When was the A.O.D fulfilled?

[Timtofly]

What happened to "set up"? I don't see it. You haven't even followed your own fallacy.

So they did not set up an encampment against Jerusalem? Have you even read about the Jewish Wars?

 

[Timtofly]

There is only one AOD event that was prophesied about the destruction of the Temple and surrounding buildings Jesus and the apostles were looking at with THEIR OWN EYES!

No, that event was not an AoD. That was the armies that came in 66AD. That was not an AoD. The Roman soldiers had already been seen in Jerusalem for near 100 years, prior to the destruction of the Temple. The destruction of the temple cannot be an AoD. No AoD ever destroyed the temple, but was a desecration of the Temple.

The AoD prophecied in Daniel had been fulfilled. That was remembered as Hanukkah to this very day. Jesus said to His disciples in private there would be another AoD like the one that Hanukkah was remembered for. Those who read the verses later should do due diligence to figure out about Hanukkah.

They should not just interpret Scripture blindly.

You should notice that only at the Temple when they were looking at the buildings, the mention of armies was made. The AoD was not the armies, but another event mentioned in private on the Mount of Olives about the Second Coming.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Can you point out in these verses from Matthew 24, any destruction of Jerusalem or the Temple?

There is none, so not about 70AD. How about Mark 13?

14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:

16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.

17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.

19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:

22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

These two chapters do not talk about Jerusalem surrounded by armies and destroyed. Why would any one force that into the text?

That is not interpretation, but making Jesus say something, He never said at all. That is adding your opinion to the text.

Now you can try to say that you are using Luke to interpret the other 2 books, but that is taking Scripture out of context and still adding your own pretext opinion. Luke was Jesus talking at the Temple, as Luke never mentioned they had left the Temple and were now on the mount of Olives. All those at the Temple heard all that Jesus had to say about armies surrounding Jerusalem. That was not a private discussion with His personal disciples, but a public prophecy. Luke mentions the Second Coming, but still does not say that first century generation would see 70AD and the Second Coming. Luke says by the Second Coming all will have been fulfilled. Obviously the Romans armies fulfilled Luke in 70AD, as that is what history records. So that part was fulfilled. The Second Coming has not been fulfilled, neither has the AoD that Jesus mentioned.

You can call the Roman armies an AoD all you want. That had been an ongoing AoD since before Jesus was baptized. Josephus points that out about when Pilate first became governor. No one ever fled in the first century because the Romans were allegedly an AoD. Jesus was not referring to them as an AoD. That was what the Jews themselves thought.

The first century Jews already understood about an AoD. They had a celebration once a year, to remind them.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

Now you can try to say that you are using Luke to interpret the other 2 books, but that is taking Scripture out of context and still adding your own pretext opinion. Luke was Jesus talking at the Temple, as Luke never mentioned they had left the Temple and were now on the mount of Olives. All those at the Temple heard all that Jesus had to say about armies surrounding Jerusalem. That was not a private discussion with His personal disciples, but a public prophecy. Luke mentions the Second Coming, but still does not say that first century generation would see 70AD and the Second Coming. Luke says by the Second Coming all will have been fulfilled. Obviously the Romans armies fulfilled Luke in 70AD, as that is what history records. So that part was fulfilled. The Second Coming has not been fulfilled, neither has the AoD that Jesus mentioned.

You can call the Roman armies an AoD all you want. That had been an ongoing AoD since before Jesus was baptized. Josephus points that out about when Pilate first became governor. No one ever fled in the first century because the Romans were allegedly an AoD. Jesus was not referring to them as an AoD. That was what the Jews themselves thought.

The first century Jews already understood about an AoD. They had a celebration once a year, to remind them.

All 3 gospel accounts agree, Luke’s account is just worded differently. When trying to piece together end time prophecy you need to look at every word of scripture that speaks of the event.

All 3 accounts agree that the destruction of the Temple and surrounding buildings Jesus and the apostles were looking at was to fulfill this prophecy. It doesn’t matter where Jesus and the apostles were sitting or standing when they spoke of the destruction of the Temple they were all looking at with their OWN EYES.

 

[covenantee]

So they did not set up an encampment against Jerusalem? Have you even read about the Jewish Wars?

