There is only one true church

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Augustin56

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This is definitely about authority.
My argument with Protestantism is that anyone can read the NT and make of it what he will.
Actually, I wonder if this is true or if we all just sit under some authority or other.
But, yes, if we can all come to our own truth - then there is no TRUTH.
Truth must be absolute.
Protestantism is a mess.
Who can know what the truth is within that mess?

My niece decided to become Catholic after being raised Protestant.
I was happy to hear this and thought I might be able to do RCIA with her,
which my priest agreed to, but the Bishop had doubts because she doesn't live here
and would be going back to the US. I think he made a mistake for reasons I won't get
into, but whatever...I feel like the church turned someone away. This is the same Bishop who gives
a blessing to the Biker Convention near here ON HIS BIKE, as he's riding along.
I can hardly stand it anymore.

Anyway, I think all churches teach something or other that I have difficulty with.
Now, the church is becoming more lax and I was actually told by a priest away from my home,
(because these already accept me as I am) that I didn't have to accept all dogma or doctrine and still
consider myself a Catholic. Now, I don't agree with that and do not identify myself as Catholic.
So when I read some posters here with their die-hard teachings,,,it just makes me wonder what good they think
they're doing by being so mean and insistent.

I guess what I'm saying is that I have a little bit of difficulty with authority - at least the way I understand it.
Seems like I have to read everything for myself....guess I'm Protestant in that way.



Agreed.
God is ministering the sacraments -- not the priest.
Although, if you know something or other about the priest, it does tend to make one mistrust the entire church.
Unfortunately, most Catholics do not know their doctrine well and depend too much on what they "see".
I live in a small community and all is known about practically everybody.


OK.
Except this priest is a Catholic theologian and speaks 6 or 7 languages and has taught even in the middle east.
Since you're willing to listen, I'll also tell you this: A priest here in the next town over told THE CONGREGATION one Sunday, about 4 years ago....that the church APOLOGIZES for teaching about hell because hell does not exist! Now, we conservatives were up in arms but, as you can imagine, many were pretty happy to hear it. I won't go to Mass there anymore.

I think the church is in some trouble and it doesn't quite know how to get out of it.
At least over here.
I think it should hang tight to its Traditions and traditions, but it doesn't listen to me!
And I think this Pope needs to go.
Let me start at the end and work my way back.

The office of theologian carries no ecclesial authority with it. They have no authority, on their own, to declare doctrine. The job of theologians is to seek deeper meaning to existing truths, never to try to change an existing truth. The job of theologian is wrought with danger, the danger of becoming prideful, which can blind one to the truth. Being a priest or a theologian carries no guarantee that one cannot create error or sin. In fact, much depends on where and when he attended seminary and got his education. I knew of one priest who, when he left the Air Force to seek a seminary (early 1970's, I think), traveled all over the U.S., looking for one that was acceptable seminary and could not find one! He and another guy in the same situation went to Europe and ended up going to seminary in Italy. Another priest I knew (nteresting story), had gotten his masters degree here in the states and was sent to Navarre University in Spain to get his doctorate. He didn't know Spanish, so he took a full emersion course when he got there for about a month. Then, they told him they didn't recognize his masters degree from the U.S., but he would be allowed to take the test for a masters degree there, This consisted of the candidates randomly selecting a ball with a number on it from a bin, then matching the number up with a list of topics. They had 5 minutes to prepare a 45 minute lecture on that topic, before a board of professors, after which was a question and answer period. He had been told by someone that since English was his main language, he would be able to do his lecture in English. But when he got up, he asked, "En ignles, si?" They said, "No! En Castellano!" (Castillian Spanish)! He panicked and prayed for help. Then, he just began in Spanish, "En el principio..." (Genesis 1:1 - In the beginning...) He talked for 45 minutes and answered the questions. When it was all done, they posted the grades in the hall outside for everyone. A buddy asked him how he did, and he said, "I have no idea. I don't speak enough Spanish to be able to tell!" So, his friend looked and said, "Wow! You got the highest score!" God works in mysterious ways!

With regard to lay Catholics, I fully agree. The vast majority of Catholics in this country have about a half-understood 2nd or 3rd grade education in the faith. CCD has been horrible the last couple of generations. In fact, the joke is that CCD actually stands for Color, Cut, and Draw, meaning it's just an art class. Color pictures of Jesus, etc. It's starting to come around, though. I belong to a large university parish and have taught CCD for many years. I'm really impressed by these young people and their expression of faith! College students! Great attendance at daily Mass, Adoration, events, etc. Church is packed during the school year (not so much the Summer because for whatever looney toon reason, they doubled the tuition during the Summar only).

