The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[CadyandZoe]

You are demonstrating why theologians can not unpack the deity of Jesus..
You also demonstrate that rejecting that deity, YOU MUST MODIFY THE BIBLE.
That is what you are demonstrating

If that is true, then I misspoke.

Using your logic , I would be inclined to reject the detractors, not the ones that have their Bibles opened.

Not sure what you mean here.

 

[rebuilder 454]

If that is true, then I misspoke.

Not sure what you mean here.

I don't understand everything concerning God's word.
Neither did Abraham. Or the apostles.
Nobody did or does.
That is where faith is invoked.
Or just plain obedience and "echoing" what the word of God says back to Him.

If you disagree with the Bible, that is your choice, and mental, disagreement in "understanding" , (that is not understanding at all.)

 

[Davy]

John 14:

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Jesus at His Second Coming to stand upon this earth will not be bringing those mansions with Him. The place He prepares is in heaven and that is where the rapture/resurrected saints will be taken.

It might be pre-70th week or it might not. But it has to be before the Day of the Lord begins, when God's wrath is poured out. Anytime between now and then.

I may have already commented on the above, I don't know... but...

John 14 where Lord Jesus tells His disciples that He goes to prepare a place for them, so they can be where He is, for in The Father's house are "many mansions"... is about God's HOUSE written of in the Ezekiel 40 through 47 chapters.

The Greek for "mansions" in John 14 means 'abodes', i.e., the chambers for the priests written of in those Ezekiel chapters.

Where will God's House be for Christ's future Millennial reign? UPON THIS EARTH. The Ezekiel 47 chapter even reveals its location in the middle east, naming 2 specific locations there. And it mentions the return of God's River and the Tree of Life with God's House in that future time.

Thus the Pre-trib idea that Jesus meant He is preparing a place for us up in Heaven once we are raptured to Him, is a MYTH created by men's false Pre-trib doctrines that first were taught in a Christian Church in 1830's Great Britain by Edward Irving and John Nelson Darby. Prior to that, for over 1,800 years, the Christian Church held to a Post-tribulational coming by Christ and gathering of His Church.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I don't understand everything concerning God's word.
Neither did Abraham. Or the apostles.
Nobody did or does.
That is where faith is invoked.
Or just plain obedience and "echoing" what the word of God says back to Him.

If you disagree with the Bible, that is your choice, and mental, disagreement in "understanding" , (that is not understanding at all.)

I disagree with your view of faith. Faith is not a replacement for understanding. Faith is not another means of knowledge. Faith is not belief in the absence of evidence.

And if I can't understand something, then it isn't true.

 

[Douggg]

Where will God's House be for Christ's future Millennial reign? UPON THIS EARTH. The Ezekiel 47 chapter even reveals its location in the middle east, naming 2 specific locations there. And it mentions the return of God's River and the Tree of Life with God's House in that future time.

Thus the Pre-trib idea that Jesus meant He is preparing a place for us up in Heaven once we are raptured to Him, is a MYTH created by men's false Pre-trib doctrines that first were taught in a Christian Church in 1830's Great Britain by Edward Irving and John Nelson Darby. Prior to that, for over 1,800 years, the Christian Church held to a Post-tribulational coming by Christ and gathering of His Church.

Davy, there are over a billion Christians. Fitting them all into the middle east for the millennial rule is physically not possible. Nor would it be desirable.

All around the world, would be a more rationale understanding.

-------------------------------------------------

regarding the history of the pre-trib rapture view, I personally have not done any research on that issue. I just did a google search on the pre-trib history - and this one site (pre-trib) seems to show evidence that the view preceded 1830's Darby claim that post-trib often claims.

A Brief History of the Rapture - by Thomas Ice - The Pre-Trib Research Center

One of the most often cited objections to pretribulationism is that it is a new teaching in church history having only come on the scene in the 1830s. It is often argued that if the pre-trib rapture were biblical then it would have been taught earlier and throughout church history. In the last...

www.pre-trib.org

Personally, I would say study the bible and determine for yourself which rapture view you think is correct.

