this verse, he specifically uses the term "mareh" vision. Again, this is the appearance type vision. In 8:14, he is given the very specific time element related to the "mareh" vision only... not the actual revealing of the "mareh" vision. And it is God Himself who is giving Daniel the 2300 evenings and mornings time element - not Gabriel. And because there is no details provided by either God or Gabriel regarding the time element, Daniel has absolutely no way to comprehend the meaning of this.... and to be candid, even today no one has properly interpreted it.

If we move to 9:22, Gabriel will now provide Daniel with the 70 weeks of years prophecy - he will give him skill and understanding of the "mareh" vision - the short term appearance vision mentioned in 9:23. So, in Chapter 8 Daniel was only given the time element by God for the "mareh" vision and now in Chapter 9, Gabriel will give him the understanding of the "mareh" vision by giving him the 70 weeks of years prophecy where, in the last week of the 70, the "mareh" vision will take place.


So we get to Daniel 9:24. The part about "to seal up the vision and prophecy", it is talking about the time of the end vision of the little horn person who will stop the daily sacrifice.
I believe it is safe to say that almost 99.999999% of interpreters contend this is indeed telling us to "seal up or shut up" the vision and the prophecy. But that is not want is meant. The visions and prophecies beginning with Chapter 7 and through to 12, are written in Hebrew. They will be only written by Daniel AFTER Cyrus takes the throne. The visions and prophecies within these specific chapters are written JUST FOR THE JEWS AND THE CITY. They are unlike the earlier visions or dreams in the first 6 chapters when Daniel would provide the dream or interpretations to the king. These are not meant to be given or interpreted to any king, including Cyrus. They are meant to be given to his people and included in the the "Book of Daniel." so his people, when they return to Jerusalem, can read, study and interpret them in preparation for their coming Messiah.

Consequently, they do not meant to shut or seal them up and keep them a secret as almost all claim, rather, they are a finished and complete set of messianic prophecies that are only meant for the Jews to interpret. And this makes total sense, including the statements in Matthew and Mark where Jesus tells or refers directly to the Book of Daniel regarding the "when you see the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place....." let him understand.... These are not end time prophecies although they will include general comments about what will take place until the end of time.....but most of Daniel covers the most important time in the history of mankind - the first coming of the Messiah.... as well as it should be.

And the little horn person will, in the end, attempt to stand up against the Prince of prince - Jesus. Daniel 8:25, and will be broken, but not by human hand, i.e. Jesus is going to break him.

Verse 8:25 is discussing the little horn of Daniel 7 and 8. This is speaking about the little horn (papacy) who will come after pagan Rome is slain and its body is destroyed (7:11) and within a 100 years, papal Rome will come to full power. This is the one who will continue until the end of time when God will destroy him .... "without human hands."


End of part 1.... apparently, there is a word limit here...


24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.















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So when we get to the 70th week, that 7 years is time of the end. The 2300 days about the little horn person is the last 2300 days of that 7 years. The 7 years in Ezekiel 39:9, following the Gog/Magog event is the same 7 years of the 70th week of Daniel 9. So there is multiple validations in scripture that the 70th week is still forthcoming.
 

CTK

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Before getting to Daniel 9:24, it is important to note what vision would be completed within the 70 weeks. We start with verse 21.

21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.

When Daniel first encountered Gabriel, it was in Daniel 8, which Gabriel informed Daniel that the vision he had about the little horn person is time of the end. Daniel 8:17. The little horn person will stop the daily sacrifice, at the time of end. Daniel 8:11-13.

Daniel, in Daniel 8:27, said he didn't understand it. So in Daniel 9:22, Gabriel says he is going to help Daniel understand that vision.

22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.

Then in Daniel 9:23, Gabriel reaffirms "consider the vision", i.e. the time of the end vision about the little horn person stopping the daily sacrifice.

23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

"understand the matter", Gabriel was also going enlighten Daniel that since the time of Babylonian captivity was about up, what lay ahead for his people, the Jews, and Jerusalem.


Beginning of Part 2
So we get to Daniel 9:24. The part about "to seal up the vision and prophecy", it is talking about the time of the end vision of the little horn person who will stop the daily sacrifice. And the little horn person will, in the end, attempt to stand up against the Prince of prince - Jesus. Daniel 8:25, and will be broken, but not by human hand, i.e. Jesus is going to break him.

