When are the dead and living in Christ caught up to the Lord?

[Stewardofthemystery]

OK. You can pretend that the earth is not reaped

I didn’t say that did I?

You have to ignore what is written to prove your doctrine. And yet in Rev 14 we see the righteous are gathered first.

What I said is written, what You said above is NOT written in Rev. 14 that is your spin.

Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

No sir. This is the harvest of the seed of the woman the twelve tribes across the earth. Why do you think that there are 144,000 first fruits?

They are the first fruits of the fall fruit harvest.

Rev 14
Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

Why do you think that those that come out of great tribulation are singing the song of Moses........they are Jews.

Revelation 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.


Absolutely not. The time of trouble, the great tribulation begins when the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet is set up in the Temple.

Matthew 24
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The great tribulation is the 5th seal.

Revelation 6
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

The great tribulation is also seen here.

Revelation 14
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

The great tribulation is over before the 6th seal is opened as Jesus returns as marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars.


The last trump is blown on the Feast of Trumpets.............a day of blowing trumpets. It is the fall harvest feast.

As for the "last day"? Which last day are you talking about? The last day when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in? Or the last day at the end of the great tribulation? Or last day at the end of the wrath of God?

 

[honeycomb]

No, I'm saying that the second coming is at the 6th seal before the 7th seal wrath of God is opnened.

Do you believe in a pre-trib rapture? Maybe that's where we disagree, as I believe that Christians with the seal of God in their foreheads will sail right on through the tribulation. No problem for “bruisers.” Yes, we will be standing firm among the Elect as we witness for the LORD, enduring to the end when Jesus returns.

Revelation 9:1-5 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man
————
Mark 13:9-11 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them. And the gospel must first be published among all nations. But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

—PEtRA

 

[3 Resurrections]

The 144,000 first fruits of the 12 tribes of Israel has not occurred. It cannot occur until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

If that were true, then that would make the Jewish 144,000 the "LAST-fruits" instead. But that is not what they were called. Christ the First-fruits and the 144,000 First-fruits were what composed the "First resurrection" event. Christ and the Matthew 27:52-53 saints all being raised from the grave on that same day was symbolized under the OT rituals by the wave sheaf of First-fruits barley offered together in the temple during Passover week along with a single he-lamb without blemish (Leviticus 23:10-12).

The 70th week of Daniel has not begun.

Not so. The 70th week of Daniel followed immediately after the 69th week. No extended, imaginary time gap in between. During that 70th week, the Messiah was "cut off" (out of the land of the living), and "He caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease" once He had offered Himself as the one sacrifice for all time in the middle of that 70th week. Three and a half more years followed in which evangelism of the early church was mainly concentrated on the nation of Israel and Jerusalem in particular. The 70th week of Daniel's prophecy ended with Paul's commission by God in Jerusalem's temple vision in AD 37 to "depart hence" from Jerusalem when he was sent "far hence unto the Gentiles".

There's zero chance these conclusions are correct. No harvest has taken place. Only the first fruits of the 1st harvest has taken place.

Then you are directly contradicting Christ Himself in Matthew 16:27-28. Not a good choice on your part.

 

[jeffweeder]

2Thess 2
2 Now we ask you, brothers and sisters, regarding the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit, or a message, or a letter as if from us to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.

You are leaving all the qualifying information out. AND OUR GATHERING TO TOGETHER TO HIM.

I didn't leave anything out. I quoted that passage to you.
Jesus coming is always about him coming and receiving his own to himself. 1Thess 4 is no different

Paul is saying that they are not in the day of the Lord. Paul tells them before the second coming (which occurs at the 6th seal) and the gathering from heaven and earth there must be a falling away the man of sin must be revealed. Don't be concerned, you are not in the day of the Lord.

I agree. So anyone who believes that Paul alludes to 2 different comings is not to be listened to.
What he taught them in 1Thess is what he taught them in 2Thess
2Thess was written to address any confusion about what he meant in 1Thess.

The Day of the Lord​

1Thess 5
Now as to the periods and times, brothers and sisters, you have no need of anything to be written to you. 2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord is coming just like a thief in the night.

Paul clearly fully informed them about the Lords one and only coming in his first letter to them.

 

[3 Resurrections]

If these saints of Old have been resurrected back to life on earth in immortal bodies, how is that reconciled with what John has written in Jo 5 where he writes ALL of the dead shall be resurrected from the graves unto the resurrection of damnation, or resurrection of life?