I personally am "anytime rapture view", a view I came up with because of the possibility that the rapture may not happen until the 7 year 70th week begins. Yet my view retains the possibility that the rapture could happen today.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I disagree with your view of faith. Faith is not a replacement for understanding. Faith is not another means of knowledge. Faith is not belief in the absence of evidence.

And if I can't understand something, then it isn't true.

I disagree with your view of faith. Faith is not a replacement for understanding. Faith is not another means of knowledge. Faith is not belief in the absence of evidence.

And if I can't understand something, then it isn't true.

Woah...exactly backwards!
Heb 11
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

The thief on the cross had zero understanding about Jesus telling him he would be in Paradise with him that day.
That does not mean because you don't understand it that it's not true.
Peter didn't understand the full revelation of Jesus and made several blunders out of that lack of understanding, but that has no bearing whatsoever on whether it's true or not.
God is a spirit, and faith bypasses the psyche.
Faith involves Trust. Faith is blind obedience ,where I obey and have no understanding ,and yet I obey anyway.
When I learned how to dive my father held his arm up and told me to dive over his arm head first into the water. I was too afraid and I couldn't do it because in my understanding even though the water was not a hard object, I could not understand the concept of not getting hurt going head first into anything.
IOW I LACKED FAITH IN MY DADS COMMAND.
Finally he hollered at me and ordered me to jump and I did so out of fear and obedience. Now after that I had faith that the water was not going to hurt me. So understanding came later.

Abraham was promised a son through Sarah. Sarah laughed because she did not understand that God could possibly cause her dead and Barren womb to produce a child. Abraham wavered because he did not understand either how God could use him and his wife in such a old age to Bear any children. Both erred in trying to understand. So they both concocted a plan with their understanding, and Abraham had a child through Sarah's maid Hagar.
I hope this sheds a little light on how understanding, and the mind are actual enemies of faith.

 

[WPM]

You are demonstrating why theologians can not unpack the deity of Jesus..
You also demonstrate that rejecting that deity, YOU MUST MODIFY THE BIBLE.
That is what you are demonstrating


It is somewhat understood.
Suppose a man let's his son die in place of a mass murderer.( As illustrated in the trinity) You will never process that in a
Psychological rabbit trail, because love does "foolish" things.
Imagine a God that puts his Son through torture and death, for criminals and heathens that hate Him.
It is called irrational.
It is not common sense.
God is not in anyone's psychological box.
That is an insult to the author of the Bible, to put him in a human box of misunderstanding.
It reminds me of those pointing to Noah and mocking his lack of knowledge and "understanding". Ok trust your understanding. They will definately "understand" eventually...kinda like those denying Jesus.
The bible stands in truth.
Not human understanding.
Faith is not faith in the parameters of the psyche.
Heb 11 is full of people that were not in your common sense realm.

The deity of Jesus debate is based off of several verses.( the foundation of Jesus deiety)
Those opposing it, actually shy from the very foundation of the debate.
Using your logic , I would be inclined to reject the detractors, not the ones that have their Bibles opened.

Please take this subject elsewhere. It is off topic.

 

[WPM]

Davy, there are over a billion Christians. Fitting them all into the middle east for the millennial rule is physically not possible. Nor would it be desirable.

Statements like this tell the rest of us that it is not just your eschatology that is off, it is your awareness of what a Christian really is. Remember many on that day will cry "Lord, Lord," but will be powerfully exposed. Few there is that make it.

 

[Douggg]

Statements like this tell the rest of us that it is not just your eschatology that is off, it is your awareness of what a Christian really is. Remember many on that day will cry "Lord, Lord," but will be powerfully exposed. Few there is that make it.

