OSAS : Gnostic Heresy

[GracePeace]

Correct.
But the reformation expoused some beliefs that are gnostic...
that came from gnostic teachings...

like the absence of free will.
Gnostics believed that outside forces determined what humans would or would not do.

I think it's important to note that the church REFUSED the idea that we have no free will and instead believed that man is indeed free.

It's the reformation that brought the idea to the church FROM GNOSTICISM that man has no free will but will be coerced by outside forces...
in the case of the church...by GOD.

In a sense, we don't have free will, as espoused by Apostle Paul in Romans 7 ("I do what I hate, I am a captive to the Law of Sin"), but, it seems, we may have the freedom to recognize that we are slaves to Sin, and clamor for salvation... but even that is questionable, because, to clamor for salvation would mean we are not being blinded by "the god of this world", by sin... yet Paul said he received mercy because he did what he did in ignorance (thinking he was doing good)... so all that would have to be straightened out.

 

[GodsGrace]

I am not here to debate this. I have thrown you a lifeline according to the scriptural mandate. Should you choose to take hold of it, you will be behind the Gnostics, though they too were imperfect in their faith.

Scott, I haven't followed along 100%, but I don't think @GracePeace will be needing a lifeline.
I think he/she is on the right path and trying to find the truth - if not already found.

When there's a question about something important, it's a good idea to see what the Apostles taught to those after them because, sometimes, scripture can be used to support 2 opposing ideas.

OSAS is not found anywhere in the NT.
It is also not found in the early church.

It did NOT come about till 1,500 years after Jesus ascended.

Yes. I'd question such a teaching.

 

[GodsGrace]

In a sense, we don't have free will, as espoused by Apostle Paul in Romans 7 ("I do what I hate, I am a captive to the Law of Sin"), but, it seems, we may have the freedom to recognize that we are slaves to Sin, and clamor for salvation... but even that is questionable, because, to clamor for salvation would mean we are not being blinded by "the god of this world", by sin... yet Paul said he received mercy because he did what he did in ignorance (thinking he was doing good)... so all that would have to be straightened out.

OK
But don't forget Romans 8
We are in Christ Jesus.
The law of the spirit has set us free from the law of sin and death.

And what about Romans 6:16
We are slaves to the one TO WHOM WE PRESENT OURSELVES.
We present ourselves to the one we wish to serve.

Also, biblically, free will has a very specific meaning and we shouldn't get into the philosophical meaning - although it might help at times.

Biblically free will just means the ability to choose between 2 moral alternatives.

We are told/commanded to believe in Jesus to be saved.
Acts 16:31

This command from Paul requires free will...
and so many other command verses.

 

[GracePeace]

OK
But don't forget Romans 8
We are in Christ Jesus.
The law of the spirit has set us free from the law of sin and death.

And what about Romans 6:16
We are slaves to the one TO WHOM WE PRESENT OURSELVES.
We present ourselves to the one we wish to serve.

Also, biblically, free will has a very specific meaning and we shouldn't get into the philosophical meaning - although it might help at times.

Biblically free will just means the ability to choose between 2 moral alternatives.

We are told/commanded to believe in Jesus to be saved.
Acts 16:31

This command from Paul requires free will...
and so many other command verses.

I think they meant that before we were saved we didn't have free will, because the will was bound by the power of sin--I think I
agree with that, but, beyond that bondage and inability to do good, we CAN, it seems, admit that we are slaves in need of salvation or deny that we are slaves in need of salvation.

But then comes also the idea--with Calvinism, I think--that even the Christian has no free will, because God is working in them, so they're just doing God's will all of the time. That comes with its own problems, one of which you have outlined.

AS CHRISTIANS, however, yes, I believe we do have freed will.

 

[GodsGrace]

I think they meant that before we were saved we didn't have free will, because the will was bound by the power of sin--I think I
agree with that, but, beyond that bondage and inability to do good, we CAN, it seems, admit that we are slaves in need of salvation or deny that we are slaves in need of salvation.

