The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[CadyandZoe]

Your answer to heb 8 changes nothing about that verse;
Quote
"We understand this verse from within the context. Before making that statement, he said, "one must believe that God exists and he is the rewarder of those who seek him." So, we see that Faith is accepting the truth about God."
Heb 11:8
Says faith is beyond understanding.
You say no.
I will go by the Bible.
I SOLIDLY PROVED you are wrong.

My point is this: Abraham was in direct contact with God, but we aren't. Our faith is not blind trust because we trust the scriptures.

 

[CadyandZoe]

QUOTE
"God does not bypass anything. The Bible was written in normal human language, which anyone can read. If there is a lack of understanding, it comes from being unfamiliar with the overall context."
Heb 11 says way different;
11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Ahem, if you read the story, they both wavered in NOT TRUSTING GOD.(faith wavered)
They failed in faith (trust), both of them.
We see a "reprieve" in heb 11, where the HS, does not leave them in condemnation, but applies faith to them both.
We serve a beautiful God.

I get it, you mean that folks trusted God for things that they didn't see. But we are talking about faith, not trust. Trust can be blind, but faith is never blind.

 

[WPM]

Lol
Pure lies.
Pituful

Is it even possible for you to engage in scriptural debate? You bring no Scripture to the table and rubbish that which others do. Do you accept the Bible is the Word of God?

 

[CadyandZoe]

This is talking about our souls going to heaven when we physically die. How does this prove pretrib?


Whoa there, buddy! You are making scripture say what you want it to say once again. You should never do that!

Nowhere does that say that the bridegroom takes the wise virgins with Him form where He came from. Scripture says we will meet the Lord "in the air" when He comes and NEVER says He turns around and takes us to heaven afterwards. Why wouldn't we just meet Him in heaven if that was where we were going? Pretrib has no answer for that.

Pretrib also ignores the other scriptures which show what will happen to those who say "Lord, Lord" when He comes.

Luke 13:23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, 24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

This passage shows when people like the foolish virgins are saying "Lord, Lord, open unto us" they will be cast out to the place where "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth". Not cast out to face an imaginary Antichrist during an imaginary tribulation that takes place after the rapture. Cast out to the place where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. Where is that?

Matthew 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Unbelievers will be cast into the furnace of fire, otherwise known as "the lake of fire" (Rev 20:15) or "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels (Matt 25:41), where "there shall wailing and gnashing of teeth" when Jesus comes to take His people to Himself. Pretribs don't see that on the same day as the rapture Jesus will destroy His enemies.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.



Are you somehow not aware that the souls of the dead in Christ are in heaven right now? And that they are conscious there?

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


You blatantly twist scripture to fit your view. That does not say the marriage supper is in heaven. It says His wife has made herself ready for the marriage, not that the marriage has taken place yet.


Your doctrine TWISTS and CHANGES and BUTCHERS scripture.


Do you believe in soul sleep or something? He will come with the souls of the dead in Christ and they will unite with their resurrected, changed bodies at that time (1 Thess 4:14-17, 1 Cor 15:22-23;50-54).

Who told you that people to to heaven?

 

[rebuilder 454]

Maybe this will help
From gotquestions.org
"In Scripture, faith is defined as “the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen” (Hebrews 11:1). In other words, faith involves trusting in something you cannot explicitly prove. Faith is inseparable from trust; it’s the confidence that God can and will do what He says in His Word. Faith includes both intellectual assent to something and trust in it. So we believe something to be true, and we also place our trust in it—we rely on it. Faith recognizes that a chair is designed to support the person who sits on it, and trust demonstrates the faith by actually sitting in the chair.

Faith without trust is not faith. Belief without reliance is empty. Many people believe certain facts about Jesus Christ, but knowing those facts to be true is not what the Bible means by “faith.” The biblical definition of faith requires trust in—a commitment to—the facts."

IOW, You are not going to have one with out the other

 

[rebuilder 454]

My point is this: Abraham was in direct contact with God, but we aren't. Our faith is not blind trust because we trust the scriptures.

All Christians are in direct contact with God.
If not, Then something is wrong...very wrong

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Lol
Pure lies.
Pituful

Great response. You did nothing to refute anything I said. Because you know you can't.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Pot<> kettle.
Calm down and get a bible

Use the Bible to support your claims or shut up. Your arguments are weak and completely void of substance. You must be incapable of exegeting scripture and backing up your claims with scripture since you never do it. You have this fantasy where you think your words alone mean something. They don't. They just make you look like a babbling fool.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Is it even possible for you to engage in scriptural debate? You bring no Scripture to the table and rubbish that which others do. Do you accept the Bible is the Word of God?

He is not capable of it or he would have done it by now. He seems to think his foolish words are equivalent to the Word of God.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Maybe this will help
From gotquestions.org
"In Scripture, faith is defined as “the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen” (Hebrews 11:1). In other words, faith involves trusting in something you cannot explicitly prove. Faith is inseparable from trust; it’s the confidence that God can and will do what He says in His Word. Faith includes both intellectual assent to something and trust in it. So we believe something to be true, and we also place our trust in it—we rely on it. Faith recognizes that a chair is designed to support the person who sits on it, and trust demonstrates the faith by actually sitting in the chair.

Faith without trust is not faith. Belief without reliance is empty. Many people believe certain facts about Jesus Christ, but knowing those facts to be true is not what the Bible means by “faith.” The biblical definition of faith requires trust in—a commitment to—the facts."