That's right. They didn't set up an idol. They set up an encampment against Jerusalem.

 

[Timtofly]

Again, your argument is based on a gratuitous inflexible subjective interpretation which demands "soul" be a "part" of man rather than the "whole" of man. Verse 23 means "life" - Paul simply is praying that our whole "life" be preserved along with our spirit and body.

That is an impossibility that you claim about Paul. This mortal body cannot be preserved nor even changed at physical death. It returns to dust. Why would you think dust needs to be preserved?

That is also a subjective interpretation. You base the fact that the body and spirit make up the soul, while interpreting Genesis 2 as the body existing alone prior to the soul.

You only equate the soul as even existing as long as God continues to provide the power. Remove that power and the soul ceases, but the physical body is still there as in the beginning. The body can be preserved regardless of the power source and the soul that no longer exist. So preserving the body in your interpretation has nothing to do with a soul at all. In fact preserving a body without a soul is pointless.

Most accept that when the soul leaves the body, the body returns to dust, no matter how much you pray that it be preserved. That mortal body is not the body that comes from God. In fact you seem to view the body as a separate entity all by itself. We are still a soul besides having a body either way.

You say the soul needs the body. Most say the body needs the soul, or it could not even function.

That would not effect that a soul with the second birth is at odds with the body of death. One should still strive to keep this body blameless, even if a seemingly impossible task.

Jesus also pointed out that the only thing a human can kill is the body.

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

If a human cannot kill the soul, then why do you pretend you can if the soul leaves the body? If the body is dead, the soul would not be until God states otherwise. In fact many have not been destroyed in sheol, but have both a soul and a physical body, currently in Paradise. Even yourself claim they cannot work if separated. So how can they have eternal life seated in heavenly places if both do not currently exist in Paradise?

You are so stuck on a point that no one exists after the physical body is killed either premature or the physical end, that you missed the point about Jesus being the Resurrection and the Life even prior to the Cross, when Lazarus had been dead for 4 days. That was not a near death experience. And Lazarus did not have that old body of death, but a new permanent incorruptible physical body. The religious leaders freaked out over one returning from the grave. Jesus was correct in His estimated response.

"And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

He did leave Abraham's bosom, as Lazarus was the one Jesus was talking about in His explanation of a soul in sheol. That was not taken very well, and the religious leaders sought even harder to put Jesus to death.

"But some of them went their ways to the Pharisees, and told them what things Jesus had done. Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles. If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation."

Guess what? They did kill their Messiah, and the Romans did come and took away their place and their nation. Only Caiaphus understood Moses and the prophets.

Lazarus never stopped existing. There is no proof in the NT, he did.

 

[Timtofly]

The dead in Christ are sleeping and waiting still.

1 Thes 4

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.





I recon Jesus and Paul is what you are calling Roman and Greek mythology.

That word translated sleep does not mean sleep, but physically dead. The soul has left the mortal body. Jesus cleared that up in John 11:11-14.

"These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead."

Nope. Greek and Roman mythology is calling a future resurrection something into "immortal bodies".

That term or phrase is missing from those verses you quoted, yet you seem to think they are hidden in the text.

Those who are in Christ rise from Paradise first, as they come from Paradise with Jesus. Then those on the earth rise from the earth, second.

Do you think those alive on earth are going to resurrect secondly, or rise secondly? How can you call the first rising from Paradise something different from those rising from the earth?

 

[tailgator]

The church leaves at the 5th Seal. No such thing as an immortal body in Scripture.

Do you enjoy swapping Greek and Roman mythology into your theology?

The OT redeemed came out of their graves in permanent incorruptible physical bodies, the same as Lazarus. You get a permanent incorruptible physical body when your soul enters Paradise.


Only those alive at the Second Coming have to wait, so no, no one gets a permanent incorruptible physical body, until the soul leaves Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

Only those alive in Adam's dead corruptible flesh have to wait for that Trumpet sound.

Did you not notice that I said the dead in Christ?


The dead in Christ are sleeping and waiting still.

1 Thes 4

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.





According to Jesus,the angels will be coming with him and they will gather together his elect.