I blame much of the problems the world is experiencing currently on the failure of the Catholic Church to do its job well. It actually does have the fullness of Christ's truths and all the Sacraments, etc., that Christ gave it that are necessary to create saints, but it has been very ineffective in doing what it should be doing. This is not new, though. Throughout all of the history of Christianity, there have been ebbs and flows in faith. Then, God steps in, shakes things up and provides what's needed to get back on track again, like any good Father.

God doesn't live in time, but in eternity. He sees all of creation from beginning to end. He isn't reactive. He knows exactly how everything will happen, when and how. He allows bad things to happen in order to bring about a greater good.
 
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Augustin56

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Here is your irrefutable evidence of 'Sola Scriptura', DIRECT = from God's Mouth to our ears!!!

Matthew 4:4 = “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’ ”
What you're doing is called eisegesis. The word eisegesis literally means “to lead into,” which means the interpreter injects his own ideas into the text, making it mean whatever he wants.

The opposite of that is exegesis. The word exegesis literally means “to lead out of.” That means that the interpreter is led to his conclusions by following the text.

The only way you can come to your conclusion that Matthew 4:4 supports Sola ScripturaI is by eisegesis.

Not every word of God is written in Scripture (see John 21:25). Yet, God commanded the Apostles to teach ALL that He had taught them. (Matt. 28:20) So, if everything Jesus taught is not IN Scripture, but is to be taught, where's the part that is to be taught that is not IN Scripture? It is in Oral Tradition, which St. Paul puts on an equal footing with Written Tradition (Scripture). 2 Thes 2:15.
 

GodsGrace

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Here is your irrefutable evidence #1, of 'Sola Scriptura', DIRECT = from God's Mouth to our ears!!!

Matthew 4:4 = “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’ ”
OK David.
Are we living by every word that come out of God's mouth?

There's a member on this Forum who stated, only yesterday,
that we could live a life of sin and still go to heaven.

Do you agree?
No?

Then why the disagreement if SCRIPTURE ALONE is all that is needed?
 
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David in NJ

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What you're doing is called eisegesis. The word eisegesis literally means “to lead into,” which means the interpreter injects his own ideas into the text, making it mean whatever he wants.

The opposite of that is exegesis. The word exegesis literally means “to lead out of.” That means that the interpreter is led to his conclusions by following the text.

The only way you can come to your conclusion that Matthew 4:4 supports Sola ScripturaI is by eisegesis.

Not every word of God is written in Scripture (see John 21:25). Yet, God commanded the Apostles to teach ALL that He had taught them. (Matt. 28:20) So, if everything Jesus taught is not IN Scripture, but is to be taught, where's the part that is to be taught that is not IN Scripture? It is in Oral Tradition, which St. Paul puts on an equal footing with Written Tradition (Scripture). 2 Thes 2:15.
You have me cracking up on this one - thank you
 

David in NJ

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OK David.
Are we living by every word that come out of God's mouth?

There's a member on this Forum who stated, only yesterday,
that we could live a life of sin and still go to heaven.

Do you agree?
No?

Then why the disagreement if SCRIPTURE ALONE is all that is needed?
Sola Scriptura says: "These words I speak to you, they are Spirit and they are Life" = John 6:63
 

David in NJ

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And you are twisting that to mean Sola Scriptura. You have me cracking up on this one - thank you.
Sola Scriptura says: "But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him." - Hebrews 11:6
 

amigo de christo

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You have me cracking up on this one - thank you
I would like to say i am cracking up with you , BUT MYGOODNESS this is one deadly situtation a lot o folks be under .
And a whole lot of folks are and have been following aspects and teachings of men gone wrong
and a lot of them dont even know they do .
WHEN this gringo hollers bible time . IT actually means BIBLE TIME .
TIME TO DROP the doctrines of men and start over in just the bible .
Now one might be tempted to pick up a commentary or a book they pastor wrote
DONT . Pick up ONLY the BIBLE david . ONLY the bible . dont go looking for koine greek
dont go looking to any group , we must read it for us .
Now by grace i did this david . WITH ZERO outside influence and have done so
for over eighteen years . Loving it and enjoying it .
I am telling us all , WE BESS ALL do the same . not that we got eighteen years left
but i think you know my point . Lets spend some hours in that lovely bible ever day
SOMETHING amazing GONNA HAPPEN in time . I mean something miraclous even .
WE GONNA REALIZE WE BEEN DUPED just like i did . and that a number so high no man can count
of every denomination known to man has been decieved . i know that is gonna sting a bit
for many , but remember when mama put medicine on us how it stung , but man it sure did work didnt it .
You all would be amazed , heck we all would .
 