John 5:28-29 (KJV) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

You need to go back just a couple verses before John 5:28-29, and you will find Christ's prediction of the resurrection of the Matthew 27:52-53 saints. John 5:25 says, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live."

That hour that was "COMING" in the future was the anticipated resurrection of the Matthew 27:52-53 saints our of their graves into immortal life.

That hour which Christ said "NOW IS" was referring to Christ's and the disciples' ability to raise individuals from the dead in the cities of Israel which they were then evangelizing. This was ONLY the Israelite cities who were experiencing these cases of individuals being raised to glorified immortal bodies. Christ specifically told the twelve, "Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel....Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils..." (Matt. 10:5-8).

Those few individuals that Christ and the disciples were then raising from the dead in those Israelite cities (during the hour that "now is") would later on be followed (in that "hour that is coming") by the many Matthew 27:52-53 saints who would hear the voice of the Son of God, and who would also be raised to immortal life. This was a resurrection of ONLY righteous saints - no wicked among them.

Yet in the John 5:28-29 verse you brought up, Christ continued to describe yet another resurrection for another "hour that is coming" - this time not being limited only to Israelites, but for ALL that were in the grave at that time (from Gentile lands as well as the cities of Israel), both good and evil, who would hear the voice of the Son of Man and come forth to receive either immortal life or destruction in that judgment.

You would also need to reconcile this partial resurrection in immortal bodies with what is written in Hebrews that tells us the Old Covenant faithful, even though of faith had not yet received the promise, because none shall be made perfect without all of us (believers)?

Hebrews 11:39-40 (KJV) And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

This is not a contradiction. "THESE ALL" who obtained a good report in the Hebrews 11 "Hall of Faith" were a particular list of the patriarchs by name, as well as Rahab, Sarah, and some of the named judges and prophets, and the persecuted Israelites who remained faithful to God under torture and persecution.

The Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints were not included in those listed in Hebrews 11. That is because they were a specifically-chosen group of 144,000 First-fruits Jewish tribal members - the only ones who could "learn that song" - because their experience was a unique one that distinguished them from all the rest of the faithful. God chose those Matt. 27:52-53 resurrected saints to remain on earth in those glorified immortal bodies to serve in the early church in the role of apostles and prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers (Ephesians 4:8-12). They were given as "gifts to men" to help perfect the saints for the work of the ministry, and to edify the body of Christ in those first-century days.

All of these resurrected saints which Christ spoke about in John 5:25-29 were taken to heaven in AD 70 when they all together met Christ in the air. Those who had been made alive by resurrection earlier than the others did not "precede them which are asleep". The dead saints in the ground rose first in AD 70 and were caught up in the clouds, and were immediately followed by those who had already been made "alive", but who had "remained" on the earth until then. Paul's described "rapture" of the resurrected saints in 1 Thess. 4 took place long ago.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Paul clearly fully informed them about the Lords one and only coming in his first letter to them.

Scripture never speaks about a "One and ONLY coming". This is a common presumption that has no basis of scripture proof at all.

 

[jeffweeder]

Scripture never speaks about a "One and ONLY coming". This is a common presumption that has no basis of scripture proof at all.

Where did Jesus make it clear that he was speaking of two?
Where did Jesus first discuss his promise to come again?


John 14
“Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many rooms; if that were not so, I would have told you, because I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will take you to Myself, so that where I am, there you also will be.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Where did Jesus make it clear that he was speaking of two?
Where did Jesus first discuss his promise to come again?


John 14
“Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many rooms; if that were not so, I would have told you, because I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will take you to Myself, so that where I am, there you also will be.

Those John 14:1-3 verses were speaking of Christ's promised first-century return - His second coming. Christ predicted that some of those He was speaking to in Matthew 16:27-28 would live to see His coming return in the glory of His Father with the holy angels, when He would give rewards to everyone according to their works. The timing of this return is quite clear: Christ said that some of those He was speaking to right then would not have died before they saw Him coming.

Most do not believe Christ meant what He said in these Matt. 16:27-28 verses. Most will deny a bodily return of Christ before all of those He was personally speaking to had died. I believe Christ meant exactly what He said about His first-century bodily return.

