The mark of the Man/beast
- Thread starter Stewardofthemystery
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Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
How do you know? Do you think He is okay with you trying to take His job by condemning other people?
Jesus said in John 15:1-10 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.2 Every branch inme that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.3 Now ye are cleanthrough the word which I have spoken unto you.4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide inmy love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.”
Ok, some claim all Christians still "abide in sin",and that they "keep on sinning" even though they claim to have been born again of God's Holy Spirit. And even despite that ongoing disobedience and reoccurring sin they proclaim you still "abide inChrist". This my friends is false doctrine, because you cannot remain in sin and also remain inChrist at the same time.
Notice Jesus said in order to bear fruit one must"abide in Him", that also means believing in and abiding in His words. And here is what it means to abide in Him…
1 John 3:9 “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.”
The "seed" mentioned there is "Christ".
And again to "abide in Christ" is to 1 John 3:6“Whosoeverabideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinnethhath not seen him, neither known him.”
So the simple truth is in order to bear good fruit we must "abide in Christ", which is to "abide in God's Word". And as we saw above to "abide in His love" we must keep His commandments" And to abide in Christ and remain in Christ one must stop sinning, because sinning is not abiding in Gods Word, neither is sinning abiding in the faith of Christ.
Now if one is still sinning are they truly "inChrist"? Not according to the words of God. Also we are shown in John 15 what happens if one inHim does not bear good fruit, Jesus said in John 15:2 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away:”
So anyone in him that does not bear good fruit he takes away, meaning you will no longer "abide in"the Life of Christ (the vine).
And not only that we are told in verse 6 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."
That is not salvation people, that is Destruction.
Also we cannot bear good fruit on our own except we abide in Him John 15:4 “Abide in me, and I inyou. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.”
And again, to abide in Christ means you cannotabide in sin. Sin is not good fruit.
And if you remain in sin, then you truly don’t "abide in Christ" do you? And as Jesus said, those who do not "abide in Him" are cast forth as a branch, and then gathered and cast into the fireand burned.
Christ is not a vine of sin (minister of sin) Galatians 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
Anyone who says you can abide in sin and still remain in Christ at the same time is a liar and a deceiver.
It is written in 2 John 9-10 “ Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:”
It is your sins that separate you from God…
Isaiah 59:2 “But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.”
Just as Jesus is separated from sinners…..
Hebrews 7:26 “For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;”
And again "in Christ" there is no sin….. 1 John 3…..
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him."
And to Love God and to "abide in Christ" is to keep His commandments….
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwells in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.”
Abide in the Light of the Truth….1 John 2…..
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not inhim.5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.”
Did Jesus walk in sin? Of course not!
Jesus said in John 12:46 " I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believes on me should not "abide in darkness."
Meaning you should not abide in "the works of darkness," which is sin.
Also no false doctrine, or lie is of the Truth…..21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is ofthe truth.”
Just as the prince of this world and his spirit has no place in Christ either…. John 14:30 “Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.”
Sin and darkness do not abide in the Light of Christ, and neither do those who still abide in sin and in darkness.
Jesus said whosoever commits sin is a servant of sin, and a servant of sin will not abide in His house forever.
Brethren, abide in Christ. Peace and God bless
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide inmy love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.”
Ok, some claim all Christians still "abide in sin",and that they "keep on sinning" even though they claim to have been born again of God's Holy Spirit. And even despite that ongoing disobedience and reoccurring sin they proclaim you still "abide inChrist". This my friends is false doctrine, because you cannot remain in sin and also remain inChrist at the same time.
Notice Jesus said in order to bear fruit one must"abide in Him", that also means believing in and abiding in His words. And here is what it means to abide in Him…
1 John 3:9 “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.”
The "seed" mentioned there is "Christ".
And again to "abide in Christ" is to 1 John 3:6“Whosoeverabideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinnethhath not seen him, neither known him.”