But then comes also the idea--with Calvinism, I think--that even the Christian has no free will, because God is working in them, so they're just doing God's will all of the time. That comes with its own problems, one of which you have outlined.

AS CHRISTIANS, however, yes, I believe we do have freed will.

Good thinking!
Yes. If we are serving satan we really do not have free will because we're bound up in what he wants us to do and it enslaves us in one way or another...think of drugs, harmful emotional situations, unhealthy habits, etc.

We are indeed slaves in need of salvation.
But we are free to accept that salvation or deny it.
Calvinists believe its §God that chooses the saved and the damned.

And yes, calvinists believe in compatiblist free will...
this simply means that God MAKES persons want what HE wants and so
they think it's really THEM wanting it.

Only by serving God can we be truly free...
freed from all oppressing habits and ideas.
Free to think straight and choose what is best for us.
Jesus didn't teach for nothing....but to show us a better way.

 

[GracePeace]

Good thinking!
Yes. If we are serving satan we really do not have free will because we're bound up in what he wants us to do and it enslaves us in one way or another...think of drugs, harmful emotional situations, unhealthy habits, etc.

We are indeed slaves in need of salvation.
But we are free to accept that salvation or deny it.
Calvinists believe its §God that chooses the saved and the damned.

And yes, calvinists believe in compatiblist free will...
this simply means that God MAKES persons want what HE wants and so
they think it's really THEM wanting it.

Only by serving God can we be truly free...
freed from all oppressing habits and ideas.
Free to think straight and choose what is best for us.
Jesus didn't teach for nothing....but to show us a better way.

They object to the idea that we can fall away, because, they say, it would throw into question God's ability, because God is the Savior, not ourselves, and if we say we can lose salvation, then we would be saying He is not really good at being a Savior. It would tend to make people trust God less, they say.

That seems like it is a good point, but, also, if we define "salvation" as the Bible seemingly defines it in 1 Corinthians 10--as corresponding to salvation from Egypt, but not as corresponding to entering the Promised Land--it would seem there should be no objection to believing one can be destroyed under God's wrath for sinning after having been saved from the house of bondage.

 

[Johann]

They object to the idea that we can fall away, because, they say, it would throw into question God's ability, because God is the Savior, not ourselves, and if we say we can lose salvation, then we would be saying He is not really good at being a Savior. It would tend to make people trust God less, they say.

One question-

The issue on OSAS- There’s a lot of debate on this, so let’s break it down a bit.

On one side, people who support the idea of OSAS say that once you’re truly saved, you can’t lose your salvation. They point to verses like John 10:28-29 where Jesus says that no one can snatch us out of His hand. It’s like a promise that once you’re secure in Jesus, nothing can take that away.

Then there’s Romans 8:38-39, where Paul talks about how nothing can separate us from God’s love. They take that to mean that our salvation is secure and nothing can change that.

They also highlight Ephesians 2:8-9, which talks about how salvation is a gift from God and not something we earn. So if it’s a gift, it seems like it’s not something we could lose by our actions.

But, on the flip side, some argue that OSAS isn’t quite right because there are warnings in the Bible about falling away. For example, Hebrews 6:4-6 talks about people who have fallen away and says it’s really hard to bring them back to repentance. That sounds pretty serious.

There’s also 2 Peter 2:20-21, which warns that if someone turns back to their old ways after knowing the truth, their last state is worse than the first. It seems to suggest that falling away can have serious consequences.

Plus, Jesus and others talk about the need to endure in faith. Like in Matthew 24:13, Jesus says that those who endure to the end will be saved. And in Revelation 2:10, He tells us to be faithful even to the point of death to receive the crown of life.

So, while some scriptures suggest that once you’re saved, you’re always saved, others seem to emphasize the need for perseverance and faithfulness. It’s a bit of a balancing act between those promises of security and the call to remain steadfast in our faith.

What do you think about all this? It’s definitely a complex issue, but it’s important to look at all these angles when we’re trying to understand salvation.