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GodsGrace

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Let me start at the end and work my way back.

The office of theologian carries no ecclesial authority with it. They have no authority, on their own, to declare doctrine.

True.
The priest re hell made a big mistake and I don't still understand how the Bishop did not stop him or correct him.
I'd have stories to tell but they'd be too many.

The job of theologians is to seek deeper meaning to existing truths, never to try to change an existing truth. The job of theologian is wrought with danger, the danger of becoming prideful, which can blind one to the truth. Being a priest or a theologian carries no guarantee that one cannot create error or sin.

Very true. They should, however, know more than we do.
But they also carry with them their own personal beliefs and life experiences.

In fact, much depends on where and when he attended seminary and got his education. I knew of one priest who, when he left the Air Force to seek a seminary (early 1970's, I think), traveled all over the U.S., looking for one that was acceptable seminary and could not find one! He and another guy in the same situation went to Europe and ended up going to seminary in Italy. Another priest I knew (nteresting story), had gotten his masters degree here in the states and was sent to Navarre University in Spain to get his doctorate. He didn't know Spanish, so he took a full emersion course when he got there for about a month. Then, they told him they didn't recognize his masters degree from the U.S., but he would be allowed to take the test for a masters degree there, This consisted of the candidates randomly selecting a ball with a number on it from a bin, then matching the number up with a list of topics. They had 5 minutes to prepare a 45 minute lecture on that topic,

Wow!

before a board of professors, after which was a question and answer period. He had been told by someone that since English was his main language, he would be able to do his lecture in English. But when he got up, he asked, "En ignles, si?" They said, "No! En Castellano!" (Castillian Spanish)! He panicked and prayed for help. Then, he just began in Spanish, "En el principio..." (Genesis 1:1 - In the beginning...) He talked for 45 minutes and answered the questions. When it was all done, they posted the grades in the hall outside for everyone. A buddy asked him how he did, and he said, "I have no idea. I don't speak enough Spanish to be able to tell!" So, his friend looked and said, "Wow! You got the highest score!" God works in mysterious ways!

Jesus said He would send the Helper after He left.

With regard to lay Catholics, I fully agree. The vast majority of Catholics in this country have about a half-understood 2nd or 3rd grade education in the faith. CCD has been horrible the last couple of generations. In fact, the joke is that CCD actually stands for Color, Cut, and Draw, meaning it's just an art class.

Same here. I happen to teach which is why my avatar has children in it.
The first 3 years are a waste of time and we keep trying new ideas but people here are rather closed minded and so it just continues.
The Bishop had a meeting with us (catechists from the entire region) to explain how it has to change to be more interactive and less "school-like" but there's much resistence. One parish here (it's called AREA now) has a great youth minister and they're doing great.
Unfortunately, not every area has one and it's difficult for catechists to arrange everything unless they have a priest that is willing to cooperate.
Long story.

Color pictures of Jesus, etc. It's starting to come around, though. I belong to a large university parish and have taught CCD for many years. I'm really impressed by these young people and their expression of faith! College students! Great attendance at daily Mass, Adoration, events, etc. Church is packed during the school year (not so much the Summer because for whatever looney toon reason, they doubled the tuition during the Summar only).

Great to hear. Those that come back are genuine.
I've taught younger kids and I prefer that .... 4th - 5th grade; 9 to 12 years old.

I had an older class once - confirmation class - the kids are in 2nd middle school, about 13/14, I didn't like it at all.
The priest (a friend of mine) that I replaced was very happy to leave. Out of 16 kids, about 12 were atheists. I spent the first 2 weeks
discussing why God MUST necessarily exist. I asked what they thought created the universe and one kid replied: Science.
The time spent helped a couple of them but the rest remained atheist...and this after 6 years of catechism. I was disillusioned - my priest friend also felt the same. I think older kids should be taught by a strong male figure. But where are they?

I blame much of the problems the world is experiencing currently on the failure of the Catholic Church to do its job well. It actually does have the fullness of Christ's truths and all the Sacraments, etc., that Christ gave it that are necessary to create saints, but it has been very ineffective in doing what it should be doing. This is not new, though. Throughout all of the history of Christianity, there have been ebbs and flows in faith. Then, God steps in, shakes things up and provides what's needed to get back on track again, like any good Father.