So the simple truth is in order to bear good fruit we must "abide in Christ", which is to "abide in God's Word". And as we saw above to "abide in His love" we must keep His commandments" And to abide in Christ and remain in Christ one must stop sinning, because sinning is not abiding in Gods Word, neither is sinning abiding in the faith of Christ.
Now if one is still sinning are they truly "inChrist"? Not according to the words of God. Also we are shown in John 15 what happens if one inHim does not bear good fruit, Jesus said in John 15:2 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away:”
So anyone in him that does not bear good fruit he takes away, meaning you will no longer "abide in"the Life of Christ (the vine).
And not only that we are told in verse 6 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."
That is not salvation people, that is Destruction.
Also we cannot bear good fruit on our own except we abide in Him John 15:4 “Abide in me, and I inyou. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.”
And again, to abide in Christ means you cannotabide in sin. Sin is not good fruit.
And if you remain in sin, then you truly don’t "abide in Christ" do you? And as Jesus said, those who do not "abide in Him" are cast forth as a branch, and then gathered and cast into the fireand burned.
Christ is not a vine of sin (minister of sin) Galatians 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
Anyone who says you can abide in sin and still remain in Christ at the same time is a liar and a deceiver.
It is written in 2 John 9-10 “ Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:”
It is your sins that separate you from God…
Isaiah 59:2 “But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.”
Just as Jesus is separated from sinners…..
Hebrews 7:26 “For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;”
And again "in Christ" there is no sin….. 1 John 3…..
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him."
And to Love God and to "abide in Christ" is to keep His commandments….
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwells in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.”
Abide in the Light of the Truth….1 John 2…..
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not inhim.5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.”
Did Jesus walk in sin? Of course not!
Jesus said in John 12:46 " I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believes on me should not "abide in darkness."
Meaning you should not abide in "the works of darkness," which is sin.
Also no false doctrine, or lie is of the Truth…..21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is ofthe truth.”
Just as the prince of this world and his spirit has no place in Christ either…. John 14:30 “Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.”
Sin and darkness do not abide in the Light of Christ, and neither do those who still abide in sin and in darkness.
Jesus said whosoever commits sin is a servant of sin, and a servant of sin will not abide in His house forever.
Brethren, abide in Christ. Peace and God bless
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Abiding in Christ does not require being sinless as you falsely imagine with your ultra hyperliteral approach to scripture. You make salvation partly dependent on your own righteousness which contradicts many scriptures. There's no place for grace in your theology. Scripture very clearly says we are saved by grace through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8-10), but you don't believe that. You say we are saved by our works because you believe we must be sinless to be saved. You don't look at the big picture. You read some scriptures in a hyperliteral way with no care of whether your interpretation of those scriptures lines up with the rest of scripture or not.
You make no differentiation between willful and unwillful sin like scripture does.
You don't differentiate between this:
Romans 7:19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
And this:
Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Paul talked in Romans 7 about how we can want to do what is good and right but do what is not right instead. He said when that happens "it is sin living in me that does it". Our flesh or sinful nature is always warring against us and that is what Paul was talking about. It is contrary to our mind and our desires and to the Holy Spirit dwelling in us. The only solution to that is described in Romans 8 where Paul talks about the need for us to submit to the Holy Spirit in order to overcome our flesh. But, never does he say if we don't submit to the Holy Spirit without fail at literally all times then we are condemned. Again, there is no place for grace in your theology, which is a very bad thing.
God does not immediately condemn someone for sinning as you falsely imagine. Believing that you are sinless and must be sinless in order to maintain your salvation directly contradicts this passage:
1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
John is talking here to Christians who had repented of their sins and put their faith in Christ for their salvation. He includes himself in what he said there. He said "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves". You are deceiving yourself by saying you don't sin. And he said "If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar". You are making God a liar. Let God be true and every man a liar. You are the liar, not God. John made it clear that we still sin after becoming Christians, but that doesn't condemn us because "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness". I have to say once again that your doctrine removes God's grace from the requirements of salvation and it depends on your own righteousness and works for salvation. This directly contradicts many scripture passages. Cherry picking scripture to form a doctrine while ignoring many other scriptures is how false doctrine is formed.