I think you need to read Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

 

[Keraz]

I think you need to read Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Isaiah 66:18b-21 tells us who and where they are.
They are the Lords faithful peoples, those who remain after the just happened Sixth Seal; Isaiah 66:15-17
They gather and live in all of the holy Land. Isaiah 66:20a, Isaiah 62:1-5, Ezekiel 34_11-16
They will build a new Temple and will make offerings to God in it. Isaiah 66:29b, Isaiah 56:7, Ezekiel 20:40-41

 

[Douggg]

Isaiah 66:18b-21 tells us who and where they are.
They are the Lords faithful peoples, those who remain after the just happened Sixth Seal; Isaiah 66:15-17
They gather and live in all of the holy Land. Isaiah 66:20a, Isaiah 62:1-5, Ezekiel 34_11-16
They will build a new Temple and will make offerings to God in it. Isaiah 66:29b, Isaiah 56:7, Ezekiel 20:40-41

Revelation 7:13-17, one of the elders there in heaven with John, said who the great multitude are. And the great multitude John sees are in heaven where God's throne is.

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

 

[Davy]

Davy, there are over a billion Christians. Fitting them all into the middle east for the millennial rule is physically not possible. Nor would it be desirable.

You don't understand the power of God, nor what His Word reveals about just who will reign with Jesus when He returns to this earth, as written. You pump up big charts and stories trying to act like you've studied God's written Word on this matter, but your own words betray you.

There will be many within Christ's Church that will NOT reign with Jesus over the nations when He returns. Why? Because they will be deceived, like those on the false pre-trib rapture theory, OR "ANY MOMENT" doctrine (same thing).

God's Word uses strong... metaphors of warning for the believer on Christ Jesus like Apostle Paul's idea of being presented to Jesus as "a chaste virgin" who waits on Jesus to come. Pre-tribbers will not wait, but will flee to the 1st supernatural messiah that shows up, which will NOT be our Lord Jesus Christ. And Jesus and Paul specifically warned us about that coming false Messiah that will play God (Matt.24; Mark 13; 2 Thess.2:3-4).

regarding the history of the pre-trib rapture view, I personally have not done any research on that issue.

Sorry, but I don't care if you refuse to 'admit' that what you are following is the Pre-trib Rapture theory from men. Your own words betray that you do... follow it, even in the charts you make. So let's not talk falsely now.

 

[WPM]

I think you need to read Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Yes, from the beginning. But you made every professor on this earth a Christian in your estimation. Not smart.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Please take this subject elsewhere. It is off topic.

But note the civil back and forth. The thoughtful discussion.
So yes, without the amil nastiness and zero thoughtful discussion...it is totally out of place.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You don't understand the power of God, nor what His Word reveals about just who will reign with Jesus when He returns to this earth, as written. You pump up big charts and stories trying to act like you've studied God's written Word on this matter, but your own words betray you.

There will be many within Christ's Church that will NOT reign with Jesus over the nations when He returns. Why? Because they will be deceived, like those on the false pre-trib rapture theory, OR "ANY MOMENT" doctrine (same thing).

God's Word uses strong... metaphors of warning for the believer on Christ Jesus like Apostle Paul's idea of being presented to Jesus as "a chaste virgin" who waits on Jesus to come. Pre-tribbers will not wait, but will flee to the 1st supernatural messiah that shows up, which will NOT be our Lord Jesus Christ. And Jesus and Paul specifically warned us about that coming false Messiah that will play God (Matt.24; Mark 13; 2 Thess.2:3-4).



Sorry, but I don't care if you refuse to 'admit' that what you are following is the Pre-trib Rapture theory from men. Your own words betray that you do... follow it, even in the charts you make. So let's not talk falsely now.

SMH.
poppycock.
Lies..pure lies.
Multiple verses make up the ptretrib doctrine.
So everytime you lie, your assignment is to stand in front of s mirror and tell yourself; "I lie about pretribbers and I have done so,so often I now can not tell the truth"

Please stop lying.
Admit the truth.
We have presented many,many verses and have stuck your nose in it.
Again ...please stop lying.
All you are demonstrating is that you can not debate HONESTLY, and thumb your nose at scripture.
How can you continue in such deceit????????

 

[Douggg]

Sorry, but I don't care if you refuse to 'admit' that what you are following is the Pre-trib Rapture theory from men. Your own words betray that you do... follow it, even in the charts you make. So let's not talk falsely now.

A pre-trib chart does not have the rapture taking place after the 7 year 70th week begins.

