The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[rebuilder 454]

Douggg and all the believers in the 'rapture to heaven' theory, have to have the Jewish nation on earth, while they do harp practise in heaven. Their belief is a fable and they simply seem to be unable to understand the many Prophesies which say how Jewish Israel will be virtually destroyed and only a Christian remnant saved. Isaiah 22:14 tells it plainly.

...and see where I totally blew your doctrine apart.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I may have already commented on the above, I don't know... but...

John 14 where Lord Jesus tells His disciples that He goes to prepare a place for them, so they can be where He is, for in The Father's house are "many mansions"... is about God's HOUSE written of in the Ezekiel 40 through 47 chapters.

The Greek for "mansions" in John 14 means 'abodes', i.e., the chambers for the priests written of in those Ezekiel chapters.

Where will God's House be for Christ's future Millennial reign? UPON THIS EARTH. The Ezekiel 47 chapter even reveals its location in the middle east, naming 2 specific locations there. And it mentions the return of God's River and the Tree of Life with God's House in that future time.

Thus the Pre-trib idea that Jesus meant He is preparing a place for us up in Heaven once we are raptured to Him, is a MYTH created by men's false Pre-trib doctrines that first were taught in a Christian Church in 1830's Great Britain by Edward Irving and John Nelson Darby. Prior to that, for over 1,800 years, the Christian Church held to a Post-tribulational coming by Christ and gathering of His Church.

It literally translates "mansions".
kjv got it correct
JESUS is in heaven, building mansions for His bride.
Pretrib rapture big time.
All others waiting for the AC will hide and watch the groom fetch the bride.

They have an appointment with beheading, or take the mark to save their hides.
But the Bible says " all take the mark"...or die.
No postrib rapture at all.

 

[rebuilder 454]

It literally translates "mansions".
kjv got it correct
JESUS is in heaven, building mansions for His bride.
Pretrib rapture big time.
All others waiting for the AC will hide and watch the groom fetch the bride.

They have an appointment with beheading, or take the mark to save their hides.
But the Bible says " all take the mark"...or die.
No postrib rapture at all.

Sorry 'bout Dat.
But If ya'll want to change God's Holy Word...go ahead.

 

[WPM]

No verses

No thoughtful debate.
Carry on sir

How about actually starting with the Op and addressing it? You have ducked around it for long enough.

 

[WPM]

...and see where I totally blew your doctrine apart.

It seems like you think if you repeat that falsehood enough on here it will somehow suddenly become true. Not so!

 

[CadyandZoe]

Woah...exactly backwards!
Heb 11
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

We understand this verse from within the context. Before making that statement, he said, "one must believe that God exists and he is the rewarder of those who seek him." So, we see that Faith is accepting the truth about God.

That does not mean because you don't understand it that it's not true.

If I make a truth claim and you don't understand what I am saying, then how can you know whether to believe me or not? You need to understand what I said to accept it or reject it. Yes?

God is a spirit, and faith bypasses the psyche.

God does not bypass anything. The Bible was written in normal human language, which anyone can read. If there is a lack of understanding, it comes from being unfamiliar with the overall context.

Faith involves Trust.

Faith and trust are associated concepts. But faith is NOT trust. Faith is believing what is true.

Faith is blind obedience

No, no, no. God does not expect blind obedience.

 

[Timtofly]

Never has he (or I or anyone who believes like us) said that we experience God's wrath on us. If any of God's wrath occurs before the day Christ returns to take vengeance on His enemies (2 Thess 1:7-10), then God would certainly protect us from that while we are on the earth. Surely, He is quite capable of doing that.

Only those beheaded escape the wrath of God, which happens while the 2 witnesses are laying dead in Jerusalem for 3.5 days, just prior to Armageddon. So either you have the mark, don't have a head any more, or lying dead in Jerusalem. There is no 4th option found, other than the church removed prior to the first Trumpet.

God can protect us by taking us out of harm, as well, before it happens.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No verses

No thoughtful debate.
Carry on sir

LOL. What a hypocritical statement. He is the one who started this thread with many verses that refute your beliefs and you've done nothing but babble endlessly in response without proving anything using scripture yourself.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

2 Corinthians 5:6
Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

This is talking about our souls going to heaven when we physically die. How does this prove pretrib?

Matt 25
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh
Not only is the bride raptured, but is taken to HEAVEN , THE DOOR IS SHUT ,and the marriage and the feast is in heaven!