I couldn't agree more.
I go back 40 years or more and remember all the liberal talk on TV about different subjects, and the church was never there to combat incorrect ideas. We're paying the price now.

And yes, I love the liturgies and the Sacramental Celebrations and feel that the Protestant churches really miss out on this for their children.
It could create beautiful memories if done correctly.

I used to take my kids to Adoration a couple of times per year, but with this priest it's not possible. He's retiring this September, so we'll see what the new one does. I don't know him.

God doesn't live in time, but in eternity. He sees all of creation from beginning to end. He isn't reactive. He knows exactly how everything will happen, when and how. He allows bad things to happen in order to bring about a greater good.
Yes. Well, this is how I feel.
But he's really split the church.
Nuff said.
 

Augustin56

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Sola Scriptura says: "But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him." - Hebrews 11:6

True.
The priest re hell made a big mistake and I don't still understand how the Bishop did not stop him or correct him.
I'd have stories to tell but they'd be too many.



Very true. They should, however, know more than we do.
But they also carry with them their own personal beliefs and life experiences.



Wow!



Jesus said He would send the Helper after He left.



Same here. I happen to teach which is why my avatar has children in it.
The first 3 years are a waste of time and we keep trying new ideas but people here are rather closed minded and so it just continues.
The Bishop had a meeting with us (catechists from the entire region) to explain how it has to change to be more interactive and less "school-like" but there's much resistence. One parish here (it's called AREA now) has a great youth minister and they're doing great.
Unfortunately, not every area has one and it's difficult for catechists to arrange everything unless they have a priest that is willing to cooperate.
Long story.



Great to hear. Those that come back are genuine.
I've taught younger kids and I prefer that .... 4th - 5th grade; 9 to 12 years old.

I had an older class once - confirmation class - the kids are in 2nd middle school, about 13/14, I didn't like it at all.
The priest (a friend of mine) that I replaced was very happy to leave. Out of 16 kids, about 12 were atheists. I spent the first 2 weeks
discussing why God MUST necessarily exist. I asked what they thought created the universe and one kid replied: Science.
The time spent helped a couple of them but the rest remained atheist...and this after 6 years of catechism. I was disillusioned - my priest friend also felt the same. I think older kids should be taught by a strong male figure. But where are they?



I couldn't agree more.
I go back 40 years or more and remember all the liberal talk on TV about different subjects, and the church was never there to combat incorrect ideas. We're paying the price now.

And yes, I love the liturgies and the Sacramental Celebrations and feel that the Protestant churches really miss out on this for their children.
It could create beautiful memories if done correctly.

I used to take my kids to Adoration a couple of times per year, but with this priest it's not possible. He's retiring this September, so we'll see what the new one does. I don't know him.


Yes. Well, this is how I feel.
But he's really split the church.
Nuff said.
Have you noticed a certain indocility within our culture that has crept into the younger generations? They aren't open to being taught, guided, or led by someone older and wiser than them, for the most part. Now, this can be overcome, but it just takes so much more effort than it used to.
 

GodsGrace

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Have you noticed a certain indocility within our culture that has crept into the younger generations? They aren't open to being taught, guided, or led by someone older and wiser than them, for the most part. Now, this can be overcome, but it just takes so much more effort than it used to.
Yes!
Who has the energy? Maybe it's time to quit.
I'll stick to the younger ones.
Cell phones have made a big difference.
How about teaching Genesis Nel Principio....
and you call it the forbidden fruit and one kid says it was an apple.
I made them look it up on Google.
They trust Google.
Most disheartening.... :(

One kid, years ago, actually told me the young know more.
Asked why.....he said they know computers and older folk don't.
Well !
I've been working with computers since 1986.....
We had a nice talk.

I think kids today just grow up...
they're not being raised?
 

David in NJ

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Have you noticed a certain indocility within our culture that has crept into the younger generations? They aren't open to being taught, guided, or led by someone older and wiser than them, for the most part. Now, this can be overcome, but it just takes so much more effort than it used to.
Augustin56 and the Pharisees say: Have you noticed a certain indocility within our culture that has crept into the younger generations?
"They(Jesus and His Disciples) aren't open to being taught, guided, or led by someone older and wiser than them, for the most part.

"And it came to pass, on the next day, that their rulers, elders, and scribes, as well as Annas the high priest, Caiaphas, John, and Alexander, and as many as were of the family of the high priest, were gathered together at Jerusalem...........
"Now when they(Pharisees/Elders) saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated and untrained men, they marveled." - Acts ch4
 
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David in NJ

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David,
Can you explain what sola scriptura means to you?
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
 
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GodsGrace

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In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
Well, you might mean that JESUS is the Word of God.
This means that we should read Jesus words (those in red) and learn from Him
and obey Him.