Mathew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[Phoneman777]

Paul fully understood that when his natural body would be dead and buried, he would be spiritual body

Sorry, but we don't get to add a third category of "body" to the only God's two:

• mortal "earthly house"
• immortal "house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens"

This is only true of those who die in unbelief.

I'll try to explain it more clearly:

Paul, speaking to the righteous, makes an inseparable link between the being "clothed upon" and having "life":

QUESTION:
How can dead "naked, unclothed, disembodied saints" be alive in heaven if they must be "clothed upon" to have "life"?
ANSWER:
They can't. Therefore, "naked" and "unclothed" can only refer to "dead, without a body, in the grave, awaiting the resurrection".

Not so! Life comes from the spirit, and eternal life from Christ's Spirit within us.

The question is not from where life originates, but under what circumstances is life possible. As I've shown, Paul is clear that in order for "life" to exist, we have to be "clothed upon".

You see life only from the physical realm. You seem not to understand that eternal life assured believers by Christ speaks not of the physical realm but the spiritual realm.

I absolutely believe life exists both in the physical realm clothed in our "earthly house" and the spiritual realm clothed in our "house not made with hands".

That's why Christ says, His Kingdom is not now of this world, nor can the Kingdom of God be seen with physical sight, and His Kingdom is known and entered only to those who have been born again. Because the Kingdom of God is not physical it is a spiritual Kingdom.

It's both - spiritual in the here and now via the holy ghost filled church, and literal in the future when New Jerusalem comes down on the Mount of Olives.

See, the "spiritual kingdom" has nothing to do with a fictitious place where "disembodied bodies" of saints go when they die.

 

[Timtofly]

All 3 gospel accounts agree, Luke’s account is just worded differently. When trying to piece together end time prophecy you need to look at every word of scripture that speaks of the event.

All 3 accounts agree that the destruction of the Temple and surrounding buildings Jesus and the apostles were looking at was to fulfill this prophecy. It doesn’t matter where Jesus and the apostles were sitting or standing when they spoke of the destruction of the Temple they were all looking at with their OWN EYES.

Just because Jesus reprated some parts both at the Temple and on the mount does not mean they were said at the sane time to the same audience.

Luke was for all of Palestine to be prepared in the first century.

Mark and Matthew were for those at the Second Coming to be prepared.

Do you think Jerusalem and a Tenple will be destroyed twice?

Or do you think there will not even be a second coming, because you claim the entire warning only pertained to the first century?

You are not paying attention to the detail but lumping everything together.

The temple destroyed was not an AoD.

 

[Timtofly]

That's right. They didn't set up an idol. They set up an encampment against Jerusalem.

So stop calling the encampment an idol. The armies set up their camp. They did not even enter the Temple.

The Temple being desecrated is the point of an AoD.

"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place,"

Someone has to place something in the holy place. That is called setting up this "idol" as you put it. They did not encompass Jerusalem from inside the holy place, the Temple. They were outside the walls of Jerusalem attempting to destroy those walls. A destroyed wall meant desolation of the whole city, not desecration in the Temple.

 

[Phoneman777]

your supposed truth bomb that ended up being a total dud.

Only because you crawled into your "willful ignorance" bomb shelter.
BTW, here's another one:

LOL. You mean the same Paul who taught that a person is made up of a body, soul and spirit (1 Thess 5:23)?

Your active imagination is the reason for your continued hermeneutical hodgepodge. He never said that.

We don't have BODILY immortality until then.

Which means we don't have "life" until then.
Get it?
He didn't say "...that mortality might be swallowed up of an eternal body" or "immortal body" - he simply said "life". Get it? You don't have mortality-swallowing "life" if you're not "clothed upon" in immortality.

Notice that Paul says being in our body equates to being absent from the Lord.

Correct.

That alone disproves your false belief that we must be in a body to be present with the Lord.

Apples and oranges.
We're absent from the Lord whether in our mortal body or dead in the grave "naked" without a body.

But, then Paul confirms that we can be present with the Lord apart from the body by explicitly saying that he would rather be absent from the body and to instead be present with the Lord.

By your logic, a Christian who'd rather be absent from the church pew and present in the Cracker Barrel is instantly there the moment he steps out of the pew.