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
In 9:24, Gabriel will give Daniel the prophecy that includes both the physical and spiritual elements that will be completely restored after they were either taken away or destroyed by the Babylonians. The 490 year period will be carved up into 3 specific timed sections. Each section has been given their own time element, their own mission (things that are to be restored within that section), and it also identifies just who is to complete those elements to be restored.


If you look at the verses, Gabriel will provide these three elements for the firs and the third timed sections ONLY. The first 7 weeks will reveal the obligations of the Jews when they return to Jerusalem - and they would fulfill them. The third timed section is specifically given to the Messiah to fulfill.

All of the physical elements will be restored by the Jews by the time of the END of the 69th week. Those physical elements would be restored in the reverse order they were either taken or destroyed. The ONLY element the Jews could not possibly restore would be the very first piece of furniture taken away from the Sanctuary. The Ark of the Covenant was taken away by Jeremiah so the Babylonians could not gain access to it. Consequently, this must be the last element to be restored, and it will be fully restored by the coming of the Messiah. On the very first day of the 70th week, Jesus would arrive to be baptized in the Jordan by John AND anointed by His Father. Jesus would travel throughout Isreal preaching the Good News but on the 4th Passover that would take place from the beginning of HIs ministry, He would be rejected by His people and crucified. However, He would indeed fulfill all 6 elements of His God given mission mentioned in 9:24. Now in this verse, Daniel will use the long term word for vision "chazon." Here is is telling us the short term vision of 8:14 (last week of the prophecy) that is within the Chapter 9 prophecy, which is within the "chazon" or long term vision, have been completed and written down in the Scriptures through the Book of Daniel. Just as the Temple and the Sanctuary are copies of what is found in heaven, God's Word which is also found in heaven MUST be written here on earth within His Scriptures. Daniel had been so close to being killed many times during his time in exile, but each time, God would intervene. The very last time was in Chapter 6 and the lion's den scene. If Michael was not sent by God to shut the mouth of the lion's Daniel would not have written any of the Hebrew chapters. Thus, now all of the Hebrew chapters - the visions and prophecies will indeed be recorded in the Book of Daniel. Chapter 6 was the last time Satan would attempt, or be allowed to attempt to destroy the Word of God - the recording of the Book of Daniel prior to His first coming. Not one word, not one jot or title will come back to God unless it succeeded ..... Daniel's visions and prophecies and the Chapter 11 and 12 visions will indeed be written and documented in the Tanakh.


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So when we get to the 70th week, that 7 years is time of the end. The 2300 days about the little horn person is the last 2300 days of that 7 years. The 7 yea
rs in Ezekiel 39:9, following the Gog/Magog event is the same 7 years of the 70th week of Daniel 9. So there is multiple validations in scripture that the 70th week is still forthcoming.

Dougg, I can not talk about the Book of Revelation... I have not studied it. Only Daniel. But the 70th week of the prophecy cannot be separated from the other two timed sections. They are all within the 70 weeks prophecy. The Messiah was given the last week when He would arrive (AFTER, NOT BEFORE OR WITHIN OR DURING THE 69TH WEEK), but He would arrive on the very first day to begin His ministry. This is when He would fulfill His God given mission and 9:24 -27 is all about Him. Certainly, within these 4 verses it predicts the destruction of the city and the sanctuary (70 AD) AND the complete "desolation" of His people for the next 2000 years (time of the Gentiles) because they rejected Him, but these are necessary. The first two verses of 24 and 25 are the "restorative" verses and discuss His mission, His arrival, the restoration of Jerusalem, the walls and the city, etc. Conversely, verses 26 and 27 reveal the "destructive" verses that will come about as direct result of His people rejecting and crucifying Him. Notice both sides discuss the Messiah, the city and the mision or restoration of things. One is going up the mountain, so to speak and the other two verses discuss the consequences of His crucifixion.

The 2300 evenings and mornings vision represents how Jesus would cleanse the HEAVENLY Sanctuary during the last week of the prophecy. This was His misison to offer Himself as the Perfect Sacrifice for the sin of the world. Unlike the animal sacrifices (that took place in the evening and the mornings), His sacrifice would do away with them and the offerings forever. Now, if we believe in Jesus and the cross, our sins will be forgiven. Take a look at what took place in Acts with Stephen. Before he was stoned to death, he looked up and saw Jesus standing next to the Father in heaven..... telling us His sacrifice was indeed accepted by His Father.