Here is some info from the ECF's

Early Church Fathers on Salvation and Perseverance
Irenaeus (c. 130-202 AD):

On Perseverance: In his work Against Heresies, Irenaeus emphasizes the importance of continuing in faith and obedience. He argues that salvation requires perseverance and that it’s not guaranteed merely by initial belief. He wrote: “He who has been born again, and has received the Spirit, is not free from sin, but in process of being made perfect.”
Salvation and Free Will: Irenaeus also maintained that while God offers salvation, human free will plays a critical role in either accepting or rejecting it. He did not advocate for a fixed eternal security but rather a dynamic process of ongoing faithfulness.
Tertullian (c. 155-240 AD):

On Falling Away: Tertullian’s writings, especially in works like On Repentance, suggest that Christians could fall away from grace if they returned to sin. He argued that repentance was always available but also emphasized that falling away was a real danger. Tertullian wrote: “Those who have once been justified and then have fallen away from the faith are to be restored only by penance.”
Origen (c. 185-254 AD):

On Conditional Security: Origen’s writings reflect a view that salvation could be lost if a person turned away from faith. In his Commentary on John, he discussed the need for ongoing faith and the possibility of falling away. He believed that God’s grace was essential for salvation but that human cooperation and perseverance were also necessary.
Augustine of Hippo (354-430 AD):

On Perseverance and Grace: Augustine, who is often cited in discussions of OSAS, did believe in the perseverance of the saints but his view was nuanced. He wrote extensively on the grace of God and how it enables perseverance. In On the Gift of Perseverance, Augustine affirmed that God’s grace ensures the perseverance of those who are truly saved, but he also acknowledged the necessity of human cooperation with that grace.

What say you?

 

[GodsGrace]

They object to the idea that we can fall away, because, they say, it would throw into question God's ability, because God is the Savior, not ourselves, and if we say we can lose salvation, then we would be saying He is not really good at being a Savior. It would tend to make people trust God less, they say.

That seems like it is a good point, but, also, if we define "salvation" as the Bible seemingly defines it in 1 Corinthians 10--as corresponding to salvation from Egypt, but not as corresponding to entering the Promised Land--it would seem there should be no objection to believing one can be destroyed under God's wrath for sinning after having been saved from the house of bondage.

Right. God's sovereignty would come into question.
As if ALL Christians don't believe in God's sovereignty!
But it goes even beyond what you said.
IF GOD is choosing who is to be saved...then surely He will keep us saved.
Very close to what you've stated.

Except that these believers should read carefully what John Calvin wrote:
Book 3
Chapter 24
Paragraph 8

there are two species of calling: for there is an universal call, by which God, through the external preaching of the word, invites all men alike, even those for whom he designs the call to be a savor of death, and the ground of a severer condemnation. Besides this there is a special call which, for the most part, God bestows on believers only, when by the internal illumination of the Spirit he causes the word preached to take deep root in their hearts. Sometimes, however, he communicates it also to those whom he enlightens only for a time, and whom afterwards, in just punishment for their ingratitude, he abandons and smites with greater blindness.


Pretty serious.
God is loving, merciful and JUST.
A just God will not do what Calvin states up above.

 

[GodsGrace]

One question-

The issue on OSAS- There’s a lot of debate on this, so let’s break it down a bit.

On one side, people who support the idea of OSAS say that once you’re truly saved, you can’t lose your salvation. They point to verses like John 10:28-29 where Jesus says that no one can snatch us out of His hand. It’s like a promise that once you’re secure in Jesus, nothing can take that away.

Then there’s Romans 8:38-39, where Paul talks about how nothing can separate us from God’s love. They take that to mean that our salvation is secure and nothing can change that.

They also highlight Ephesians 2:8-9, which talks about how salvation is a gift from God and not something we earn. So if it’s a gift, it seems like it’s not something we could lose by our actions.

But, on the flip side, some argue that OSAS isn’t quite right because there are warnings in the Bible about falling away. For example, Hebrews 6:4-6 talks about people who have fallen away and says it’s really hard to bring them back to repentance. That sounds pretty serious.

There’s also 2 Peter 2:20-21, which warns that if someone turns back to their old ways after knowing the truth, their last state is worse than the first. It seems to suggest that falling away can have serious consequences.