How you can conclude that one can only be present with the Lord with a body despite what Paul said there is beyond me.

By this:

never said that the redemption of our body takes place at any time except for at the last trump.

Try to keep up.
You quoted Paul's words about "groaning, waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body" as somehow "refutation" of my claim that the "groaning" of 2 Cor 5 is for his resurrection body in order to be present with the Lord. So, I pointed out that the "groan, adoption, body redemption" is at the Second Coming - NOT AT DEATH.

He equates BODILY life with that.

Yes, if we're not "clothed upon" we don't have "life".

But, he also said to be ABSENT from the body is to be PRESENT with the Lord.

Wrong, he said "and to be" not "is to be". The former denotes preference while the latter warps it into an "either/or" statement Paul never made.

He clearly indicated that he expected to depart from his body and be ABSENT from it and then to be PRESENT

Yes, "present with the Lord" in his resurrection body - because in order for mortality to be swallowed up of "life" one must first be "clothed upon" in an immortal body.

Show me the scripture which teaches that Moses was resurrected with an immortal body.

2 Corinthians 5:4 KJV:

Even a fool knows Moses would have to have been resurrected to his immortal body if he was in heaven - because the "naked" and "unclothed" do not have the "life" that the "clothed upon" have.

Good luck. And tell me how that can be possible when it says that Jesus was the first to rise from the dead (Acts 26:23).

"Hierarchical" - not "sequential". All resurrections are predicated on HIS resurrection. That's how.

They know not anything "UNDER THE SUN".

Nope - it says "the dead know not anything" but you want it to say "dead bodies know not anything".

it's ridiculous requirement for Gentiles to be under the law of Moses by observing the Sabbath on Saturday

The Sabbath was made for M-A-N which includes Gentiles. If you knew anything, you'd know the primitive church kept the seventh day universally "except the Christians at Alexandria AND AT ROME on account of some ancient (Sun worship) tradition".

I follow my Creator/Redeemer Lord of the Sabbath - you follow the pope, Jesuit.

and thinking that not doing that has something to do with the mark of the beast (LOL!) and so on.

It can easily be shown that the Mark has to do with God's law - and there's only ONE LAW the entire Christian world fights tooth and nail against. In the apocalyptic Psalm 94 of events that immediately precede the Second Coming, we read:

"Shall the throne of iniquity have fellowship with Thee, he that frameth mischief by a LAW?"

 

[Timtofly]

Did you not notice that I said the dead in Christ?


The dead in Christ are sleeping and waiting still.

1 Thes 4

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.





According to Jesus,the angels will be coming with him and they will gather together his elect.


Mathew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

So what Paul said about sleep in Christ instead of posters here calling them the dead in Christ, still means they are no longer in Adam's dead corruptible flesh on earth. It certainly does not mean they are dead in Paradise. Do you look forward to just being dead?

They are not asleep nor dead. Did you not understand Jesus who pointed out sleeping and being dead are the same thing? Do you sleep in Christ every night?

That is what the disciples thought Jesus said. Paul is just using the same phraseology. They have physical bodies and may or may not take naps and sleep, since it is always light, no? They don't need to worry about death and their bodies decaying and getting old. They certainly are not in a state of death without a physical body. That would contradict all Jesus taught about the second birth. The second birth means no longer tasting death, nor dying period. Leaving this mortal body is not death. It is the beginning of eternal life. That means in a permanent incorruptible physical body from God. 2 Corinthians 5:1

Yes, at the 5th Seal those in Paradise will be physically gathered just like those on the earth in Christ will be physically gathered.

 

[covenantee]

So stop calling the encampment and idol. The armies set up their camp. They did not even enter the Temple.

The Temple being desecrated is the point of an AoD.

"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place,"

Someone has to place something in the holy place. That is called setting up this "idol" as you put it. They did not encompass Jerusalem from inside the holy place, the Temple. They were outside the walls of Jerusalem attempting to destroy those walls. A destroyed wall meant desolation of the whole city, not desecration in the Temple.

You're the one who talks about "setting up" and "idol", neither of which appears in Scripture.