Insert quotes…
 

Douggg

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Dougg, I can not talk about the Book of Revelation... I have not studied it. Only Daniel. But the 70th week of the prophecy cannot be separated from the other two timed sections.
I have studied Revelation and other parts of the bible for over 50 years. I am non-denominational and don't present any specific group's point of view.

I also have discussed with Jews (Judaism) at their countermissionary site, Messiah Truth, about what they believe ever since 2004, and have made over 10,000 posts there learning what they believe - which that experience has given me insights, that most Christians do not have, as to how the Jews will mistakenly think the prince that shall come is their long awaited King of Israel messiah - for a while.

The 70th week is the same 7 years as in Ezekiel 39:9 that follow the destruction of Gog's army (of the Gog/Magog group). Gog/Magog to happen in the near future, some time before the end of 2030.

It is critical to know and understand Ezekiel 39 as it gives the timeline framework for the 7 years.

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Daniel 9 does not reference the messiah's ministry time.... just unto messiah. Which Jesus arrived in Jerusalem in John 12:12-15 hailed as the messiah. Four days later, Jesus was crucified, cutoff. The 70th week is still unfulfilled and begins when the prince that shall come will confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant (the covenant that Daniel referred to in his prayer in the earlier verses in Daniel 9) for 7 years.

The "for 7 years" is in Deuteronomy 31:9-13 as a requirement Moses made of all future leaders of Israel, to confirm that God gave the land to the children of Israel and their seed, forever. The confirmation process will be a big speech from the temple mount by the Antichrist, who will have been anointed the King of Israel perceived messiah by the false prophet.

The Antichrist person has to be a Jew. That eliminates the pope/papacy from being the Antichrist.
 
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CTK

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I have studied Revelation and other parts of the bible for over 50 years. I am non-denominational and don't present any specific group's point of view.

I also have discussed with Jews (Judaism) at their countermissionary site, Messiah Truth, about what they believe ever since 2004, and have made over 10,000 posts there learning what they believe - which that experience has given me insights, that most Christians do not have, as to how the Jews will mistakenly think the prince that shall come is their long awaited King of Israel messiah - for a while.

The 70th week is the same 7 years as in Ezekiel 39:9 that follow the destruction of Gog's army (of the Gog/Magog group). Gog/Magog to happen in the near future, some time before the end of 2030.

It is critical to know and understand Ezekiel 39 as it gives the timeline framework for the 7 years.
Dougg, thanks, although there certainly are passages in the OT like Ezekiel, Jerimiah, etc., that speak not only to Daniel but to the end times, I would ask you to consider the 70 weeks of years prophecy as one consecutive period... the entire prophecy is about the restoration of the Jews and Jerusalem - not an endtime prophecy. The prophecy specifically identifies the 3 separate sections where the specific items will be restored and by whom... The Messiah DID arrive on the first day of the 70th week. It is so clear, to me, that He came AFTER the 7 and 62 weeks were completed... one cannot escape that... the Chapter 9 prophecy is about the coming of the Messiah... the last 7 years are the most important time element within the 70 weeks. This prophecy was written for "Daniel's people and Daniel's city....

I will certainly look at Ezekiel later on but I ask you to think about how perfectly those verses speak to the final period of the restoration. If the 7 years do not refer to the Messiah and what would take place during His ministry, where does it mention it in Daniel? Do you really believe God is going to leave out the most important week in man's history.... there is absolutely no basis for throwing the last 7 years out into the far future - some 2000 years. Again, this was all conceived by the papacy in the 16th century. Clearly, Jesus traveled throughout Israel for 3.5 years AFTER He was baptized in the Jordan. And He definitely was crucified on the 4th Passover festival that He attended which came exactly at 3.5 years (in the midst of the week). What do you do with all of that if it does not point to the Messiah? How can anyone thrown 9:24-27 some 2000 years in the future and ignore what He would accomplish AFTER the end of the 69th week, or even throw the last half of the final week into the future? These weeks are a propheecy of the complete restoration of everything back to what it was prior to the Babylonian destruction - especially the restoration of the Ark of the Covenant in the form of the Messiah.

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Daniel 9 does not reference the messiah's ministry time.... just unto messiah.
Dougg, come on! Of course it does... After 7 and 62 weeks the Messiah....This is the beginning of His ministry.