Whoa there, buddy! You are making scripture say what you want it to say once again. You should never do that!

Nowhere does that say that the bridegroom takes the wise virgins with Him form where He came from. Scripture says we will meet the Lord "in the air" when He comes and NEVER says He turns around and takes us to heaven afterwards. Why wouldn't we just meet Him in heaven if that was where we were going? Pretrib has no answer for that.

Pretrib also ignores the other scriptures which show what will happen to those who say "Lord, Lord" when He comes.

Luke 13:23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, 24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

This passage shows when people like the foolish virgins are saying "Lord, Lord, open unto us" they will be cast out to the place where "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth". Not cast out to face an imaginary Antichrist during an imaginary tribulation that takes place after the rapture. Cast out to the place where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. Where is that?

Matthew 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Unbelievers will be cast into the furnace of fire, otherwise known as "the lake of fire" (Rev 20:15) or "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels (Matt 25:41), where "there shall wailing and gnashing of teeth" when Jesus comes to take His people to Himself. Pretribs don't see that on the same day as the rapture Jesus will destroy His enemies.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

.....as declared a second time here;
Rev 19
And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
(huh???? People in heaven????)

Are you somehow not aware that the souls of the dead in Christ are in heaven right now? And that they are conscious there?

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

The Bride has become the wife in heaven, and the marriage supper is in heaven

You blatantly twist scripture to fit your view. That does not say the marriage supper is in heaven. It says His wife has made herself ready for the marriage, not that the marriage has taken place yet.

Your doctrine OMITS.
OMISSION.
BLATANT OMISSION.

Your doctrine TWISTS and CHANGES and BUTCHERS scripture.

AHEM...BEFORE THE WHITE HORSES DESCEND, WTH THE SAINTS , ALREADY IN HEAVEN, TO EARTH.

Do you believe in soul sleep or something? He will come with the souls of the dead in Christ and they will unite with their resurrected, changed bodies at that time (1 Thess 4:14-17, 1 Cor 15:22-23;50-54).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It seems like you think if you repeat that falsehood enough on here it will somehow suddenly become true. Not so!

No kidding! He just makes a bunch of baseless claims and declares himself the victor. The next time he actually exegetes scripture will be the first time. What a joke.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It literally translates "mansions".
kjv got it correct
JESUS is in heaven, building mansions for His bride.
Pretrib rapture big time.
All others waiting for the AC will hide and watch the groom fetch the bride.

They have an appointment with beheading, or take the mark to save their hides.
But the Bible says " all take the mark"...or die.
No postrib rapture at all.

LOL. We're meeting Him "in the air", not in heaven. He's bringing heaven to us. If we were going to heaven at that time, there would be no point in meeting Him in the air. Pretrib doesn't even think about such things because logic and reason are not things that matter to pretrib.

 

[rebuilder 454]

We understand this verse from within the context. Before making that statement, he said, "one must believe that God exists and he is the rewarder of those who seek him." So, we see that Faith is accepting the truth about God.

If I make a truth claim and you don't understand what I am saying, then how can you know whether to believe me or not? You need to understand what I said to accept it or reject it. Yes?


God does not bypass anything. The Bible was written in normal human language, which anyone can read. If there is a lack of understanding, it comes from being unfamiliar with the overall context.

Faith and trust are associated concepts. But faith is NOT trust. Faith is believing what is true.

No, no, no. God does not expect blind obedience.

Quote
""No, no, no. God does not expect blind obedience""
Then you do not trust Him.
You "process and choose to obey"

 

[CadyandZoe]

Quote
""No, no, no. God does not expect blind obedience""
Then you do not trust Him.
You "process and choose to obey"

I trust him because he has proven himself trustworthy.

 

[rebuilder 454]

We understand this verse from within the context. Before making that statement, he said, "one must believe that God exists and he is the rewarder of those who seek him." So, we see that Faith is accepting the truth about God.

If I make a truth claim and you don't understand what I am saying, then how can you know whether to believe me or not? You need to understand what I said to accept it or reject it. Yes?


God does not bypass anything. The Bible was written in normal human language, which anyone can read. If there is a lack of understanding, it comes from being unfamiliar with the overall context.

Faith and trust are associated concepts. But faith is NOT trust. Faith is believing what is true.

No, no, no. God does not expect blind obedience.