Only in the set up Darby/Scofield dispensational futurist delusional mind.

 

[Phoneman777]

This mortal body cannot be preserved nor even changed at physical death.

"perserved BLAMELESS" meaning "free from defilement of sin". There's gonna be a lot of professing Christians who will not meet Jesus in peace because their continued practice of iniquity proved that they "loved darkness rather than light".

You base the fact that the body and spirit make up the soul

Exactly what it says

while interpreting Genesis 2 as the body existing alone prior to the soul.

Exactly what it says - God first formed the body from the dust, then breathed into it to animate it, and presto chango, the "living soul" popped into existence.

You only equate the soul as even existing as long as God continues to provide the power. Remove that power and the soul ceases

Yes! Just as when you remove the current from a bulb, the light ceases.

but the physical body is still there as in the beginning.

and returns to dust...right or wrong?

The body can be preserved regardless of the power source and the soul that no longer exist.

If left alone, it will return to the dust.

So preserving the body in your interpretation has nothing to do with a soul at all. In fact preserving a body without a soul is pointless.

This talk about "preserving the body" is pointless. Body returns to dust, Spirit to God, Soul ceases to be.

If a human cannot kill the soul, then why do you pretend you can if the soul leaves the body?

To "kill the soul" refers to the Second Death. To "kill the body" refers to the First Death.

If the body is dead, the soul would not be until God states otherwise. In fact many have not been destroyed in sheol, but have both a soul and a physical body, currently in Paradise. Even yourself claim they cannot work if separated. So how can they have eternal life seated in heavenly places if both do not currently exist in Paradise?

You are so stuck on a point that no one exists after the physical body is killed either premature or the physical end, that you missed the point about Jesus being the Resurrection and the Life even prior to the Cross, when Lazarus had been dead for 4 days. That was not a near death experience. And Lazarus did not have that old body of death, but a new permanent incorruptible physical body. The religious leaders freaked out over one returning from the grave. Jesus was correct in His estimated response.

"And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

He did leave Abraham's bosom, as Lazarus was the one Jesus was talking about in His explanation of a soul in sheol. That was not taken very well, and the religious leaders sought even harder to put Jesus to death.

"But some of them went their ways to the Pharisees, and told them what things Jesus had done. Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles. If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation."

Guess what? They did kill their Messiah, and the Romans did come and took away their place and their nation. Only Caiaphus understood Moses and the prophets.

Lazarus never stopped existing. There is no proof in the NT, he did.

Look, there's too much error here for one response. Can we please break it up into smaller posts?

I'll leave you with this to prove that mortality-swallowing "LIFE" is only possible if we're "CLOTHED UPON" in our immortal body:

 

[Timtofly]

By your logic, a Christian who'd rather be absent from the church pew and present in the Cracker Barrel is instantly there the moment he steps out of the pew.

Of course, that is exactly what should happen. Have you driven a vehicle to heaven lately?

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

Do you think Jerusalem and a Tenple will be destroyed twice?

It already has.

Or do you think there will not even be a second coming,

There will be a second coming of Christ.

because you claim the entire warning only pertained to the first century?

I did not say the entire prophecy was fulfilled about the second coming and the end of the world.

You are not paying attention to the detail but lumping everything together.

The temple destroyed was not an AoD.

I disagree. We have not come to this part of the highlighted prophecy yet….

Luke 21:24
And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

 

[tailgator]

So what Paul said about sleep in Christ instead of posters here calling them the dead in Christ, still means they are no longer in Adam's dead corruptible flesh on earth. It certainly does not mean they are dead in Paradise. Do you look forward to just being dead?

They are not asleep nor dead. Did you not understand Jesus who pointed out sleeping and being dead are the same thing? Do you sleep in Christ every night?

That is what the disciples thought Jesus said. Paul is just using the same phraseology. They have physical bodies and may or may not take naps and sleep, since it is always light, no? They don't need to worry about death and their bodies decaying and getting old. They certainly are not in a state of death without a physical body. That would contradict all Jesus taught about the second birth. The second birth means no longer tasting death, nor dying period. Leaving this mortal body is not death. It is the beginning of eternal life. That means in a permanent incorruptible physical body from God. 2 Corinthians 5:1

Yes, at the 5th Seal those in Paradise will be physically gathered just like those on the earth in Christ will be physically gathered.