Which Jesus arrived in Jerusalem in John 12:12-15 hailed as the messiah. Four days later, Jesus was crucified, cutoff.

Totally agree. This was His final visit to Jerusalem which occurred exactly 3.5 years after He began His ministry. (He would be "cut off" in the midst of the week"). - in the middle of the last week of the prophecy.
The 70th week is still unfulfilled and begins when the prince that shall come will confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant (the covenant that Daniel referred to in his prayer in the earlier verses in Daniel 9) for 7 years.W
Dougg. I have given you all I have... If you want to believe these are end time prophecies and they don't speak to the Messiah's first coming, fine. Read Jeremiah 31:31-34 which identifies what covenant the Messiah will CONFIRM.

The "for 7 years" is in Deuteronomy 31:9-13 as a requirement Moses made of all future leaders of Israel, to confirm that God gave the land to the children of Israel and their seed, forever. The confirmation process will be a big speech from the temple mount by the Antichrist, who will have been anointed the King of Israel perceived messiah by the false prophet.
Sorry Dougg, this is all nonsense. To be candid, I don't understand how anyone cannot see how these verses are intertwined and relate not only to the actual events that took place in the last 3.5 years of the 7 years, but how it joins with the first 20 verses in Chapter 9 - Daniel goes to great lengths to speak about the sin of his people and need for forgiveness and the covenant his people have with their God.... it walks right into the most spectacular 7 years in our history - when the Messiah would forgive His people and be the Perfect Sacrifice for the sin of mankind.

There is absoulutely no boogeyman / antiChrist figure or an agreement he makes with Israel at the end of time... etc. Google Father Ribera of the Jesuits to learn a little bit about what he concevied at the commission of the papacy.. This is where all the BS (7 year tribulation theory) came from.

The Antichrist person has to be a Jew. That eliminates the pope/papacy from being the Antichrist.
I will tell you what... show me where anywhere in Daniel or Revelation tells us that an "antiChrist" figure will come at the end of days and enter into an agreement with Israel. Tell me also, who the little horn of Daniel 7 and 8 is by using the actual verses in Daniel. There is definitiely a little horn. an evil one (Chapter 11), that is given much ink in Daniel 7 and 8, but no anti-Christ figure. Again, there are 4 times in the NT only where the term "antiChrist" is found --- I believe ther are all in Peter, and they ONLY speak of the "spirit of an antiChrist." That is, one who preaches a different Gospel, disobeys the commands of God, etc. but NO literal antiChrist figure.
 
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covenantee

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Again, there are 4 times in the NT only where the term "antiChrist" is found --- I believe ther are all in Peter, and they ONLY speak of the "spirit of an antiChrist."
They're in John's epistles.

In 1 Johnn 2:18, John declares that many antichrists were already present when he wrote.

This demolishes dispensational futurism's Jesuit single antichrist.
 

Douggg

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the entire prophecy is about the restoration of the Jews and Jerusalem - not an endtime prophecy

The 70th week part is end times because the vision in verses 21,22,23,24 are of the time of the end little horn's person's activities of Daniel 8, 2300 days in length.

Ezekiel 39:9, those 7 years are the 7 years of the 70th week.

On my timeline chart below is the 2300 days (Daniel 8:11-14) and the time/times/half time (Daniel 7:25) - of the little horn.

At the end of the 7 years is Armageddon in Ezekiel 39:17-20 Please compare that text with Revelation 19:17-18.

In Ezekiel 39:21-29, Jesus Himself is speaking in the text having returned to this earth, His Second Coming.
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Gog Magog 7months4 .jpg
 

Douggg

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I will tell you what... show me where anywhere in Daniel or Revelation tells us that an "antiChrist" figure will come at the end of days and enter into an agreement with Israel.
The Antichrist does not enter into a covenant with Israel. Israel entered into a covenant with God at Mt. Sinai in the exodus out of Egypt.

That is the covenant that the Jews still go by. And is the covenant that the Antichrist will confirm for the 7 year cycle required by Moses in Deuteronomy 31:9-13.

The prince that shall come (the little horn person), immediately following Gog/Magog, will be perceived by the Jews as their long awaited King of Israel messiah.