Your answer to heb 8 changes nothing about that verse;
Quote
"We understand this verse from within the context. Before making that statement, he said, "one must believe that God exists and he is the rewarder of those who seek him." So, we see that Faith is accepting the truth about God."
Heb 11:8
Says faith is beyond understanding.
You say no.
I will go by the Bible.
I SOLIDLY PROVED you are wrong.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I trust him because he has proven himself trustworthy.

Me too!

 

[rebuilder 454]

This is talking about our souls going to heaven when we physically die. How does this prove pretrib?


Whoa there, buddy! You are making scripture say what you want it to say once again. You should never do that!

Nowhere does that say that the bridegroom takes the wise virgins with Him form where He came from. Scripture says we will meet the Lord "in the air" when He comes and NEVER says He turns around and takes us to heaven afterwards. Why wouldn't we just meet Him in heaven if that was where we were going? Pretrib has no answer for that.

Pretrib also ignores the other scriptures which show what will happen to those who say "Lord, Lord" when He comes.

Luke 13:23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, 24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

This passage shows when people like the foolish virgins are saying "Lord, Lord, open unto us" they will be cast out to the place where "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth". Not cast out to face an imaginary Antichrist during an imaginary tribulation that takes place after the rapture. Cast out to the place where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. Where is that?

Matthew 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Unbelievers will be cast into the furnace of fire, otherwise known as "the lake of fire" (Rev 20:15) or "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels (Matt 25:41), where "there shall wailing and gnashing of teeth" when Jesus comes to take His people to Himself. Pretribs don't see that on the same day as the rapture Jesus will destroy His enemies.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.



Are you somehow not aware that the souls of the dead in Christ are in heaven right now? And that they are conscious there?

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


You blatantly twist scripture to fit your view. That does not say the marriage supper is in heaven. It says His wife has made herself ready for the marriage, not that the marriage has taken place yet.


Your doctrine TWISTS and CHANGES and BUTCHERS scripture.


Do you believe in soul sleep or something? He will come with the souls of the dead in Christ and they will unite with their resurrected, changed bodies at that time (1 Thess 4:14-17, 1 Cor 15:22-23;50-54).

Lol
Pure lies.
Pituful

 

[rebuilder 454]

LOL. What a hypocritical statement. He is the one who started this thread with many verses that refute your beliefs and you've done nothing but babble endlessly in response without proving anything using scripture yourself.

Pot<> kettle.
Calm down and get a bible

 

[MA2444]

Pot<> kettle.
Calm down and get a bible

I second the Motion!

 

[rebuilder 454]

We understand this verse from within the context. Before making that statement, he said, "one must believe that God exists and he is the rewarder of those who seek him." So, we see that Faith is accepting the truth about God.

If I make a truth claim and you don't understand what I am saying, then how can you know whether to believe me or not? You need to understand what I said to accept it or reject it. Yes?


God does not bypass anything. The Bible was written in normal human language, which anyone can read. If there is a lack of understanding, it comes from being unfamiliar with the overall context.

Faith and trust are associated concepts. But faith is NOT trust. Faith is believing what is true.

No, no, no. God does not expect blind obedience.

QUOTE
"God does not bypass anything. The Bible was written in normal human language, which anyone can read. If there is a lack of understanding, it comes from being unfamiliar with the overall context."
Heb 11 says way different;
11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Ahem, if you read the story, they both wavered in NOT TRUSTING GOD.(faith wavered)
They failed in faith (trust), both of them.
We see a "reprieve" in heb 11, where the HS, does not leave them in condemnation, but applies faith to them both.
We serve a beautiful God.

 

[MA2444]

Quote
""No, no, no. God does not expect blind obedience""
Then you do not trust Him.
You "process and choose to obey"

Amen Brother. God does ask for blind obedience all through scripture. It's all about faith and trusting Him. We may not understand it, but we trust him enough to obey Him.

How about Abraham? God told him that he would be the father of many nations and his children would number more than sand of the seashore...except Abraham was past the age of fathering children! He didnt understand that one for sure! But Abraham believed God and obeyed him. (poor Sarah, lol)

and then, after they had the child, God told Abraham to go kill the child. Do you think he understood that? How could he be the father of many nations if he kills the child that they would come from? But Abraham trusted God and chose to believe Him. He processed it and chose to obey God even if he had no clue how God would do it or what God was doing. Abraham might of thought that God would raise Issac from the dead or something? So largely speaking...Abraham obeyed God blindly because he chose to obey him.