But since that past second coming bodily return of Christ to the Mount of Olives in the first century, the number of believers who either have died or will die in Christ since then have also been promised a bodily resurrection inheritance. That necessitates yet another return of Christ and another bodily resurrection event for the rest of us. Because scripture states that "we must ALL appear before the judgment seat of Christ: that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad". (2 Cor. 5:10). ALL must appear before Christ for a judgment, but that does not require that this must take place on a single occasion only. That has been presumed to be true, but there is no biblical basis for limiting God's judgment of all mankind to ONLY a single occasion for everyone simultaneously. God can and has opened the books more than once already.

 

[Davy]

I am accustomed to people debating back and forth about this particular date for the resurrection of Christ, whether AD 30, or AD 33, or other years. At the moment, pinpointing this year is not a critical point for what we are discussing, so I won't go there. But it was most definitely called a "harvest" of the saints' bodies out of the grave in Revelation 14:14-16.

Yes, Christ was called the "First-fruits", but the 144,000 were ALSO called "First-fruits" in Rev. 14:4, who stood with the Lamb on Mount Zion - literally standing in the city of Jerusalem where the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints were seen by many on the day of Christ's resurrection. Both Christ and the 144,000 (the Matt. 27:52-53 saints) all shared the same title of the "First-fruits" because they all shared the experience of being the first mass group to be resurrected out of the grave that same day during Passover week. Two more mass group bodily resurrection events would follow, one of which took place on AD 70's Pentecost day.


Sure, I can provide this, and it synchronizes with Christ's own prediction of when He would return in the glory of His Father with the holy angels, to give rewards to everyone according to their works. Christ said His second-coming return would happen while some of those He was speaking to in Matthew 16:27-28 were still alive in that first century generation. Given the natural lifespan of mankind, an AD 70 second coming return of Christ is entirely within the expected range of Christ's prediction in Matt. 16:27-28. If they were a young adult, it was entirely possible that some hearing Christ's words at that time would live to see Christ's return and the events in AD 70 transpiring.

Daniel gave the exact countdown to that resurrection day in Daniel 12:11-13. Daniel gave two signs to look for (which Christ again highlighted in the Olivet Discourse). These two distinct events would occur within the same season of time. For one sign, there would be what Daniel termed "the abomination of desolation" (which "abomination of desolation" Luke 21:20 interprets for us as "Jerusalem surrounded by armies"). For the other sign occurring in the same season of time, there would be a time when a daily sacrifice was taken away.

Both of these two events occurred together in the same summer season of AD 66. First, Eleazar the temple's governor organized the removal of the daily sacrifice which until then had been given for the Roman empire and its emperor. Eleazar also forbad the acceptance of any sacrifices brought to the temple by foreigners. This broke the agreement between Rome and Israel which had allowed Israel to practice Judaism as a "religio licita" - one of the state-approved religions of the empire. This was an overt act of war, and Nero responded accordingly. The Roman-occupied Masada fortress was also taken by the Jews at this time, as well as the garrison of Roman troops at the Fortress of Antonia being slaughtered.

This rebellious act of provocation with Eleazar taking away the temple's daily sacrifice for the Roman empire and its emperor resulted in Nero sending Cestius Gallus to surround Jerusalem with a Roman army in AD 66. Gallus's Roman troops battled their way into Jerusalem and made contact with the temple gate, which they were preparing to undermine in October of AD 66 (the abomination "standing where it ought not"). This occasion was the beginning of Daniel's 1,335-day countdown to a resurrection at Christ's return.

We are told that for no reason whatever, Cestius Gallus decided to withdraw his army from Jerusalem at that point, when he no doubt could have pressed his advantage and taken the city within the week. God designed this unexplainable withdrawal of Gallus's Roman troops for an important reason: it gave any believers present within the city of Jerusalem at that time a brief couple of days to flee from Jerusalem and head for the mountains (as Christ had warned them to do back in Luke 21:20-21, when they saw "Jerusalem surrounded by armies"). After those couple of days, the Zealot armies would return to Jerusalem from their victory over Cestius Gallus' troops and lock the gates to prevent anyone escaping from the city.