Jesus is the true King of Israel messiah. But was rejected by his own people, the Jews, in that capacity, John 1:11, when they chose Barabbas over Jesus.. In John 12:12-15, Jesus's followers hailed him as the King of Israel that comes in the name of the Lord, i.e. the messiah.

John 12:13 Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.

In John 5:43, Jesus said (paraphrased) that the Jews would reject Him - coming in the name of Lord, i.e. as the person God sent to be their King of Israel - but would embrace another (Jew) who will come in his own name, i.e. a person not sent by God to be their King of Israel.

So the Antichrist person - to become the Antichrist, must be anointed the King of Israel - by a known prophet according to the beliefs of Judaism (most Christians don't know their beliefs). That so-called known prophet will be the "false prophet" of Revelation 13, who the Jews will initially think is Elijah the prophet. But will later reject that notion.
 
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CTK

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The 70th week part is end times because the vision in verses 21,22,23,24 are of the time of the end little horn's person's activities of Daniel 8, 2300 days in length.

Ezekiel 39:9, those 7 years are the 7 years of the 70th week.

On my timeline chart below is the 2300 days (Daniel 8:11-14) and the time/times/half time (Daniel 7:25) - of the little horn.

At the end of the 7 years is Armageddon in Ezekiel 39:17-20 Please compare that text with Revelation 19:17-18.

In Ezekiel 39:21-29, Jesus Himself is speaking in the text having returned to this earth, His Second Coming.
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View attachment 49431
Oh, I apologize, I did not go and look at Ezekiel... I just looked at Ezekiel 39:21-29 and although I did not spend too much time on it, here is what I think in MIGHT be speaking about;

1) verses 21-24, God is referring to the Jews that have rejected and crucified their Messiah in the last week of the prophecy. As a result of their actions, God had "made desolate" His people from Him...Meaning, as a result of their "abominable act (because the cross is the AOD), God would turn away from His people for 2000 years - the time of the Gentiles. He has "hidden His face" from them as punishment for their rejection and the crucifixion. When God deems it so, He will remove the blindness from their eyes and they will recognize the One they had pierced. At that time (true end times), they will go out into the world and preach God's Word and the Testimony of Jesus for 3.5 years. This will bring an end to the 4th and final Great Jubilel cycle which began in 457 BC and stopped exactly at the time of the cross. In the last week of the prophecy, 3.5 years after the beginning of His ministry, He would be crucified - at this point in time, the counting of the 4th Great Jubilee cycle was at 486.5 years of the required 490 years. It would have been completed at the same time as the ending of the 70 weeks of years prophecy.... Consequently, the Jews MUST complete this 4th GJ cycle and the only way they can do this is to be back in the graces of their God.

There is nothing I see at all in these verses that speak of a 7 year period at all - but they are definitely end time events.

Again, I think I mentioned this before, but the 2300 evenings and mornings time element speaks only to the last week in the 70 weeks of years prophecy. It took me at least 5 months to interpret this.... after reading and trying to understand those interpretations that most follow... but none of them made any sense to me.... Please, if you will, tell me what is the purpose of the 2300 time element? It definitely has its own purpose.... if you find that purpose, then you should be able to identify the only One who can fulfill that purpose. Once you answer that question, you then should focus on the Messiah's first coming and His mission within the last 7 years of the prophecy... once again, it is all about our Messiah. The Messiah's first coming and His sacrifice on the cross:

1) had done away with any further need of animal sacrifices and offerings. His sacrifice would once and for all atone for our sins - should we place our faith and trust in Him and His work on the cross,

2) as a result of the cross, the Temple and the Sanctuary and the 4 Spring feast days have all been fulfilled. Their purpose is not longer needed. Remember, all of these things were completely destoryed by the Babylonians. But God would not allow any group or man to destroy (forever) His holy Temple, the Sanctuary, the holy vessels, etc. - Because God never would have them DESTROYED - that was not to be ... it was within God's plan of salvation for them to be FULFILLED and this would only take place when He arrived at would be our Holy Temple, our High Priest, our Passover Lamb,...after the cross their mission on earth was fufilled and would no longer house the presence of God, nor sacrifices or offerings or have any value to God. They were all a type and shadow so it is not correct to try and continue placing a value on a 3rd Temple or future sacrifices, etc., The only thing that does is to disavowal those things that were fulfilled by the Messiah at the cross.

Again, most / almost all of Daniel is concerned with His people and His city at the time of the coming of the Messiah on the very first day of the 70th week - He did not come before or during the 69th week.
 