It means they are buried.
Like Abraham was buried and Isaac was buried and Jacob was buried.

You dig a hole and you lower someone into the ground and cover them up with dirt.

They are asleep in the dust of the earth.

Daniel 12:2
2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise[a] will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to



Do you understand the concept of sleeping in the dust of the earth as the word of God says here in daniel.12:2 or is it beyond your comprehension ?

 

[rwb]

Sorry, but we don't get to add a third category of "body" to the only God's two:

• mortal "earthly house"
• immortal "house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens"

Take it up with the Apostle Paul. The natural body in Christ is of flesh and is mortal, the spiritual body in Christ is eternal and of heaven. While alive on this earth we are clothed with natural, mortal body of flesh. When we die our earthly body (house) returns to the earth. Those who die in Christ then put off the mortal house and are then clothed with spiritual body that is eternal from heaven and shall never die.

1 Corinthians 15:44-47 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1 Corinthians 15:48-49 (KJV) As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Do you really think Paul imagined that when he died, he would not, at that very moment be present with the Lord in heaven? Does it sound to you like Paul believed after he died he would not be present with the Lord even for a moment? That certainly is NOT what he tells us. If Paul believed he would not be with the Lord again until time shall be no longer, he would not have longed for his body to die so he could be eternally present with the Lord in heaven.

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 (KJV) Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

QUESTION:
How can dead "naked, unclothed, disembodied saints" be alive in heaven if they must be "clothed upon" to have "life"?
ANSWER:
They can't. Therefore, "naked" and "unclothed" can only refer to "dead, without a body, in the grave, awaiting the resurrection".

You believe this because you are consumed with physical mortal bodies of flesh and have not understanding of the eternal spiritual realm of heaven.

The question is not from where life originates, but under what circumstances is life possible. As I've shown, Paul is clear that in order for "life" to exist, we have to be "clothed upon".

As I've already shown you ALL life comes from spirit! Without spirit there is no life, and for those who are indwelt with the Holy Spirit, being unclothed from this natural body of death, is to be clothed a spiritual body in the eternal Kingdom of God in heaven.

I absolutely believe life exists both in the physical realm clothed in our "earthly house" and the spiritual realm clothed in our "house not made with hands".

If you believe that why do you argue for the unbiblical doctrine 'soul sleep'? What are we clothed upon in the spiritual realm, if not eternal spiritual life we receive through the Spirit of Christ in us when we are born again? Just because you cannot see or touch the spiritual realm does not mean there is not eternal spiritual life after physical death for saints in Christ there.

It's both - spiritual in the here and now via the holy ghost filled church, and literal in the future when New Jerusalem comes down on the Mount of Olives.

See, the "spiritual kingdom" has nothing to do with a fictitious place where "disembodied bodies" of saints go when they die.

Again, your argument is not with me, but with the Word of Christ. Because Christ tells us that wherever He is, we shall be there also. And that when He left this earth and returned to heaven it would be to prepare a place there for all His saints. When we die our spirit returns to the Father who is in heaven, where Jesus' spirit returned when His body died. The way to the Father is through Christ, and when we die in Him, we are received in heaven an eternal spiritual body of believers alive there. And our eternal spirit shall then return with Christ to give our new immortal and incorruptible resurrected body life forever on the new earth. Christ will not be returning with the dead, but all the spiritual body alive with Him in heaven.

John 14:2-3 (KJV) In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

John 14:6 (KJV) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Luke 23:46 (KJV) And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 (KJV) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

 

[Timtofly]

You're the one who talks about "setting up" and "idol", neither of which appears in Scripture.

Only in the set up Darby/Scofield dispensational futurist delusional mind.

Armies are not something that "stands in the Holy Place". Armies are what brings anything that represents an abomination. No one will know what that AoD is until they see it. No one saw an AoD in 70AD. The Holy Place stopped being a thing in 30AD, when Jesus said it was finished.