Hebrews 10:26-27 makes it clear that it is willful sin that can lead to judgment. That's talking about willfully rebellion against God and no longer desiring to obey Him and wanting to do whatever we want instead. Which is different than what Paul wrote about in Romans 7:14-25. Yes, we have the Holy Spirit and He helps us overcome our flesh/sinful nature, but to think we have to perfectly submit to the Spirit's leading at all times in order to maintain our salvation is simply not taught in scripture and thinking that way causes you to deceive yourself and make God out to be a liar.
It's unfortunate that you feel the pressure of saving yourself by being perfect and sinless which you can't do. Why did Jesus die for us if we can be sinless ourselves? No, only He could be sinless which is why we need to submit to Him and have His righteousness imputed to us rather than trying to save ourselves by our own righteousness like you are trying to do. We are saved by grace through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8-10). You have no understanding of that. Abiding in Christ does not mean we have to be sinless, it means we have to continue trusting in Him for our salvation rather than ourselves.
You trust in yourself for salvation. That is not how to abide in Christ. It's an insult to Christ because you say salvation is not just by His work on the cross, but by your works as well. That is false. The only work necessary for salvation was Christ's work on the cross when He shed His blood for our sins. Our part is to trust in Him and follow Him. If we sin it does not mean we're sinning because we have decided to no longer follow Him. Paul said we can sin without wanting to. God is gracious enough to forgive us when we sin. He is not just waiting for us to slip up so He can condemn us. Again, you remove God's grace from the requirements for salvation. That is a terrible thing to do. It is only when someone willfully rebels against God and indicates that they no longer want to follow Christ that it leads to judgment and "fiery indignation".
Of course you follow the doctrine of men! You believe that when Christ returns, He will establish the Kingdom of God on this earth, and He will physically reign upon this earth for one thousand years! You've been repeatedly asked to PROVE this by showing from the Bible where this manmade doctrine is found. Instead of admitting that there are no verses to support your doctrine, you ignore, or belittle others who are using the Bible to prove why this doctrine called Premillennialism is FALSE!
Here's the rub, you say if we don't follow YOUR imagined truth, then we have NOT the Spirit of God! But you can't even prove your doctrine from the very Word of TRUTH you claim to espouse!
It's YOUR truth we refuse to hear! Because YOUR truth regarding Rev 20 is NOT Biblical TRUTH! We know this because you cannot PROVE what you allege from the Word of God! So, when you point your finger toward others, remember you have three fingers pointing back at you!
Then you reject the words of God…
And again "in Christ" there is no sin….. 1 John 3…..
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him."
False accusation. I never said. But it is written that if you are under grace then sin will have no dominion over you, meaning you will not keep sinning.
I never said we are saved by our own works, another false accusation.
Another strawman
Romans 7 is the sinners favorite chapter in the Bible. They think it supports their sinful lifestyle. But what they don’t understand is WHY Paul was speaking that way to these CARNAL Christian’s. Paul told them he was speaking to them after the manner of the sinful man BECAUSE of the weakness of THEIR FLESH.
Paul was talking about the 2 natures (flesh vs Spirit) warring against one another. Being carnal and being in the flesh is the enmity that Christ came to remove in us when we are born again. That Romans 7 condition of being in the flesh is put to death in us when we are born again of the Spirit.
Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Why do you constantly try to misrepresent my position? Very snake like.
This is another favorite verse for sinners. All John is saying here is the same as Paul said “for all have sinned”. John is not advocating that we all keep on sinning, that would contradict what he said about those who are born of God that cannot sin. There are those who do not believe in God, so they don’t believe in sin either. John was addressing this type of people.
You keep going back to Romans 7 like it is your excuse to keep on sinning, but you do not understand what Paul is saying about being under the law of sin and death. That is what we need to be made free from. Read Romans 6 and 8 to see how you are made free from the Romans 7 condition.