Douggg

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Tell me also, who the little horn of Daniel 7 and 8 is by using the actual verses in Daniel. There is definitiely a little horn. an evil one (Chapter 11), that is given much ink in Daniel 7 and 8, but no anti-Christ figure.
The person in question in Daniel 7 and Daniel 8 goes through 5 successive stages, evolving, on the way to his demise.

The person is not called the Antichrist, nor the prince that shall come, nor the revealed man of sin, nor the beast (king), directly, in either Daniel 7 or Daniel 8.

But in Daniel 8:25, he does meet his end, broken by Jesus, at the time which he will have evolved into the beast (king) of Revelation. In Revelation 19:20, he will be cast alive into the lake of fire.

The five successive stages:

1. starts as the little horn - leader over a group of ten EU leaders. The EU being the manifestation of the fourth kingdom of Daniel 7, the Roman Empire, in the end times.

2. as the prince that shall come - into the middle east, on the premise of being peace keeper in the region, following the Gog/Magog event of Ezekiel 39.

3. as the Antichrist - perceived messiah by the Jews. Anointed the King of Israel by the false prophet. And will confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant for the 7 year cycle required by Moses in Deuteronomy 31:9-13 of all future leaders of Israel.

4. as the revealed man of sin - when he goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood - the transgression of desolation act of Daniel 8:13. i.e. transgression of the Mt. Sinai covenant that he had confirmed earlier in the 7 years.

5. as the beast (king) of Revelation - after being assassinated for his audacious act (Ezekiel 28:1-10) and then being brought back to life by God in disdain for the person (Isaiah14:18-20, he will become possessed by the spirit of the garden of eden serpent beast which will be allowed to ascend out of the bottomless pit.

As the beast (king), he will be dictator over the EU as the ten EU leaders hand their kingdom over to him (Revelation 17:17).
 
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Douggg

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Oh, I apologize, I did not go and look at Ezekiel... I just looked at Ezekiel 39:21-29 and although I did not spend too much time on it, here is what I think in MIGHT be speaking about;
CTK,

Ezekiel 39:17-20 Armageddon event = Revelation 19:17-18

Ezekiel 39:21 Jesus speaking in the text...

21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

And I will set my glory among the heathen, = Jesus returned to this earth, to rule over the nations.

all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them. = Jesus just destroyed the armies gathered at Armageddon to make war on Him.

-----------------------------------------------------

22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward. = the Jews will finally realize who Jesus is.
 

CTK

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CTK,

Ezekiel 39:17-20 Armageddon event = Revelation 19:17-18

Ezekiel 39:21 Jesus speaking in the text...

21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

And I will set my glory among the heathen, = Jesus returned to this earth, to rule over the nations.

all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them. = Jesus just destroyed the armies gathered at Armageddon to make war on Him.

-----------------------------------------------------

22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward. = the Jews will finally realize who Jesus is.
Dougg, if you do not mind, I will respond to your previous response tomorrow, but, unless I am mistaken, we see Ezekiel the same?
 

Douggg

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Please, if you will, tell me what is the purpose of the 2300 time element
The beginning of the 2300 days is when the animal sacrifices begin again. Which later in the 2300 days that the little horn (as the Antichrist) will stop when he commits the transgression of desolation act of Daniel 8:13 and 2Thesslaonians2:4.

The 2300 days give an indication when the animal sacrifices will begin again - in the completion of a new temple built. The temple will be initially downsized in the Jews' fervor to re-institute temple activities following the Gog/Magog event. The temple sanctuary building only has to be 30 ft x 15 ft if patterned after the tent tabernacle in the Exodus.

On my timeline chart below, I show the temple built in the first 7 months following Gog/Magog. The Jews can not build a temple on the temple mount now because of the Muslim presence on the temple mount. But with the Gog/Magog event, that will change and the Muslim presence will be gone, as well as the Dome of the Rock and the Al-aqsa mosque.



Gog Magog 7months4 .jpg
 
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Douggg

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Dougg, if you do not mind, I will respond to your previous response tomorrow, but, unless I am mistaken, we see Ezekiel the same?
Sure, take your time. And get some rest.
 
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CTK

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The person in question in Daniel 7 and Daniel 8 goes through 5 successive stages, evolving, on the way to his demise.