The armies, at the most set up an encampment. You are avoiding your own error, and accuse me of saying something happened in 70AD. Nothing happened in 70AD, concerning fleeing, nor an AoD. They all fled in 66AD, when there was the first Roman armies approaching Jerusalem. Nothing happened in 70AD about fleeing, which you continually say happened in 70AD.

You cannot even define what an AoD is. It is not a "standing army".

They had to flee, as between 66AD and 70AD many cities in Judaea were destroyed. All the foolish people took refuge in Jerusalem, thinking they were safe, when they should have remembered that it was about to be destroyed.

I am going by Scripture and what history tells us. You are making up your own imaginary theology in opposition to other erroneous theology. Because you keep repeating the same foolishness over and over.

 

[Timtofly]

"perserved BLAMELESS" meaning "free from defilement of sin". There's gonna be a lot of professing Christians who will not meet Jesus in peace because their continued practice of iniquity proved that they "loved darkness rather than light".

Exactly what it says

Exactly what it says - God first formed the body from the dust, then breathed into it to animate it, and presto chango, the "living soul" popped into existence.

Yes! Just as when you remove the current from a bulb, the light ceases.

and returns to dust...right or wrong?

If left alone, it will return to the dust.

This talk about "preserving the body" is pointless. Body returns to dust, Spirit to God, Soul ceases to be.

To "kill the soul" refers to the Second Death. To "kill the body" refers to the First Death.

Look, there's too much error here for one response. Can we please break it up into smaller posts?

I'll leave you with this to prove that mortality-swallowing "LIFE" is only possible if we're "CLOTHED UPON" in our immortal body:
View attachment 49383

Paul did not say persevered.

"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Paul was saying God preserves a body, a spirit, and you, the soul.

Your choices on earth in a mortal body can effect your spirit that is before God.

Romans 1 lays out the reprobate mind of one past the point of redemption on earth. You cannot preserve anything, but you can through disobedience destroy all your chances with God.

To persevere only works on the awards program. You cannot save yourself, nor keep yourself saved, by doing stuff, and certainly not by perseverance.

Only God can keep one blameless via the blood of the Lamb.

You overlooked the point that this body of death cannot be preserved at all. Jesus said it returns to dust.

Why do you deny you have a distinct body and an independent spirit separate from your soul? When the verse clearly points out God keeps all three blameless? Why change the wording to prove that only God via the Holy Spirit and a mortal body, that you persevere with, is the only thing you and God have going to produce a temporal soul?

You are not temporal. You are not even the body. Yet you want to stop existing for some reason.

No such thing as an immortal body. The term immortal in the original language just means non death. Mortal meaning death. I agree that life swallows up death. But this is not talking about the literal physical body. This is talking about the death from Adam's disobedience swallowed up by the life from Christ's obedience. Paul is saying death is changed to life, nothing about the physical body at all. The physical body is not swallowed up by another physical body.

Putting off death and putting on life is a spiritual principle dealing with the whole aspect of who you are. You go from death to life, at the moment of physical death. There is no intermediate state as was required before the Cross for those OT redeemed waiting in Abraham's bosom.

And both souls and spirits, two seperate parts of a whole son of God, waited in sheol since the time of the flood. At the Flood those wicked sons of God were literally swallowed into the heart of the earth, body, soul, and spirit. They were not in Adam's dead corruptible state. They were sons of God with a whole body, soul, and spirit, unlike Adam and his offspring who were only a soul in a dead body. That their body returned to dust is unknown. Only Adam's mortal body returns to dust. But then again, you have your own private interpretation of Scripture, that you analogize with your physical apparatus. You miss out on what it means to be an actual son of God.

A son of God is a soul inside a physical body inside a spirit that is on the outside of the physical body. The image of the Holy Spirit inside Jesus Christ inside God who is spirit and light. Emphasis on the light part. Daniel states we will, as sons of God, shine as the stars.

"And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever."

Jesus repeats that in Matthew 13

“Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.”

To have that life instead of death, allows us to shine as the sun. That is who we should be, but are not, while in death. Those currently physically enjoying Paradise are not completely restored to life as sons of God, but they are more restored than a simple soul without a physical body in sheol. They have a soul and body in Paradise, serving God day and night in that physical heavenly Temple.