Romans 6:18
Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Romans 6:22
But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
I wrote a study on the Romans 7 confusion …
I have come across a grave error in my internet travels, and that error is in thinking that the law of God is a curse, and is sin.
The law of God is also the words of God; and so I would ask, is God's words also sin and death? Of course not! And for one to equate God's words of Life as sin and death is nothing short of blasphemy in my opinion.
It would be the same as equating the works of the Holy Spirit to the works of the Devil. Many believe the Law of God is "the law of sin and death" that Paul spoke of in his letters. But Paul makes clear in Romans 7:7 that the law of God is not sin.
So what is the law of sin and death? I compare the law of sin and death to be much like the law of gravity; we are all firstborn “under it”naturally by reason of Adams original sin.
Romans 5:12 “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:”
As it is also written in Romans 5:19 “For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners,” So as it is also written, “by nature”we were the children of wrath Ephesians 2:3; and as by the judgement of one for sin was unto condemnationRomans 5:16 as the wages of sin is death= being “under the law of sin and death.”
It is an absolute principle “in nature,”much like the law of gravity.
We know this condemnation of sin was already in the world before the Law of Moses because sin and death already reigned in the world.
Romans 5:13 Notice we are told death reigned Romans 5:14“Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.”
That is an important clue in understanding what it means to be “under the law of sin and death.”
When you are under the law of sin you are a “servant of sin,” like sin being the Devils desire “ruling over”you as it is written in Romans 5:21 “That as sin hath reigned unto death…”
People try to use Romans 7 as an excuse for ongoing sin, even saying Paul was still struggling with sin. But one needs to keep in mind what Paul said to his audience in Romans 6:19
19 I speak after “the manner of men”because of the infirmity of your flesh:”
Paul was trying to relate to a “carnal”audience who was still “struggling with sin” because they were still in “the flesh"(as is the “mannerism”of mankind) like a natural brute beast.
What Paul was showing in Romans 7 was the struggle and “enmity between” the law of the flesh and the law of the Spirit, as these 2 spirits and 2 natures are contrary to one another.
Notice in Romans 7 we are shown 2 laws, one is “the law of sin and death,” and the other is the law of God. We already saw in Romans 7:7 that the law of God is not sin, now notice Paul confirms in verse 13 the law of God is not death either.
Romans 7:12-25 "Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then “a law,”that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see “another law”in my members, warringagainst the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to “the law of sin”which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with “the flesh” the law of sin.
In the above we see the 2 laws at work (flesh vs. Spirit) warring against one another. But are we to remain in this state of captivity and bondage being under the law of sin and death?
Scripture gives us the answer to this as well in Romans 8:1-4 “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus “hath made me free from the law of sin and death.”
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak “through the flesh,”God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.”
What we see in the above is walking after the fleshis serving sin and =being “under the law of sin and death.”
Thus when we are born again of the Spirit we are no longer walking in the lusts of the flesh.
Notice what Paul says in Romans 8:9 “But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.”
So it is the Spirit of Christ (the law of the Spirit of Life) that makes us free from the first nature and law that desires to walk in the flesh and serve sin.
Now some might say this does not mean we are set free from sin and death, just that we are set free from the law of God.
But that is not what is being said above by Paul. To what benefit would it serve to be only set free from a holy law, and not be made free from sin and death?
All that would amount to is a bunch of lawless sinners. Besides that, the Gentiles were never even under the Law of Moses to begin with, so how can you be set free from a law that you were never even under? Makes no sense.
But the law that both Jews and Gentiles are firstborn “under,”is the “law of sin and death.”
Romans 3:9 “What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are “all under sin;”
So hopefully you will see in this that it is sin you truly need to be made free from, because a servant of sin abides not in the house forever.
I have come across a grave error in my internet travels, and that error is in thinking that the law of God is a curse, and is sin.
