Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
There is no temple. Let alone a holy place. So nothing is standing there now.Look and see what is there now and you have the answer..
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
There is no temple. Let alone a holy place. So nothing is standing there now.Look and see what is there now and you have the answer..
Hi CTK, it sounds like you are SDA ?And that is exactly what happened. Pagan Rome fell and was replaced by papal Rome and the little horn in 500 AD.
Before getting to Daniel 9:24, it is important to note what vision would be completed within the 70 weeks. We start with verse 21.4) If you notice in 9:24 -27, everything is tied together:
a) the last 7 years of the prophecy He would fulfill the 6 requirements,
No, I am not an SDA, I am not privy to all their rules, practices and beliefs, I do understand they do two things that most Chistian denomination do not adhere to: They believe in Sola Srcritura, and the Testimony of Jesus.Hi CTK, it sounds like you are SDA ?
I don't have any problem with SDA's personally, but I do disagree with some of SDA beliefs... such as the pope/papacy is the Antichrist.
I believe Daniel is referring to the Chapter 8 vision.Before getting to Daniel 9:24, it is important to note what vision would be completed within the 70 weeks. We start with verse 21.
21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, evenIthe man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.
When Daniel first encountered Gabriel, it was in Daniel 8, which Gabriel informed Daniel that the vision he had about the little horn person is time of the end. Daniel 8:17.
Great points!!!! In 8:27, Daniel admits he does not understand. And in this verse, he specifically uses the term "mareh" vision. Again, this is the appearance type vision. In 8:14, he is given the very specific time element related to the "mareh" vision only... not the actual revealing of the "mareh" vision. And it is God Himself who is giving Daniel the 2300 evenings and mornings time element - not Gabriel. And because there is no details provided by either God or Gabriel regarding the time element, Daniel has absolutely no way to comprehend the meaning of this.... and to be candid, even today no one has properly interpreted it.Daniel, in Daniel 8:27, said he didn't understand it. So in Daniel 9:22, Gabriel says he is going to help Daniel understand that vision.
22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.
Then in Daniel 9:23, Gabriel reaffirms "consider the vision", i.e. the time of the end vision about the little horn person stopping the daily sacrifice.
23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.
"understand the matter", Gabriel was also going enlighten Daniel that since the time of Babylonian captivity was about up, what lay ahead for his people, the Jews, and Jerusalem.
I believe it is safe to say that almost 99.999999% of interpreters contend this is indeed telling us to "seal up or shut up" the vision and the prophecy. But that is not want is meant. The visions and prophecies beginning with Chapter 7 and through to 12, are written in Hebrew. They will be only written by Daniel AFTER Cyrus takes the throne. The visions and prophecies within these specific chapters are written JUST FOR THE JEWS AND THE CITY. They are unlike the earlier visions or dreams in the first 6 chapters when Daniel would provide the dream or interpretations to the king. These are not meant to be given or interpreted to any king, including Cyrus. They are meant to be given to his people and included in the the "Book of Daniel." so his people, when they return to Jerusalem, can read, study and interpret them in preparation for their coming Messiah.So we get to Daniel 9:24. The part about "to seal up the vision and prophecy", it is talking about the time of the end vision of the little horn person who will stop the daily sacrifice.
And the little horn person will, in the end, attempt to stand up against the Prince of prince - Jesus. Daniel 8:25, and will be broken, but not by human hand, i.e. Jesus is going to break him.
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
-----------------------------------------------------------
So when we get to the 70th week, that 7 years is time of the end. The 2300 days about the little horn person is the last 2300 days of that 7 years. The 7 years in Ezekiel 39:9, following the Gog/Magog event is the same 7 years of the 70th week of Daniel 9. So there is multiple validations in scripture that the 70th week is still forthcoming.
Before getting to Daniel 9:24, it is important to note what vision would be completed within the 70 weeks. We start with verse 21.
21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.
When Daniel first encountered Gabriel, it was in Daniel 8, which Gabriel informed Daniel that the vision he had about the little horn person is time of the end. Daniel 8:17. The little horn person will stop the daily sacrifice, at the time of end. Daniel 8:11-13.
Daniel, in Daniel 8:27, said he didn't understand it. So in Daniel 9:22, Gabriel says he is going to help Daniel understand that vision.
22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.
Then in Daniel 9:23, Gabriel reaffirms "consider the vision", i.e. the time of the end vision about the little horn person stopping the daily sacrifice.