Daniel then wrote that 1,290 days of this 1,335-day period would pass. Coincidentally, this set period of 1,290 days ended 5 days after Passover week had started in AD 70, when once again the Roman army showed up to surround Jerusalem and besiege the city under the leadership of Titus. From this 1,290th day when Titus had set up his army around Jerusalem, there was the final period of 45 more days that would pass until Pentecost day in AD 70. Daniel was promised the blessing of participating in this resurrection at the end of those 1,335 days. This Pentecost day resurrection at Christ's second coming return in AD 70 falls within the time requirement of Christ's prediction - that He would return before some of those He was then speaking to in Matthew 16:27-28 had yet died.

These two fulfilled bodily resurrection events taking place at Passover and at Pentecost day will be followed by yet another third bodily resurrection at Christ's return in our future, at the time when the Feast of Tabernacles would ordinarily have been celebrated (in the 7th month of the year). It will not be soon.

Truly wild... conjecture.

The "abomination of desolation" is about the placing of an IDOL abomination in false worship INSIDE a STANDING JEWISH STONE TEMPLE in Jerusalem. What Antiochus IV did in 165 B.C. set the pattern for it by the final Antichrist at the end of this world.

The Roman army in 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem and the temple FAILED to seize possession of the Jerusalem temple. It caught fire and burned down before the Romans could possess it. So NO "abomination of desolation" per the Book of Daniel ever happened by the Romans.

Those who reject the simple Daniel 11:31 Scripture that shows just what the "abomination of desolation" prophecy is about... try... to make up all kinds of excuses in claiming the AOD already happened and was fulfilled by the Romans in 70 A.D.

The false Jews of the "synagogue of Satan" dream up all kinds of ways to try and twist Bible Scripture to get one's attention off... of end time events written to occur in JERUSALEM for the end. JERUSALEM is where the IDOL of the coming beast king will be setup at the end of this world. The pattern for that is what Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon did in Daniel's day with the setting up of a gold idol, and demanding that all bow in worship to it at the sound of the psalter. That pattern is what the "image of the beast" worship of Rev.13 will be about at the end of this world, all being required to bow to it or be killed. That image IDOL is to be setup in a another Jewish stone temple in Jerusalem by the coming false-Messiah.

 

[rwb]

John 5:25 says, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live."

John 5:24-25 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

The hour that now is for hearing the Gospel to be saved. The only way that man may pass from death to life is through hearing His Word (Gospel) and believing. The time for hearing the Word that is NOW is not from physical death, but from spiritual death for we who were dead (not physically) in trespasses and sins have been made alive through the power of the Gospel through the Spirit proclaimed.

Ephesians 2:1 (KJV) And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Ephesians 2:5-6 (KJV) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

The hour that NOW is has nothing to do with the hour that is coming. If we desire to be resurrected from physical death, with immortal & incorruptible body, we must first, during the hour that NOW is be made spiritually alive according to grace through faith. Otherwise at hour that is coming when all who are in the GRAVES hear His voice, we shall be resurrected to condemnation and not to everlasting life.

 

[rwb]

Those John 14:1-3 verses were speaking of Christ's promised first-century return - His second coming. Christ predicted that some of those He was speaking to in Matthew 16:27-28 would live to see His coming return in the glory of His Father with the holy angels, when He would give rewards to everyone according to their works. The timing of this return is quite clear: Christ said that some of those He was speaking to right then would not have died before they saw Him coming.

Most do not believe Christ meant what He said in these Matt. 16:27-28 verses. Most will deny a bodily return of Christ before all of those He was personally speaking to had died. I believe Christ meant exactly what He said about His first-century bodily return.

But since that past second coming bodily return of Christ to the Mount of Olives in the first century, the number of believers who either have died or will die in Christ since then have also been promised a bodily resurrection inheritance. That necessitates yet another return of Christ and another bodily resurrection event for the rest of us. Because scripture states that "we must ALL appear before the judgment seat of Christ: that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad". (2 Cor. 5:10). ALL must appear before Christ for a judgment, but that does not require that this must take place on a single occasion only. That has been presumed to be true, but there is no biblical basis for limiting God's judgment of all mankind to ONLY a single occasion for everyone simultaneously. God can and has opened the books more than once already.

Christ NEVER promised a first century return. His promise was that He would come to them by sending His Spirit who would be within them, and never depart. It is in this manner that the promise of Christ was fulfilled "I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen."

John 14:16-17 (KJV) And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Matthew 28:20 (KJV) Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

 

[3 Resurrections]

The "abomination of desolation" is about the placing of an IDOL abomination in false worship INSIDE a STANDING JEWISH STONE TEMPLE in Jerusalem. What Antiochus IV did in 165 B.C. set the pattern for it by the final Antichrist at the end of this world.