The law of God is also the words of God; and so I would ask, is God's words also sin and death? Of course not! And for one to equate God's words of Life as sin and death is nothing short of blasphemy in my opinion.
It would be the same as equating the works of the Holy Spirit to the works of the Devil. Many believe the Law of God is "the law of sin and death" that Paul spoke of in his letters. But Paul makes clear in Romans 7:7 that the law of God is not sin.
So what is the law of sin and death? I compare the law of sin and death to be much like the law of gravity; we are all firstborn “under it”naturally by reason of Adams original sin.
Romans 5:12 “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:”
As it is also written in Romans 5:19 “For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners,” So as it is also written, “by nature”we were the children of wrath Ephesians 2:3; and as by the judgement of one for sin was unto condemnationRomans 5:16 as the wages of sin is death= being “under the law of sin and death.”
It is an absolute principle “in nature,”much like the law of gravity.
We know this condemnation of sin was already in the world before the Law of Moses because sin and death already reigned in the world.
Romans 5:13 Notice we are told death reigned Romans 5:14“Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.”
That is an important clue in understanding what it means to be “under the law of sin and death.”
When you are under the law of sin you are a “servant of sin,” like sin being the Devils desire “ruling over”you as it is written in Romans 5:21 “That as sin hath reigned unto death…”
People try to use Romans 7 as an excuse for ongoing sin, even saying Paul was still struggling with sin. But one needs to keep in mind what Paul said to his audience in Romans 6:19
19 I speak after “the manner of men”because of the infirmity of your flesh:”
Paul was trying to relate to a “carnal”audience who was still “struggling with sin” because they were still in “the flesh"(as is the “mannerism”of mankind) like a natural brute beast.
What Paul was showing in Romans 7 was the struggle and “enmity between” the law of the flesh and the law of the Spirit, as these 2 spirits and 2 natures are contrary to one another.
Notice in Romans 7 we are shown 2 laws, one is “the law of sin and death,” and the other is the law of God. We already saw in Romans 7:7 that the law of God is not sin, now notice Paul confirms in verse 13 the law of God is not death either.
Romans 7:12-25 "Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then “a law,”that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see “another law”in my members, warringagainst the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to “the law of sin”which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with “the flesh” the law of sin.
In the above we see the 2 laws at work (flesh vs. Spirit) warring against one another. But are we to remain in this state of captivity and bondage being under the law of sin and death?
Scripture gives us the answer to this as well in Romans 8:1-4 “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus “hath made me free from the law of sin and death.”
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak “through the flesh,”God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.”
What we see in the above is walking after the fleshis serving sin and =being “under the law of sin and death.”
Thus when we are born again of the Spirit we are no longer walking in the lusts of the flesh.
Notice what Paul says in Romans 8:9 “But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.”
So it is the Spirit of Christ (the law of the Spirit of Life) that makes us free from the first nature and law that desires to walk in the flesh and serve sin.
Now some might say this does not mean we are set free from sin and death, just that we are set free from the law of God.
But that is not what is being said above by Paul. To what benefit would it serve to be only set free from a holy law, and not be made free from sin and death?
All that would amount to is a bunch of lawless sinners. Besides that, the Gentiles were never even under the Law of Moses to begin with, so how can you be set free from a law that you were never even under? Makes no sense.
But the law that both Jews and Gentiles are firstborn “under,”is the “law of sin and death.”
Romans 3:9 “What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are “all under sin;”
So hopefully you will see in this that it is sin you truly need to be made free from, because a servant of sin abides not in the house forever.
These verses alone prove AMIL
to be FALSE doctrine.
Revelation 5:9-10
King James Version
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign (((on the earth.)))
Revelation 20:4-6
King James Version
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Those who resist this Truth also resist the Holy Spirit. Case closed.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
No willful sin like Hebrews 10:26-27 talks about. That's talking about willfully being in rebellion against God. Paul talked in Romans 7 about how it's possible to sin despite not wanting to and that is not willful sin like Hebrews 10:26-27 talks about. You saying you have not sinned means you are deceiving yourself and making God a liar, as John said in 1 John 1:8-10. You are deceived by your own false doctrine.