Differently, my Anytime Rapture View chart has that possibility that the rapture may not take place until after the 7 year 70th week begins.

 

[WPM]

SMH.
poppycock.
Lies..pure lies.
Multiple verses make up the ptretrib doctrine.
So everytime you lie, your assignment is to stand in front of s mirror and tell yourself; "I lie about pretribbers and I have done so,so often I now can not tell the truth"

Please stop lying.
Admit the truth.
We have presented many,many verses and have stuck your nose in it.
Again ...please stop lying.
All you are demonstrating is that you can not debate HONESTLY, and thumb your nose at scripture.
How can you continue in such deceit????????

Listen to the way you talk! And then you talk about "amil nastiness and zero thoughtful discussion." You are a master of PROJECTION. You continually describe yourself in your usual false charges and evasive replies.

Grow up and start bringing Scripture to the table, if you can.

 

[Keraz]

Multiple verses make up the ptretrib doctrine.

my Anytime Rapture View

Lets get serious about this false and totally unbiblical theory of the Lord taking His people to live in heaven.
How can it be possible before any kind of testing, or Judgment?
But it directly opposes the Words of Jesus:
Jesus said:
1/ John 3:13 No one has gone up into heaven, except the One who came down from heaven, the Son of Man.
Jesus is talking about the things of heaven, truths that apply forever.

2/ Revelation 2-3 Those who are victorious over Satan and who persevere until the end, will receive the crown of Life.
They are the people seen in Revelation 6:9-14. On earth, as proved by the first 3 verses of Revelation 7.

3/ John 7:33-34…I am going away to Him who sent Me and where I go, you cannot come.
A plain statement that also applies forever.

4/ John 8:21-23 Again He said: Where I go, you cannot come. You belong to this world below, I to the world above….
Our home is the earth, we are earth people and not spirits and even after the Millennium, those worthy will become immortal, but will still remain on earth. Revelation 21:1-4

5/ John 17:15 I do not pray that You take My people out of this world, but to keep them from the evil one.
Jesus was talking to God and what He asked applies to all Christians. Remember: we pray for God’s Kingdom to come on earth as it is in heaven and it will, with the New Jerusalem.

6/ Revelation 5:10 You have made them priests for our God and they shall reign on earth.
This refers to every faithful Christian, people from every tribe, race, nation and language, they shall reign on earth. That is our destiny, we never go to heaven, only our souls sleep under the Altar, if we are martyred. Revelation 6:9-11
That they cry out at times, does not mean they are consciously living in heaven.

A 'rapture to heaven', is absurd; it contradicts what we are told to do in the end times: to stand firm in our faith and to endure until the end.
Just because most people have fallen for the rapture lie, does not gave it any legitimacy.

God does have a Plan for His faithful people. It is on earth, the place we were made to live in and only astronauts can leave it. [temporarily]

 

[rebuilder 454]

Listen to the way you talk! And then you talk about "amil nastiness and zero thoughtful discussion." You are a master of PROJECTION. You continually describe yourself in your usual false charges and evasive replies.

Grow up and start bringing Scripture to the table, if you can.

No verses

No thoughtful debate.
Carry on sir

 

[rebuilder 454]

Lets get serious about this false and totally unbiblical theory of the Lord taking His people to live in heaven.
How can it be possible before any kind of testing, or Judgment?
But it directly opposes the Words of Jesus:
Jesus said:
1/ John 3:13 No one has gone up into heaven, except the One who came down from heaven, the Son of Man.
Jesus is talking about the things of heaven, truths that apply forever.

2/ Revelation 2-3 Those who are victorious over Satan and who persevere until the end, will receive the crown of Life.
They are the people seen in Revelation 6:9-14. On earth, as proved by the first 3 verses of Revelation 7.

3/ John 7:33-34…I am going away to Him who sent Me and where I go, you cannot come.
A plain statement that also applies forever.