That is a common assumption, but it is not the way that Luke interprets Daniel's "abomination of desolation" phrase. Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14 both use only the "abomination of desolation" phrase, but Luke 21:20-21 does the interpreting of that phrase for us, explaining that this AOD was "Jerusalem surrounded by armies". Why would you want to discount Luke 21:20-21 and its interpretation? This is a God-inspired explanation that it was "Jerusalem surrounded by armies" that was the "abomination of desolation" found in Matthew and Mark - and Daniel.

Antiochus IV brought a standing army against Jerusalem ("and ARMS shall stand on his part..." - Dan. 11:31), which army's actions created all kinds of desolations in Jerusalem, including the temple.
Once again in AD 66, armies came to surround Jerusalem under the leadership of the Roman general Cestius Gallus, who was opposed by the Zealot armies that also came to Jerusalem from their home turf in "Galilee of the Gentiles".

An idol by itself cannot create "desolation". An idol is nothing but inert material. But an invading army can create all kinds of desolation of the landscape, the resources, the people, and the infrastructure of a city.

The Antichrist which 1 & 2 John, Paul, and Christ spoke about is not coming in our future. Paul said in 2 Thess. 2:3-7 that this single man and his restrainer were already alive in his own days, and that the Thessalonians had been told who these two men were. That "Man of Lawlessness" and his restrainer have long since died back in the first century, and are not a threat for our own future.

Those who reject the simple Daniel 11:31 Scripture that shows just what the "abomination of desolation" prophecy is about... try... to make up all kinds of excuses in claiming the AOD already happened and was fulfilled by the Romans in 70 A.D.

I don't reject Daniel 11:31 at all. It proves my point that it was an army that created the desolations. "And ARMS shall stand on his part..." That was AN ARMY that was serving Antiochus Epiphanes' purposes of creating desolations in the city of Jerusalem.

Once again, it was ARMIES that came to surround Jerusalem in AD 66 that caused desolations. And it wasn't only the Roman armies: it was also the ZEALOT ARMIES with their competing factions who did the most damage to their own people in Jerusalem from AD 66-early AD 70. Daniel 9:26 spoke of these multiple armies, saying, "unto the end of the war, desolations (PLURAL) are determined". And in Daniel 9:27, again he said, "And with the abominable ARMIES (PLURAL) he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation...". There is no idol mentioned anywhere in all this that creates desolation.

The false Jews of the "synagogue of Satan" dream up all kinds of ways to try and twist Bible Scripture to get one's attention off... of end time events written to occur in JERUSALEM for the end. JERUSALEM is where the IDOL of the coming beast king will be setup at the end of this world. The pattern for that is what Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon did in Daniel's day with the setting up of a gold idol, and demanding that all bow in worship to it at the sound of the psalter. That pattern is what the "image of the beast" worship of Rev.13 will be about at the end of this world, all being required to bow to it or be killed. That image IDOL is to be setup in a another Jewish stone temple in Jerusalem by the coming false-Messiah

THIS is all wild conjecture you are proposing above. That required homage given to the image of the Roman phase of the Sea Beast was already done away with back in AD 66 once the Zealot rebellion against Rome began. The "image" was not an "idol" standing in the temple. It was a stamped image that gave homage to the Roman phase of the Sea Beast that was on the Tyrian shekel coins required by the high priesthood of all who came to Jerusalem to worship in the temple. Anyone who rebelled and did not comply with the high priesthood's requirements to use this Tyrian shekel coin for temple sales and purchases was put under a ban and cast out of the synagogue. "Fear of the Jews" was a real problem back then for anyone who was forced to submit to their system. If one was cast out of the synagogue, no other Jews could support them or their livelihood. A virtual death sentence.

 

[The Light]

Do you believe in a pre-trib rapture?

Of course. The feasts of God prove that, let alone the plethora of scriptures that prove the same.

Maybe that's where we disagree, as I believe that Christians with the seal of God in their foreheads will sail right on through the tribulation. No problem for “bruisers.” Yes, we will be standing firm among the Elect as we witness for the LORD, enduring to the end when Jesus returns.