The person is not called the Antichrist, nor the prince that shall come, nor the revealed man of sin, nor the beast (king), directly, in either Daniel 7 or Daniel 8.

But in Daniel 8:25, he does meet his end, broken by Jesus, at the time which he will have evolved into the beast (king) of Revelation. In Revelation 19:20, he will be cast alive into the lake of fire.

The five successive stages:

1. starts as the little horn - leader over a group of ten EU leaders. The EU being the manifestation of the fourth kingdom of Daniel 7, the Roman Empire, in the end times.

2. as the prince that shall come - into the middle east, on the premise of being peace keeper in the region, following the Gog/Magog event of Ezekiel 39.

3. as the Antichrist - perceived messiah by the Jews. Anointed the King of Israel by the false prophet. And will confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant for the 7 year cycle required by Moses in Deuteronomy 31:9-13 of a future leaders of Israel.

4. as the revealed man of sin - when he goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood - the transgression of desolation act of Daniel 8:13. i.e. transgression of the Mt. Sinai covenant that he had confirmed earlier in the 7 years.

5. as the beast (king) of Revelation - after being assassinated for his audacious act (Ezekiel 28:1-10) and then being brought back to life by God in disdain for the person (Isaiah14:18-20, he will become possessed by the spirit of the garden of eden serpent beast which will be allowed to ascend out of the bottomless pit.

As the beast (king), he will be dictator over the EU as the ten EU leaders hand their kingdom over to him (Revelation 17:17).
Thanks Dougg! But doesn't this little horn come out of the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome? And, in 7:11, pagan Rome will be slain and its body is destroyed. He must come out before that event happens....and he will continue until the end of time when he is destroyed without human hands. He will continue.... he will not come at the end of time.... he will continue since he took power after the demise of pagan Rome. What do you think?
 

CTK

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The beginning of the 2300 days is when the animal sacrifices begin again. Which later in the 2300 days that the little horn (as the Antichrist) will stop when he commits the transgression of desolation act of Daniel 8:13 and 2Thesslaonians2:4.

The 2300 days give an indication when the animal sacrifices will begin again - in the completion of a new temple built. The temple will be initially downsized in the Jews' fervor to re-institute temple activities following the Gog/Magog event. The temple sanctuary building only has to be 30 ft x 15 ft if patterned after the tent tabernacle in the Exodus.

On my timeline chart below, I show the temple built in the first 7 months following Gog/Magog. The Jews can not build a temple on the temple mount now because of the Muslim presence on the temple mount. But with the Gog/Magog event, that will change and the Muslim presence will be gone, as well as the Dome of the Rock and the Al-aqsa mosque.



View attachment 49440
Thanks Dougg. It was some 5 months attempting to understand and interpret this time element. Every interpretation I read turned it into a secular event... whether they converted it to years or even cut the 2300 into 2 or 1150 days and attempted to match it to a event around the time of AE... But none of that made any sense to be and I believed it was just another of the most difficult verses in the Bible to unpack and properly interpret. After around 5 monts, I went back to my "approach" which I had used up to Chapter 7. This "approach" departed from what I believe everyone has applied - that is, the historical approach. Meaning, they would sit at their desk with the Book of Daniel on the left side, and their history books on the right side and attempt to find those actors and events in the history books that might fit those actors and events within Daniel's verses. And they would feel somewhat comfortable doing that since they would believed that Daniel was written, not only to matchup with our history, but also be written in chronological fashion. Example: who comes after Alexander and his 4 generals? Well, it has to be the Ptolemy's, the Seleucid's, and even further out, AE. But God is not writing a history book. And one other major flaw in their "approach:" they almost exclusively refused to try and interpret these verses as if they might apply to the coming Messiah. They continued their "secular" or "historical" approach even within the Hebrew chapters. When our history books failed to keep pace or provide a close match to the actors and events mentioned in Daniel, they would adopt a new approach - they would declare that since they could not be found in our history books, they must not have happened yet and so many were thrown far into the future some 2000 years later -and they still have not occurred according to their theory. But indeed they did take place around the time of the Messiah and they do speak to the coming Messiah and His plan of salvation for the Jews and mankind. If the coming Messiah is not found within the most prophetic book in the Bible... where is He mentioned? The 70 weeks of years prophecy is all about the restoration of His people and His city... and the most important component of that restoration is the presence of God in the Sanctuary that was taken away by Jeremiah before the Babylonians could obtain it. God would not allow the Babylonians to take the Ark of the Covenant and God would also not allow man to kill His Messiah.... Jesus said in John 10:18,

"No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”

So, I went back to my desk and I believe that God allowed me to find this (and remember, the time element of the 2300 evenings and mornings meant the Sanctuary would be cleansed. Who is the ONLY One that could do this? The Messsiah at His first coming.