23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.
"understand the matter", Gabriel was also going enlighten Daniel that since the time of Babylonian captivity was about up, what lay ahead for his people, the Jews, and Jerusalem.
In 9:24, Gabriel will give Daniel the prophecy that includes both the physical and spiritual elements that will be completely restored after they were either taken away or destroyed by the Babylonians. The 490 year period will be carved up into 3 specific timed sections. Each section has been given their own time element, their own mission (things that are to be restored within that section), and it also identifies just who is to complete those elements to be restored.So we get to Daniel 9:24. The part about "to seal up the vision and prophecy", it is talking about the time of the end vision of the little horn person who will stop the daily sacrifice. And the little horn person will, in the end, attempt to stand up against the Prince of prince - Jesus. Daniel 8:25, and will be broken, but not by human hand, i.e. Jesus is going to break him.
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
rs in Ezekiel 39:9, following the Gog/Magog event is the same 7 years of the 70th week of Daniel 9. So there is multiple validations in scripture that the 70th week is still forthcoming.----------------------------------------------------------
So when we get to the 70th week, that 7 years is time of the end. The 2300 days about the little horn person is the last 2300 days of that 7 years. The 7 yea
I have studied Revelation and other parts of the bible for over 50 years. I am non-denominational and don't present any specific group's point of view.Dougg, I can not talk about the Book of Revelation... I have not studied it. Only Daniel. But the 70th week of the prophecy cannot be separated from the other two timed sections.
Dougg, thanks, although there certainly are passages in the OT like Ezekiel, Jerimiah, etc., that speak not only to Daniel but to the end times, I would ask you to consider the 70 weeks of years prophecy as one consecutive period... the entire prophecy is about the restoration of the Jews and Jerusalem - not an endtime prophecy. The prophecy specifically identifies the 3 separate sections where the specific items will be restored and by whom... The Messiah DID arrive on the first day of the 70th week. It is so clear, to me, that He came AFTER the 7 and 62 weeks were completed... one cannot escape that... the Chapter 9 prophecy is about the coming of the Messiah... the last 7 years are the most important time element within the 70 weeks. This prophecy was written for "Daniel's people and Daniel's city....I have studied Revelation and other parts of the bible for over 50 years. I am non-denominational and don't present any specific group's point of view.
I also have discussed with Jews (Judaism) at their countermissionary site, Messiah Truth, about what they believe ever since 2004, and have made over 10,000 posts there learning what they believe - which that experience has given me insights, that most Christians do not have, as to how the Jews will mistakenly think the prince that shall come is their long awaited King of Israel messiah - for a while.
The 70th week is the same 7 years as in Ezekiel 39:9 that follow the destruction of Gog's army (of the Gog/Magog group). Gog/Magog to happen in the near future, some time before the end of 2030.
It is critical to know and understand Ezekiel 39 as it gives the timeline framework for the 7 years.
Dougg, come on! Of course it does... After 7 and 62 weeks the Messiah....This is the beginning of His ministry.--------------------------------
Daniel 9 does not reference the messiah's ministry time.... just unto messiah.
Which Jesus arrived in Jerusalem in John 12:12-15 hailed as the messiah. Four days later, Jesus was crucified, cutoff.
Dougg. I have given you all I have... If you want to believe these are end time prophecies and they don't speak to the Messiah's first coming, fine. Read Jeremiah 31:31-34 which identifies what covenant the Messiah will CONFIRM.The 70th week is still unfulfilled and begins when the prince that shall come will confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant (the covenant that Daniel referred to in his prayer in the earlier verses in Daniel 9) for 7 years.W
Sorry Dougg, this is all nonsense. To be candid, I don't understand how anyone cannot see how these verses are intertwined and relate not only to the actual events that took place in the last 3.5 years of the 7 years, but how it joins with the first 20 verses in Chapter 9 - Daniel goes to great lengths to speak about the sin of his people and need for forgiveness and the covenant his people have with their God.... it walks right into the most spectacular 7 years in our history - when the Messiah would forgive His people and be the Perfect Sacrifice for the sin of mankind.The "for 7 years" is in Deuteronomy 31:9-13 as a requirement Moses made of all future leaders of Israel, to confirm that God gave the land to the children of Israel and their seed, forever. The confirmation process will be a big speech from the temple mount by the Antichrist, who will have been anointed the King of Israel perceived messiah by the false prophet.