IOW, You are not going to have one with out the other

gotquestions.org is wrong. Paul is not defining faith in that verse. Paul is NOT saying, "In the absence of actual evidence, we have faith instead." That is false and far away from what Paul means to say.

What Paul means to say is this. We can find evidence that God justifies those who believe what he says in the Scriptures. The thing unseen is God's approval. Justification is not something we can see, but we can see evidence of it in the scriptures because God HIMSELF declares it.

Trust is not Faith. The are closely associated, but they are not the same thing. Faith has content -- ideas that we affirm. We believe the gospel, which is propositional truth.

 

[CadyandZoe]

All Christians are in direct contact with God.
If not, Then something is wrong...very wrong

If that were true, we would have no need for the written word.

 

[rebuilder 454]

If that were true, we would have no need for the written word.

you saying God never talks to you?

 

[rebuilder 454]

I get it, you mean that folks trusted God for things that they didn't see. But we are talking about faith, not trust. Trust can be blind, but faith is never blind.

The word says that peter walked on water, until he looked around. eyesight (understanding) caused him to fail.
I have already shown you that faith is Blind.
Peter VIVIDY demonstrated that to you.
I can post unlimited verses challenging your idea that faith and trust are not Basically the same.
IOW you are never going to see faith without trust.

 

[rebuilder 454]

gotquestions.org is wrong. Paul is not defining faith in that verse. Paul is NOT saying, "In the absence of actual evidence, we have faith instead." That is false and far away from what Paul means to say.

What Paul means to say is this. We can find evidence that God justifies those who believe what he says in the Scriptures. The thing unseen is God's approval. Justification is not something we can see, but we can see evidence of it in the scriptures because God HIMSELF declares it.

Trust is not Faith. The are closely associated, but they are not the same thing. Faith has content -- ideas that we affirm. We believe the gospel, which is propositional truth.

gotquestions.org is wrong.

No, what they said is actually a no brainer

Trust is not Faith.

You will NEVER find faith exercised without trust

Faith has content -- ideas that we affirm

Nope. Faith is basically "pretending" like the word of God is true. (acting on what He says,whether it conflicts with my mind or not) (AHEM,TRUSTING HIM)

We believe the gospel, which is propositional truth.

Not enough. Faith must be applied.
The devil also believes.
belief is different than faith

 

[honeycomb]

Who told you that people to to heaven?

Hi,@CadyandZoe … When we die, we are instantly in the presence of the Lord. Our flesh body remains in the grave but our soul returns to God.

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

Ecclesiastes 12:6-7 Remember your Creator before the silver cord is loosed, Or the golden bowl is broken, Or the pitcher shattered at the fountain, Or the wheel broken at the well. Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.

PEtRA

 

[CadyandZoe]

you saying God never talks to you?

God never talks to me. But the point is, the existence of the Bible is proof that he intends to communicate by the written word. And he intends to be understood. The purpose of the Bible is to reveal mysteries, not to conceal the truth. If a doctrine consists of a mystery we can't understand, it isn't truth.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The word says that peter walked on water, until he looked around. eyesight (understanding) caused him to fail.
I have already shown you that faith is Blind.
Peter VIVIDY demonstrated that to you.
I can post unlimited verses challenging your idea that faith and trust are not Basically the same.
IOW you are never going to see faith without trust.

Faith is believing what is true. Faith is not believing without proof.

 

[CadyandZoe]

No, what they said is actually a no brainer

Right. That's the point.

You will NEVER find faith exercised without trust.

Why not?

Nope. Faith is basically "pretending" like the word of God is true.

No. Faith is the opposite of pretending.

(acting on what He says,whether it conflicts with my mind or not) (AHEM,TRUSTING HIM)

Yes, you describe trust. Sometimes we suspend our belief in order to trust. But our confidence is always based on trusting the trustworthy. And we use our minds to decide who is trustworthy.

Not enough. Faith must be applied.
The devil also believes.
belief is different than faith

Belief is the noun. Faith is the verb. Same idea.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Hi,@CadyandZoe … When we die, we are instantly in the presence of the Lord. Our flesh body remains in the grave but our soul returns to God.

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

Ecclesiastes 12:6-7 Remember your Creator before the silver cord is loosed, Or the golden bowl is broken, Or the pitcher shattered at the fountain, Or the wheel broken at the well. Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.

PEtRA

Paul is not saying that the moment are absent from the body we are immediately present with the Lord. He teaches us that at the last trump we will rise from the dead and meet the Lord in the air.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Right. That's the point.

Why not?

No. Faith is the opposite of pretending.

Yes, you describe trust. Sometimes we suspend our belief in order to trust. But our confidence is always based on trusting the trustworthy. And we use our minds to decide who is trustworthy.

Belief is the noun. Faith is the verb. Same idea.

I give you an "f" in comprehension.
" pretending" by being in QUOTE, would point to "not literally".
Show me where I said pretending, as you are erroneously implying.
But I actually knew you would do just that, as you are now just trolling the subject.

But yes FAITH WOULD BE LIKE "PRETENDING" THE WORD IS TRUE.
PSSST...THAT MEANS "BELIEVING AND ACTING" AS IF IT IS TRUE.

What happened to the thoughtful person you displayed a few days ago?

Hey if you think the concept of, "faith inseparable with trust", is some bogey man, that is upsetting your entire "faith"...then start a thread correcting us that are in such error.
Prove your point .

I am batting the air with your "mind over bible concepts".

You present the exact opposite of what the Bible reads, and defend it with white knuckles.