If you really understood what you were reading you would know that the great tribulation is over before the opening of the 6th seal. You would also know that there is a harvest at the 6th seal. You would also know that the 144,000 are first fruits of that harvest. That means the 144,000 that are sealed do not go through the wrath of God which includes the 5th trumpet. We can further prove this by Revelation 14.

Believers are not appointed to wrath.

 

[honeycomb]

Of course. The feasts of God prove that, let alone the plethora of scriptures that prove the same.


If you really understood what you were reading you would know that the great tribulation is over before the opening of the 6th seal. You would also know that there is a harvest at the 6th seal. You would also know that the 144,000 are first fruits of that harvest. That means the 144,000 that are sealed do not go through the wrath of God which includes the 5th trumpet. We can further prove this by Revelation 14.

Believers are not appointed to wrath.

Ah well…we’ll just have to disagree on this very spectacular topic. Blessings upon you.

 

[The Light]

If that were true, then that would make the Jewish 144,000 the "LAST-fruits" instead.

No it would make them first fruits of the second harvest.

But that is not what they were called. Christ the First-fruits and the 144,000 First-fruits were what composed the "First resurrection" event.

Not so. The fathers of were supposed to be the first fruits of the first harvest, but they served Baalpeor so they would not be the first fruits of the 1st harvest. The Gentiles would be the 1 harvest. This is why there are 144,000 first fruits after the pretrib rapture.

Hosea 9
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

Christ and the Matthew 27:52-53 saints all being raised from the grave on that same day was symbolized under the OT rituals by the wave sheaf of First-fruits barley offered together in the temple during Passover week along with a single he-lamb without blemish (Leviticus 23:10-12).

And yet the barley and wheat cakes are presented at Pentecost which represents the dead in Christ and the alive that remained. This wave offering of the 144,000 from the 12 tribes occurs in Rev 14 as the High Priest presents them to the throne.

Rev 14
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Not so. The 70th week of Daniel followed immediately after the 69th week. No extended, imaginary time gap in between.

It that were so there would be no purpose for these verses.

Daniel 9
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

During that 70th week, the Messiah was "cut off" (out of the land of the living), and "He caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease"

No. They were still sacrificing. And you don't need to tell me Jesus was the final sacrifice etc. etc.

once He had offered Himself as the one sacrifice for all time in the middle of that 70th week. Three and a half more years followed in which evangelism of the early church was mainly concentrated on the nation of Israel and Jerusalem in particular. The 70th week of Daniel's prophecy ended with Paul's commission by God in Jerusalem's temple vision in AD 37 to "depart hence" from Jerusalem when he was sent "far hence unto the Gentiles".

This holds no water. Did Jesus destroy the city of Jerusalem and the Temple????????????????? Common sense and truth should be applied.

Then you are directly contradicting Christ Himself in Matthew 16:27-28. Not a good choice on your part.

Not so. John did not die before He saw Jesus coming with His angels. And he revealed Jesus Christ by writing the things he saw.

 

[The Light]

Ah well…we’ll just have to disagree on this very spectacular topic. Blessings upon you.

Thank you. And to you.

 

[3 Resurrections]

The hour that NOW is has nothing to do with the hour that is coming. If we desire to be resurrected from physical death, with immortal & incorruptible body, we must first, during the hour that NOW is be made spiritually alive according to grace through faith. Otherwise at hour that is coming when all who are in the GRAVES hear His voice, we shall be resurrected to condemnation and not to everlasting life.

When Christ spoke about the hour that "NOW IS", He was speaking of the time back then in the AD 30's - not your time and mine. Back then, individuals on a case-by-case basis were being resurrected to an immortal life (Jairus's daughter, the widow's son, Lazarus, etc.)

But I agree that the hour that "NOW IS" time period had nothing to do with "the hour that is coming" which Christ spoke about. These were two different "hours" of time that Christ was speaking about.

And I also agree that the requirement for participating in a physical bodily resurrection is that one must first "be made spiritually alive according to grace through faith", as you said above. THAT process Christ spoke about in John 5:24 - prior to any of those physical bodily resurrection events to an immortal life that would take place, which Christ described in John 5:25-29.

John 5:24, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation: but is passed from death unto life." THIS is the spiritual resurrection to life that was required before any physical bodily resurrection to an immortal life could happen.

Christ NEVER promised a first century return.