Jesus would arrive on the very first day of the 70th week. That means, there would be exactly 2520 days within the last week of the prophecy (360 @ 7). There would be exactly 7 Passover feasts within this last week. However, the very first Passover was held in Jerusalem exactly 6 months AFTER He was baptized and anointed in the Jordan. From the first day of His ministry to the day of the 7th Passover within the last 7 years of the prophecy, there are exactly 2340 days. (6.5 years @ 360). Remember, this last week was "set aside" by God for His Messiah to fulfill not only the 6 elements mentioned in 9:24, but also to cleanse the Sanctuary, establish His church and within 50 days, He would send His Holy Spirit to mankind. But of course, He would be rejected and crucified... but we all can agree, that God certainly knew what was going to take place and this was always designed within His plan or salvation. But after the 7 Passover feast days within this last week, the Sanctuary, attended by Jesus would have been cleansed. There is only two remaining issues to consider:

1) The exact time period from the beginning of His ministry to that 7th Passover day was 2340 days. However, the Messiah would arrive, not only to be the Perfect sacrifice, but the High Priest, our Temple. And if you look into Leviticus, you will find that each one of these three items MUST be declared to be pure and cleansed - the Priest must be cleanese, the Temple must be declared clean, and the sacrificial animal must be free of any defects. Thus, the Messiah could not perform any of these three items unless He was also declared to be clean and pure and free of any defect / sin. (Of course we all know that Jesus had never and would not ever sin, but He would still honor the laws within Leviticus established by His Father. Consequently, to prepare Himself as being "clean or cleansed." immediately after He was baptized in the Jordan, Jesus went into the desert for exactly 40 days to be tempted by the devil. And of course, He did not disobey His Father and honored His laws and commands and did not succumb to his temptations. He would be declared free or sin and thus be able to perform as our High Priest, our Temple, our Passover lamb... all cleansed. So, these 40 days are to be subtracted from the 2340 days to arrive exactly at 2300 days. If you look for the Messiah within Daniel's verses, you will find Him.

2) Now, I am sure there may be many who would argue that Jesus did not continue on earth to the 7th Passover... and of course they are correct, but that certainly should not be enough to throw out this interpretation... only God could design such an unbelievable plan of salvation. But for those that need more.... I would ask that you accept a very different interpretation that is found in the Gospels. It also has been improperly applied to an end time scenerio (false teachings of a 7 year tribuation). In Matthew 24:22, almost everyone claims this verse speaks about some mythical antichrist figure who will destroy man / Jews after a 3.5 year midpoint of the fictitious 7 year tribulation. But that is not what Matthew was referring to...(in my opinion).

"And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened."
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In this verse, Matthew is pointing squarely at the work of the Messiah on the cross..... not looking forward some 2000 years but backwards to the cross. It was the Messiah who WILLINGLY went to the cross for the salvation of mankind. This was 3.5 years before the 7th Passover feast would have taken place. Therefore, it was JESUS WHO WILLINGLY SHORTENED THOSE DAYS (OF THE LAST WEEK) AND WENT TO THE CROSS FOR THE SALVATION OF MANKIND - without the cross, NO flesh would ever be saved... He is the only way to salvation.
 

Douggg

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Thanks Dougg! But doesn't this little horn come out of the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome? And, in 7:11, pagan Rome will be slain and its body is destroyed. He must come out before that event happens....and he will continue until the end of time when he is destroyed without human hands. He will continue.... he will not come at the end of time.... he will continue since he took power after the demise of pagan Rome. What do you think?
The labels "pagan Rome" and "papal Rome" are unique to SDA's position that the office of the pope is the Antichrist.

The fourth kingdom in Daniel 7 is the Roman Empire, which consists of more than Rome.

Does not SDA consider the office of the pope, papacy, to be the little horn - and not one specific pope or individual ? Yes? No?

In my view, I consider the little horn to be one specific person.