4/ John 8:21-23 Again He said: Where I go, you cannot come. You belong to this world below, I to the world above….
Our home is the earth, we are earth people and not spirits and even after the Millennium, those worthy will become immortal, but will still remain on earth. Revelation 21:1-4

5/ John 17:15 I do not pray that You take My people out of this world, but to keep them from the evil one.
Jesus was talking to God and what He asked applies to all Christians. Remember: we pray for God’s Kingdom to come on earth as it is in heaven and it will, with the New Jerusalem.

6/ Revelation 5:10 You have made them priests for our God and they shall reign on earth.
This refers to every faithful Christian, people from every tribe, race, nation and language, they shall reign on earth. That is our destiny, we never go to heaven, only our souls sleep under the Altar, if we are martyred. Revelation 6:9-11
That they cry out at times, does not mean they are consciously living in heaven.

A 'rapture to heaven', is absurd; it contradicts what we are told to do in the end times: to stand firm in our faith and to endure until the end.
Just because most people have fallen for the rapture lie, does not gave it any legitimacy.

God does have a Plan for His faithful people. It is on earth, the place we were made to live in and only astronauts can leave it. [temporarily]

Lets get serious about this false and totally unbiblical theory of the Lord taking His people to live in heaven.
How can it be possible before any kind of testing, or Judgment?
But it directly opposes the Words of Jesus:
Jesus said:
1/ John 3:13 No one has gone up into heaven, except the One who came down from heaven, the Son of Man.
Jesus is talking about the things of heaven, truths that apply forever.

2/ Revelation 2-3 Those who are victorious over Satan and who persevere until the end, will receive the crown of Life.
They are the people seen in Revelation 6:9-14. On earth, as proved by the first 3 verses of Revelation 7.

3/ John 7:33-34…I am going away to Him who sent Me and where I go, you cannot come.
A plain statement that also applies forever.

4/ John 8:21-23 Again He said: Where I go, you cannot come. You belong to this world below, I to the world above….
Our home is the earth, we are earth people and not spirits and even after the Millennium, those worthy will become immortal, but will still remain on earth. Revelation 21:1-4

5/ John 17:15 I do not pray that You take My people out of this world, but to keep them from the evil one.
Jesus was talking to God and what He asked applies to all Christians. Remember: we pray for God’s Kingdom to come on earth as it is in heaven and it will, with the New Jerusalem.

6/ Revelation 5:10 You have made them priests for our God and they shall reign on earth.
This refers to every faithful Christian, people from every tribe, race, nation and language, they shall reign on earth. That is our destiny, we never go to heaven, only our souls sleep under the Altar, if we are martyred. Revelation 6:9-11
That they cry out at times, does not mean they are consciously living in heaven.

A 'rapture to heaven', is absurd; it contradicts what we are told to do in the end times: to stand firm in our faith and to endure until the end.
Just because most people have fallen for the rapture lie, does not gave it any legitimacy.

God does have a Plan for His faithful people. It is on earth, the place we were made to live in and only astronauts can leave it. [temporarily]

Let's get serious.
Elijah and Enoch alone make your out of context verses completely misplaced
Let alone the 144k in Rev 14 before the throne in heaven are 144,000 testimonies forcing you to go against the bible.

Concerning the disciples not allowed to go to heaven in their earthly bodies reminds me of when my 3 yr old son not allowed to hunting with me when he asked, and then telling him "where I am going you can't come, and that is forever"..woah...ridiculous totally bizarre!
SMH. Hard to believe you actually reframed God's Holy Word to attempt to shore up a weak doctrine.

Jn 14
14 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also..
Yes Lord.
Honor your word and take us to heaven as you declared.

Matt 26
29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom
...which is where He went.

2 Corinthians 5:6
Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

Matt 25
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh
Not only is the bride raptured, but is taken to HEAVEN , THE DOOR IS SHUT ,and the marriage and the feast is in heaven!

.....as declared a second time here;
Rev 19
And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
(huh???? People in heaven????)

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

The Bride has become the wife in heaven, and the marriage supper is in heaven

Your doctrine OMITS.
OMISSION.
BLATANT OMISSION.

AHEM...BEFORE THE WHITE HORSES DESCEND, WTH THE SAINTS , ALREADY IN HEAVEN, TO EARTH.