Plus, Jesus and others talk about the need to endure in faith. Like in Matthew 24:13, Jesus says that those who endure to the end will be saved. And in Revelation 2:10, He tells us to be faithful even to the point of death to receive the crown of life.

So, while some scriptures suggest that once you’re saved, you’re always saved, others seem to emphasize the need for perseverance and faithfulness. It’s a bit of a balancing act between those promises of security and the call to remain steadfast in our faith.

What do you think about all this? It’s definitely a complex issue, but it’s important to look at all these angles when we’re trying to understand salvation.

The above all point to eternal security and not OSAS....
The difference:
Eternal security: If we CONTINUE to have faith in Jesus and ABIDE in Him....we will receive final salvation at the end of our life.
OSAS: No matter what a person does after salvation...he will be saved anyway because Jesus will save him from anything.
There's a member right here on this site that believes a person could sin for years (his words) and still be saved.

I agree with you that if salvation could not be forfeited, there would be no warnings in the NT...and there are many.

I will say this: It's difficult to make the argument for continuing in the faith when someone throws in your face that a person that fell away was never saved to begin with. How to argue with that?
Except that Jesus said everyone that falls away WAS ONCE SAVED.
Luke 8:13 HE BELIEVES FOR A WHILE.
Luke 15:24 THIS SON OF MINE WAS DEAD, AND IS ALIVE AGAIN.

Again means the person had faith, lost it, and found it AGAIN.
I tend to believe what Jesus says. Simple.

Here is some info from the ECF's

Early Church Fathers on Salvation and Perseverance
Irenaeus (c. 130-202 AD):

On Perseverance: In his work Against Heresies, Irenaeus emphasizes the importance of continuing in faith and obedience. He argues that salvation requires perseverance and that it’s not guaranteed merely by initial belief. He wrote: “He who has been born again, and has received the Spirit, is not free from sin, but in process of being made perfect.”
Salvation and Free Will: Irenaeus also maintained that while God offers salvation, human free will plays a critical role in either accepting or rejecting it. He did not advocate for a fixed eternal security but rather a dynamic process of ongoing faithfulness.
Tertullian (c. 155-240 AD):

On Falling Away: Tertullian’s writings, especially in works like On Repentance, suggest that Christians could fall away from grace if they returned to sin. He argued that repentance was always available but also emphasized that falling away was a real danger. Tertullian wrote: “Those who have once been justified and then have fallen away from the faith are to be restored only by penance.”
Origen (c. 185-254 AD):

On Conditional Security: Origen’s writings reflect a view that salvation could be lost if a person turned away from faith. In his Commentary on John, he discussed the need for ongoing faith and the possibility of falling away. He believed that God’s grace was essential for salvation but that human cooperation and perseverance were also necessary.
Augustine of Hippo (354-430 AD):

On Perseverance and Grace: Augustine, who is often cited in discussions of OSAS, did believe in the perseverance of the saints but his view was nuanced. He wrote extensively on the grace of God and how it enables perseverance. In On the Gift of Perseverance, Augustine affirmed that God’s grace ensures the perseverance of those who are truly saved, but he also acknowledged the necessity of human cooperation with that grace.

What say you?

The ECFs I've read all believed that a person had to show good works in order to be saved.
The ones you posted above also believe one could fall away.
OSAS was never taught in the early church.
This is the reason confession was instituted...so persons could be forgiven and remain in God's grace.

Do you agree?

 

[GracePeace]

The above all point to eternal security and not OSAS....
The difference:
Eternal security: If we CONTINUE to have faith in Jesus and ABIDE in Him....we will receive final salvation at the end of our life.
OSAS: No matter what a person does after salvation...he will be saved anyway because Jesus will save him from anything.
There's a member right here on this site that believes a person could sin for years (his words) and still be saved.

I agree with you that if salvation could not be forfeited, there would be no warnings in the NT...and there are many.

