He has no Scripture to bring. All he has is insults and avoidance. He loves to wallow in the muck.
We just have to keep presenting the sacred text. He cannot deal with that.
When are the dead and living in Christ caught up to the Lord?
- Thread starter Stewardofthemystery
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We just have to keep presenting the sacred text. He cannot deal with that.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
LOL. Look in the mirror, buddy. You're 100% hot air and no substance.
LOL. The only frustration I have is at your stubborn refusal to exegete any scripture. If you think you are civil on here then you are even more delusional than I thought. You speak condescendingly towards everyone who disagrees with you and you do absolutely NOTHING to support your claims with scripture.
That is a lie. I consider ALL verses. You bring verses with no exegesis, so I have no idea how you come to the conclusions you draw from them.
I am quite capable of conversing civilly and am more than willing to do so. You are the one who brings a condescending, insulting attitude in every post you make. How about you humble yourself a bit and show exactly how you interpret the verses you use to support your view? Deal? Then we can have a calm and civil discussion while I share my own interpretation of the verses. That is what I'm looking for, so, yes, I get frustrated when you refuse to have that kind of discussion.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
What pretrib rapture verses? Please present a coherent argument supporting pretrib using scripture. Can you do that?
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Here:
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
- Revelation 20:4-8 (KJV)
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Please read what he said again. He asked you "Why would we need a future millennium? Where is this taught elsewhere in Scripture?". You didn't answer either question. His second question is related to any other scripture besides Revelation 20.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Listing them wouldn't accomplish anything. He needs to exegete them. Show exactly how he interprets them. He never does that. Yet, he always acts as if he's proven something somehow.
Yes, it is the Second Coming… When Christ returns to wage war at the sound of the 7th trumpet, it is written that His army will follow Him. His millennial kingdom will be established at this time.
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
- Revelation 19:11-16 (KJV)
But there are no mortals or wicked left after this saints are rescued to enter into your millennium kingdom. They're all destroyed at the second coming.
(1) All the detail around the sounding of the 7th trumpet is final and climactic.
(2) Check out all the other end-time trumpet passages and the final blast ushers in the sudden and climactic appearing of Christ.
(3) The operation of the 7th angel in the text is not one day, but days preceding the coming of the Lord. This sees the customary preceding natural signs in the sky and upon earth (Revelation 16:18), the judgment and downfall of Babylon (Revelation 16:19) and then the glorious return of Christ (Revelation 16:20). Jesus uses the same contrast in Luke 17 when comparing the days that precede His glorious second coming to the actual day that Christ’s returns.
(4) There is a difference between the voice of the 7th angel (which I believe refers to his time of assignment just before and up to the end) and the trumpet blast (which introduces Christ's appearing).
(5) The 7th angel/trumpet doesn't remotely mention a thousand years.
(6) Chronos in Scripture does not = 1000 years, it equals the time from the beginning to the end.
(7) Satan's little season at the end kicks in with the fifth trumpet. That is when the abyss/bottomless pit is opened for the final and widespread deception of man.
The millennium is taught in many places in the Word of God—the book of Ezekiel, for example.
So what do you make of 1 Corinthians 15:52?
To place this verse in context one needs to go back to verse 35 of 1 Cor. 15 and pick up the subject which Paul is explaining—that there are two bodies, one of flesh and one of spirit; when we die, we are raised from the flesh body to our spiritual body. Paul then goes on to explain that the flesh and blood body cannot enter into the kingdom of God which will be established on this earth at the return of the King of kings and Lord of lords. Paul explains the "mystery" that when Christ returns at the sound of the last trump, the flesh age is over and ALL people at that time will be changed into their spiritual bodies.
Also, have you studied about the First Resurrection, the Second Resurrection, the Great White Throne Judgment, the Second Death, the New Jerusalem/Eternity?
7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.(Revelation 20:4)
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
(Revelation 19:20)
12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
(Revelation 20:5)
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.(Revelation 11:15)
15 I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me.
16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.
17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.
18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.(Revelation 20:4)
19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.(Revelation 20:4)
23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.(Revelation 12:14)
26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
28 Hitherto is the end of the matter
Daniel 12
12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.(Revelation 20:4)
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
5 Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river.
6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; (Revelation 12:14) and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.(Revelation 20:4)
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
(Revelation 19:20)
12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
(Revelation 20:5)
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.(Revelation 11:15)
15 I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me.
16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.
17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.
18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.(Revelation 20:4)
19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.(Revelation 20:4)
23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.(Revelation 12:14)
26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
28 Hitherto is the end of the matter
Daniel 12
King James Version
12 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.(Revelation 20:4)2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
5 Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river.
6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; (Revelation 12:14) and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
Really? Maybe you would be so kind to quote these in full. It's not mentioned anywhere apart from Revelation 20. Please quote any reference that teaches a thousand years after the second coming? Show me one second coming passage that actually teaches survivors from Christ's glorious return? I do not find one.
Where is a millennium taught in there? I do not see it! The burden of proof is with you.
Of course! The Bible only teaches one resurrection/judgment day. Also, Jesus is the first resurrection. That happened 2000 years ago. The redeemed have been reigning with Him since then.
You are making big claims that there are multiple Scriptures to support your opinion of Revelation 20. Where are they? You have to support your claims. You claiming it is not enough. Can you give me a clear second coming passage that describe mortal or wicked survivors?
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Who exactly will populate this supposed "millennial kingdom"? As a post-trib, you believe all believers will be changed to have immortal bodies when He comes, right? Scripture teaches that all unbelievers will be killed at that time. You stopped at verse 16 there, but look at what it says in verses 17 and 18.
Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
Notice this indicates that "all men, both free and bond, both small and great" will be destroyed at that point. All people. Not believers, of course. All unbelievers.
Just like Jesus taught here:
Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
And like Paul taught here:
2 Thess 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
And here:
1 Thess 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
And like Peter taught here:
2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
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