I agree 100%

Unfortunately that is not the working definition of sola scriptura...
although, it should be.
 
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amigo de christo

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What is the "eisegesis" truth that Jesus used when He said:
"These words I speak to you, they are Spirit and they are Life" = John 6:63
Why do you call me LORD , LORD
and yet DO NOT the things which i say . OH you are onto something my dear friend .
The words that i speak unto you they are spirit and they are life .
The words of TRUTH are our meat my friend . The problem is many dont like that meat
and rather had eat the mcdonalds of twisted doctrines of men .
As the natural bad diet of a man can lead to his early death
So too can the doctrines of men gone wrong lead to , THE SECOND death .
Its time we get in those bibles my friend . Keep on marching on in the LORD my friend .
 
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amigo de christo

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David,
Can you explain what sola scriptura means to you?
It means get in the bible and learn and love that doctrine and you test every creature that speaks against that doctrine .
If it in any way contradicts the truth , YA dont heed it .
Now if we do get into the bible , the apostels also left us a whole lot of truth to learn .
A pattern that would keep the church safe , healthy and thriving .
I suggest we do not stray one bit from that pattern . All who have done so
have caused their own downfall .
This do include everything , such as CORRECTION , exposing sins too and yes
even not eating with such who are in sin and wont repent of the sin .
It includes everything . The apostels , well I KNOW THEY KNEW JESUS the CHRIST
and I KNOW also how serious JESUS HIMSELF was about the dire need to BELEIVE ON HIM
and what would occur to those who refused to believe on HIM as the CHRIST .
You see the more we learn that pattern i am telling us the more we stay refreshed in scriptures
We gonna see these sold out hirelings have been leading us into a senusal false love
direction that the longer they stay in it
the more accepting of sins , tolerance of sins , overlooking of sins
and THE MORE LEAVEN , left uncorrected , FILLS the places up .
NOW they gonna holler love a lot . okay . lets get that fact straight fast .
THEY do holler love almost non stop . But man it seemth the love they have
Puts humanity FIRST and man it sure do hate on it some bible truth .
IN other words this other love stuff
which intially entered in under the judge not campaign and the its not our job to correct sin idea .
BOY HOWDY did it lead to leaven flooding in . But had folks known
what was recorded in the bible
they would have seen why paul rebuked a church that was allowing one in sin to remain .
DONT YA KNOW a little leaven leavens the lump up . IT DO . it really DO and it HAS . our churches
holler love and unity non stop , tolerance and judge not non stop
and arm joins in arm , hand in hand with UNREPETANT sinners
and soon enough the sin actually becomes seen as okay .
AND all the while these judge not , God is love , WELL THEY SURE DO SEEM
to JUDGE THE HECK out of BIBLE DOCTRINE and THOSE WHO BRING IT . NOT TOO TOLERANT TOWARDS THOSE my friend .
You see one cannot have the love of the world and the LOVE OF GOD . its a delusion , dont exist .
The love of the world hardens a heart big time against the truth of GOD . i seen it far too much my friend .
Its kinda like the money lover who cliams OH I LOVE GOD . right , YOU CANT LOVE BOTH . its really the money .
 
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amigo de christo

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Augustin56 and the Pharisees say: Have you noticed a certain indocility within our culture that has crept into the younger generations?
"They(Jesus and His Disciples) aren't open to being taught, guided, or led by someone older and wiser than them, for the most part.

"And it came to pass, on the next day, that their rulers, elders, and scribes, as well as Annas the high priest, Caiaphas, John, and Alexander, and as many as were of the family of the high priest, were gathered together at Jerusalem...........
"Now when they(Pharisees/Elders) saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated and untrained men, they marveled." - Acts ch4
The real problem that is and has been going on
is that many of the elders and the young
They are subject to listening to anyone they church approves of to speak to said congregation .
And they will heed every word of their pastor , every word of the guest speaker
or even the who knows what .
But what they wont heed is BIBLICAL DOCTRINE . and then expect us to sit under them . NO SIR and i make zero
apologies for not sitting under them men . I mean ZERO aplogy .
In fact they need to kneel down and APOLOGIZE . not to me . TO GOD AND HIS CHRIST
for the decades and many years they have REBLLED against HIM and taught rebellion to their churches .
They need to go to every house and aplogize for misleading this people .
And they need to go and sit down and open the bible for themselves and start learning .
 
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