I will say this: It's difficult to make the argument for continuing in the faith when someone throws in your face that a person that fell away was never saved to begin with. How to argue with that?
Except that Jesus said everyone that falls away WAS ONCE SAVED.
Luke 8:13 HE BELIEVES FOR A WHILE.
Luke 15:24 THIS SON OF MINE WAS DEAD, AND IS ALIVE AGAIN.

Again means the person had faith, lost it, and found it AGAIN.
I tend to believe what Jesus says. Simple.


The ECFs I've read all believed that a person had to show good works in order to be saved.
The ones you posted above also believe one could fall away.
OSAS was never taught in the early church.
This is the reason confession was instituted...so persons could be forgiven and remain in God's grace.

Do you agree?

The clause many who believe in OSAS cite that leads to the misunderstanding that those who fall away were never saved ("They went out from us to prove they were never of us, for if they were of us they would have continued with us") seemingly can be answered in the fact that God can forget righteousness (Ezekiel 18:24), thus, if they fall away, it is as though they had never been saved at all, because God does not remember their faith (faith is counted as righteousness).

 

[th1b.taylor]

OSAS was only known among Gnoatics, and the Church fought it until a former Gnostic Christianized it.

Scripture teaches us that those who persevere will enter into Heaven. (Matthew 24:13) If one walks away and lives in sin until their demise, they were never believers unto death, they were Christian in name only. I know one right now, in her fifties, that served until the midforties but now lives like a pig, she looked like a Christian but scripture teaches she never was, she did not endure and you cannot give your Salvation away.

 

[GracePeace]

Scripture teaches us that those who persevere will enter into Heaven. (Matthew 24:13) If one walks away and lives in sin until their demise, they were never believers unto death, they were Christian in name only. I know one right now, in her fifties, that served until the midforties but now lives like a pig, she looked like a Christian but scripture teaches she never was, she did not endure and you cannot give your Salvation away.

We disagree about what the Bible says (ie, that if someone falls away they were never saved).

 

[Johann]

The ECFs I've read all believed that a person had to show good works in order to be saved.
The ones you posted above also believe one could fall away.
OSAS was never taught in the early church.
This is the reason confession was instituted...so persons could be forgiven and remain in God's grace.

Do you agree?

I'm a stickler for going to the Koine Greek and Hebrew Sorella but here's a question for you-

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Is it possible for the believer, once sealed by the Holy Spirit--to become "unsealed" later in life and thus forfeit everything?

And no, I don't believe a person can go on in a state of willful sinning and still profess to be a Christian-that's a caricature of that profession.

11:18 PM here in South Africa

 

[Johann]

The clause many who believe in OSAS cite that leads to the misunderstanding that those who fall away were never saved ("They went out from us to prove they were never of us, for if they were of us they would have continued with us") seemingly can be answered in the fact that God can forget righteousness (Ezekiel 18:24), thus, if they fall away, it is as though they had never been saved at all, because God does not remember their faith (faith is counted as righteousness).

This is not proper hermeneutics-no offense.

 

[Johann]

One question-

The issue on OSAS- There’s a lot of debate on this, so let’s break it down a bit.

On one side, people who support the idea of OSAS say that once you’re truly saved, you can’t lose your salvation. They point to verses like John 10:28-29 where Jesus says that no one can snatch us out of His hand. It’s like a promise that once you’re secure in Jesus, nothing can take that away.

Then there’s Romans 8:38-39, where Paul talks about how nothing can separate us from God’s love. They take that to mean that our salvation is secure and nothing can change that.

They also highlight Ephesians 2:8-9, which talks about how salvation is a gift from God and not something we earn. So if it’s a gift, it seems like it’s not something we could lose by our actions.

But, on the flip side, some argue that OSAS isn’t quite right because there are warnings in the Bible about falling away. For example, Hebrews 6:4-6 talks about people who have fallen away and says it’s really hard to bring them back to repentance. That sounds pretty serious.

There’s also 2 Peter 2:20-21, which warns that if someone turns back to their old ways after knowing the truth, their last state is worse than the first. It seems to suggest that falling away can have serious consequences.