I will tell you what... show me where anywhere in Daniel or Revelation tells us that an "antiChrist" figure will come at the end of days and enter into an agreement with Israel. Tell me also, who the little horn of Daniel 7 and 8 is by using the actual verses in Daniel. There is definitiely a little horn. an evil one (Chapter 11), that is given much ink in Daniel 7 and 8, but no anti-Christ figure. Again, there are 4 times in the NT only where the term "antiChrist" is found --- I believe ther are all in Peter, and they ONLY speak of the "spirit of an antiChrist." That is, one who preaches a different Gospel, disobeys the commands of God, etc. but NO literal antiChrist figure.The Antichrist person has to be a Jew. That eliminates the pope/papacy from being the Antichrist.
They're in John's epistles.Again, there are 4 times in the NT only where the term "antiChrist" is found --- I believe ther are all in Peter, and they ONLY speak of the "spirit of an antiChrist."
the entire prophecy is about the restoration of the Jews and Jerusalem - not an endtime prophecy
The Antichrist does not enter into a covenant with Israel. Israel entered into a covenant with God at Mt. Sinai in the exodus out of Egypt.I will tell you what... show me where anywhere in Daniel or Revelation tells us that an "antiChrist" figure will come at the end of days and enter into an agreement with Israel.
Oh, I apologize, I did not go and look at Ezekiel... I just looked at Ezekiel 39:21-29 and although I did not spend too much time on it, here is what I think in MIGHT be speaking about;The 70th week part is end times because the vision in verses 21,22,23,24 are of the time of the end little horn's person's activities of Daniel 8, 2300 days in length.
Ezekiel 39:9, those 7 years are the 7 years of the 70th week.
On my timeline chart below is the 2300 days (Daniel 8:11-14) and the time/times/half time (Daniel 7:25) - of the little horn.
At the end of the 7 years is Armageddon in Ezekiel 39:17-20 Please compare that text with Revelation 19:17-18.
In Ezekiel 39:21-29, Jesus Himself is speaking in the text having returned to this earth, His Second Coming.
.
View attachment 49431
The person in question in Daniel 7 and Daniel 8 goes through 5 successive stages, evolving, on the way to his demise.Tell me also, who the little horn of Daniel 7 and 8 is by using the actual verses in Daniel. There is definitiely a little horn. an evil one (Chapter 11), that is given much ink in Daniel 7 and 8, but no anti-Christ figure.
CTK,Oh, I apologize, I did not go and look at Ezekiel... I just looked at Ezekiel 39:21-29 and although I did not spend too much time on it, here is what I think in MIGHT be speaking about;
Dougg, if you do not mind, I will respond to your previous response tomorrow, but, unless I am mistaken, we see Ezekiel the same?CTK,
Ezekiel 39:17-20 Armageddon event = Revelation 19:17-18
Ezekiel 39:21 Jesus speaking in the text...
21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
And I will set my glory among the heathen, = Jesus returned to this earth, to rule over the nations.
all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them. = Jesus just destroyed the armies gathered at Armageddon to make war on Him.
-----------------------------------------------------
22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward. = the Jews will finally realize who Jesus is.
The beginning of the 2300 days is when the animal sacrifices begin again. Which later in the 2300 days that the little horn (as the Antichrist) will stop when he commits the transgression of desolation act of Daniel 8:13 and 2Thesslaonians2:4.Please, if you will, tell me what is the purpose of the 2300 time element
Sure, take your time. And get some rest.Dougg, if you do not mind, I will respond to your previous response tomorrow, but, unless I am mistaken, we see Ezekiel the same?
Thanks Dougg! But doesn't this little horn come out of the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome? And, in 7:11, pagan Rome will be slain and its body is destroyed. He must come out before that event happens....and he will continue until the end of time when he is destroyed without human hands. He will continue.... he will not come at the end of time.... he will continue since he took power after the demise of pagan Rome. What do you think?The person in question in Daniel 7 and Daniel 8 goes through 5 successive stages, evolving, on the way to his demise.
The person is not called the Antichrist, nor the prince that shall come, nor the revealed man of sin, nor the beast (king), directly, in either Daniel 7 or Daniel 8.
But in Daniel 8:25, he does meet his end, broken by Jesus, at the time which he will have evolved into the beast (king) of Revelation. In Revelation 19:20, he will be cast alive into the lake of fire.