Not a false accusation at all. Grace means that God does not condemn us for sin and we can be forgiven for it. But, in your doctrine a person is immediately condemned if they sin. That's not grace. You clearly have no understanding at all of God's grace and no understanding that your righteousness is as filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6). Your attempt to save yourself by your own righteousness has failed and you need to repent of thinking that your works and righteousness have anything to do with your salvation.
Not a false accusation at all. You believe that you are saved by your own works and righteousness because you believe you have to maintain your salvation by being sinless, which is not something that just automatically happens. We're not robots or puppets.
Wrong! Talk about a strawman. I never said that gives us license to sin. It explains the battle that goes on inside of us, but there's more to the story as we can see in Romans 8. But, nowhere does Paul say we need to be sinless in order to be saved. There's no grace in your theology. Your doctrine contradicts that fact that we are saved by God's grace through faith and not by our own works and righteousness.
Says the guy who makes God out to be a liar by his false doctrine of salvation by sinlessness (1 John 1:10). I'm showing the implications of your position and it's making you uncomfortable.
Strawman alert. I'm not advocating for sin, I'm saying we can be forgiven if we do sin and I'm saying that not all sin is willful like Hebrews 10:26-27 is talking about. Why do you act as if all sin is due to willful rebellion against God and a rejection of Christ? That's nonsense. The only way we can overcome the flesh (sinful nature) is by submitting to the Holy Spirit which any true Christian wants to do all the time. But, your doctrine removes God's grace from the equation and doesn't allow for us to ever slip up. If we win even one time we're doomed according to your doctrine. That's not how salvation works. Salvation is by grace through faith and not by works. If we sin even though we don't want to that doesn't mean we've lost our faith. That's ridiculous. Yet, that's exactly what you believe.
No, it is not! You are the one making strawman arguments. I bring that up to show how the flesh/sinful nature works against us despite what we want to do. You act as if there is no battle going on inside of us which is ridiculous. Are you not human? You are so brainwashed by this sinless perfection doctrine.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
No, they do not! I have addressed these verses multiple times and you are too cowardly to address my understanding of them. Your closed-mindedness will not help you see the truth. You ignore the part in Revelation 5:10 that says we have already been MADE kings and priests, which is what it says in Revelation 1:5-6 as well. And 1 Peter 2:9 says we ARE "a royal priesthood". Why would we be a royal priesthood now without reigning NOW? You are too cowardly to even address this. You'd rather just run away with your tail between your legs than actually look at all of this honestly.
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More accusations
Another attempt to misrepresent what I have posted.
Another misrepresentation of what I believe.
Another misrepresentation of what I believe.
More false accusations
Another lie
Clearly you are trying your best to misrepresent what I believe. Very snake like.
More accusations. You have just been cut off because all you do is lie, slander, and try to misrepresent what others are saying.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
I'm going by what you have said and am not lying. It must be that you are not communicating what you believe very clearly if I'm misrepresenting your view. So, why not explain your view more clearly then? You can start by answering this question. Do you believe that once a person is initially saved/born of the Spirit that they must be sinless after that in order to maintain their salvation? I ask that because that is what you are strongly implying in your posts. If I have that wrong, then just explain to me what you do believe instead of always just being offended and wanting to run away.
You can't come to a forum like this and share your views without expecting any opposition and without being prepared to defend your views. You can't be offended just because someone disagrees with you. And you can't be offended just because someone misunderstands you. As if it can't be your fault at all for not communicating clearly enough.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Explain, if you can, how these passages support Christ returning to this earth to live and reign here for one thousand years? You do realize that both of these visions shown John are visions of/from heaven, and are NOT visions of things that come to pass on this earath?
Revelation 5:9-10
King James Version
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign ((((((((on the earth.))))))))
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