Plus, Jesus and others talk about the need to endure in faith. Like in Matthew 24:13, Jesus says that those who endure to the end will be saved. And in Revelation 2:10, He tells us to be faithful even to the point of death to receive the crown of life.

So, while some scriptures suggest that once you’re saved, you’re always saved, others seem to emphasize the need for perseverance and faithfulness. It’s a bit of a balancing act between those promises of security and the call to remain steadfast in our faith.

What do you think about all this? It’s definitely a complex issue, but it’s important to look at all these angles when we’re trying to understand salvation.

Here is some info from the ECF's

Early Church Fathers on Salvation and Perseverance
Irenaeus (c. 130-202 AD):

On Perseverance: In his work Against Heresies, Irenaeus emphasizes the importance of continuing in faith and obedience. He argues that salvation requires perseverance and that it’s not guaranteed merely by initial belief. He wrote: “He who has been born again, and has received the Spirit, is not free from sin, but in process of being made perfect.”
Salvation and Free Will: Irenaeus also maintained that while God offers salvation, human free will plays a critical role in either accepting or rejecting it. He did not advocate for a fixed eternal security but rather a dynamic process of ongoing faithfulness.
Tertullian (c. 155-240 AD):

On Falling Away: Tertullian’s writings, especially in works like On Repentance, suggest that Christians could fall away from grace if they returned to sin. He argued that repentance was always available but also emphasized that falling away was a real danger. Tertullian wrote: “Those who have once been justified and then have fallen away from the faith are to be restored only by penance.”
Origen (c. 185-254 AD):

On Conditional Security: Origen’s writings reflect a view that salvation could be lost if a person turned away from faith. In his Commentary on John, he discussed the need for ongoing faith and the possibility of falling away. He believed that God’s grace was essential for salvation but that human cooperation and perseverance were also necessary.
Augustine of Hippo (354-430 AD):

On Perseverance and Grace: Augustine, who is often cited in discussions of OSAS, did believe in the perseverance of the saints but his view was nuanced. He wrote extensively on the grace of God and how it enables perseverance. In On the Gift of Perseverance, Augustine affirmed that God’s grace ensures the perseverance of those who are truly saved, but he also acknowledged the necessity of human cooperation with that grace.

What say you?

Niente.

 

[Christian Soldier]

They're pointing out the simple reality that OSAS was only known among Gnostic heretics until former Gnostic Augustine Christianized it.

Do you recognize that or no?

I don't recognize that because it's a lie. OSAS was taught by the Lord Jesus Christ and not by some sick and wicked gnostic heretics.

You have an abundance of scriptures confirming OSAS, you don't need wicked men to tell you what to believe. He who trusts in man is cursed by God.

 

[GracePeace]

I don't recognize that because it's a lie. OSAS was taught by the Lord Jesus Christ and not by some sick and wicked gnostic heretics.

You have an abundance of scriptures confirming OSAS, you don't need wicked men to tell you what to believe. He who trusts in man is cursed by God.

The presentation says the early church, for hundreds of years, fought OSAS as a heresy of the Gnostics--until Augustine, a former Gnostic, Christianized it.

We disagree that Jesus teaches OSAS (eg, Matthew 18 the parable of the unforgiving servant).

 

[GracePeace]

This is not proper hermeneutics-no offense.

Your rejection of my view is based on improper hermeneutics--no offense.

 

[th1b.taylor]

The presentation says the early church, for hundreds of years, fought OSAS as a heresy of the Gnostics--until Augustine, a former Gnostic, Christianized it.

We disagree that Jesus teaches OSAS (eg, Matthew 18 the parable of the unforgiving servant).

Christians do not live by man-made presentations but by faith in the Word of Yehovah.

 

[GracePeace]

Christians do not live by man-made presentations but by faith in the Word of Yehovah.

We know, from Church history, that the Word of God which the Churches lived by compelled them to fight OSAS for its first few hundred years, because it was part and parcel of fighting Gnosticism, because OSAS was not believed in by the early Church, but was foreign to the early Church that followed God's Word, having originated with the Gnostics.