The five successive stages:
1. starts as the little horn - leader over a group of ten EU leaders. The EU being the manifestation of the fourth kingdom of Daniel 7, the Roman Empire, in the end times.
2. as the prince that shall come - into the middle east, on the premise of being peace keeper in the region, following the Gog/Magog event of Ezekiel 39.
3. as the Antichrist - perceived messiah by the Jews. Anointed the King of Israel by the false prophet. And will confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant for the 7 year cycle required by Moses in Deuteronomy 31:9-13 of a future leaders of Israel.
4. as the revealed man of sin - when he goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood - the transgression of desolation act of Daniel 8:13. i.e. transgression of the Mt. Sinai covenant that he had confirmed earlier in the 7 years.
5. as the beast (king) of Revelation - after being assassinated for his audacious act (Ezekiel 28:1-10) and then being brought back to life by God in disdain for the person (Isaiah14:18-20, he will become possessed by the spirit of the garden of eden serpent beast which will be allowed to ascend out of the bottomless pit.
As the beast (king), he will be dictator over the EU as the ten EU leaders hand their kingdom over to him (Revelation 17:17).
Thanks Dougg. It was some 5 months attempting to understand and interpret this time element. Every interpretation I read turned it into a secular event... whether they converted it to years or even cut the 2300 into 2 or 1150 days and attempted to match it to a event around the time of AE... But none of that made any sense to be and I believed it was just another of the most difficult verses in the Bible to unpack and properly interpret. After around 5 monts, I went back to my "approach" which I had used up to Chapter 7. This "approach" departed from what I believe everyone has applied - that is, the historical approach. Meaning, they would sit at their desk with the Book of Daniel on the left side, and their history books on the right side and attempt to find those actors and events in the history books that might fit those actors and events within Daniel's verses. And they would feel somewhat comfortable doing that since they would believed that Daniel was written, not only to matchup with our history, but also be written in chronological fashion. Example: who comes after Alexander and his 4 generals? Well, it has to be the Ptolemy's, the Seleucid's, and even further out, AE. But God is not writing a history book. And one other major flaw in their "approach:" they almost exclusively refused to try and interpret these verses as if they might apply to the coming Messiah. They continued their "secular" or "historical" approach even within the Hebrew chapters. When our history books failed to keep pace or provide a close match to the actors and events mentioned in Daniel, they would adopt a new approach - they would declare that since they could not be found in our history books, they must not have happened yet and so many were thrown far into the future some 2000 years later -and they still have not occurred according to their theory. But indeed they did take place around the time of the Messiah and they do speak to the coming Messiah and His plan of salvation for the Jews and mankind. If the coming Messiah is not found within the most prophetic book in the Bible... where is He mentioned? The 70 weeks of years prophecy is all about the restoration of His people and His city... and the most important component of that restoration is the presence of God in the Sanctuary that was taken away by Jeremiah before the Babylonians could obtain it. God would not allow the Babylonians to take the Ark of the Covenant and God would also not allow man to kill His Messiah.... Jesus said in John 10:18,The beginning of the 2300 days is when the animal sacrifices begin again. Which later in the 2300 days that the little horn (as the Antichrist) will stop when he commits the transgression of desolation act of Daniel 8:13 and 2Thesslaonians2:4.
The 2300 days give an indication when the animal sacrifices will begin again - in the completion of a new temple built. The temple will be initially downsized in the Jews' fervor to re-institute temple activities following the Gog/Magog event. The temple sanctuary building only has to be 30 ft x 15 ft if patterned after the tent tabernacle in the Exodus.
On my timeline chart below, I show the temple built in the first 7 months following Gog/Magog. The Jews can not build a temple on the temple mount now because of the Muslim presence on the temple mount. But with the Gog/Magog event, that will change and the Muslim presence will be gone, as well as the Dome of the Rock and the Al-aqsa mosque.
View attachment 49440
The labels "pagan Rome" and "papal Rome" are unique to SDA's position that the office of the pope is the Antichrist.Thanks Dougg! But doesn't this little horn come out of the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome? And, in 7:11, pagan Rome will be slain and its body is destroyed. He must come out before that event happens....and he will continue until the end of time when he is destroyed without human hands. He will continue.... he will not come at the end of time.... he will continue since he took power after the demise of pagan Rome. What do you think?