YES. HE. DID. On several occasions. Like yourself, I also read over these passages for many decades without recognizing that Christ actually meant what He said. It is quite liberating to actually believe that Christ fulfilled that promise exactly as He said He would for His own first-century generation. It encourages me that He will indeed perform the same thing for me in the future as well. What Christ has done already back in AD 70, He can certainly do again for me in my future.

Having the promise of Christ's Spirit within the believers is quite another thing than seeing Christ Jesus appear in His glorified, bodily-resurrected form and take the resurrected saints back to heaven with Him. The granting of rewards in a judgment before the throne is also more than having the promise of the Spirit dwelling within. That indwelling Spirit was called "the earnest of the inheritance" (a pledge of a future promised blessing) that the believers were to have UNTIL the redemption of their physical bodies in the resurrection process (Ephesian 1:13-14 cp Romans 8:23).

 

[The Light]

I didn't leave anything out. I quoted that passage to you.
Jesus coming is always about him coming and receiving his own to himself. 1Thess 4 is no different

The gathering from heaven and earth occurs before the day of the Lord. This is the gathering at the last trump (1 Cor 15}

The rapture of the Church is not the gathering that occurs just before the day of the Lord. The rapture of the Church (1 Thes 4) occurs before the tribulation.

I agree. So anyone who believes that Paul alludes to 2 different comings is not to be listened to.

You might want to study the feasts of God which show the plan for the end. You might also understand that He comes when it is like the days of Noah and comes when it is like the days of Lot. Two raptures.

Why does Jesus say we will desire to see one of the days of the Son of man if there is only one day of the Son of man?

Luke 17
22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.

23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.

24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

Why does John say there are two folds. The two folds will be brought into one-fold, hence the great multitude in heaven.

John 10
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

I could go on and on. And on and on. There will be two raptures as the fig tree has two harvests. Jacob had two bride. He worked 7 more years for the chosen bride.

What he taught them in 1Thess is what he taught them in 2Thess
2Thess was written to address any confusion about what he meant in 1Thess.

The Day of the Lord​

1Thess 5
Now as to the periods and times, brothers and sisters, you have no need of anything to be written to you. 2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord is coming just like a thief in the night.

Paul clearly fully informed them about the Lords one and only coming in his first letter to them.

There is absolutely nothing in scripture that says there is only one coming. And you skipped a vital piece of information. Why, if there is only one coming did Paul use the terms TIMES AND SEASONS. He should have used time and season.

1 Thes 5
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

 

[3 Resurrections]

No it would make them first fruits of the second harvest.

No, it makes them the "Firstfruits" of the barley harvest - the FIRST harvest of Israel's agricultural year. The 144,000 First-fruits (the Matt. 27:52-53 resurrected saints) were a limited number - comparable to the wave sheaf handful of barley offered in the temple along with the single He-lamb without blemish (Christ the Lamb) in Leviticus 23:9-12. Those 144,000 were a limited number, because - like the wave-sheaf of barley - it showed the promise of a coming "harvest" of saints that would be a great unnumbered multitude.

Hosea 9
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time

"First-ripe" of the figs is NOT the same as the "First-fruits" wave sheaf of barley. You are mixing up your Israel harvest terms.

And yet the barley and wheat cakes are presented at Pentecost which represents the dead in Christ and the alive that remained. This wave offering of the 144,000 from the 12 tribes occurs in Rev 14 as the High Priest presents them to the throne.

When God anointed Christ as our Great High Priest in heaven on that morning after His resurrection, it was "necessary" that Christ as a High Priest offer gifts as well as a sacrifice (Hebrews 8:3). The "gifts" that Christ gave to men were that "multitude of captives" which the ascending Christ led out of the grave on that day of His own resurrection (Ephesians 4:8-12). Rev. 14 never said that those 144,000 were presented to the throne.

The 144,000 First-fruits Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints served as "gifts to men" in those roles of apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers in the early church. Their immortal presence served to edify the body of Christ and perfect the saints for the work of the ministry in those days prior to Christ's AD 70 Pentecost day return. If you want to compare the "two wave loaves" offered on Pentecost and made of fine flour and leaven with the dead in Christ and the alive that remained (the already resurrected 144,000 Matt. 27 saints), that works for me. Both groups of resurrected saints were together raptured to heaven with Christ back on Pentecost day in AD 70.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off,

"AFTER" simply means within the 70th week which immediately followed the 7 weeks and 62 weeks. The overriding purpose of Daniel's 70-week prophecy was to pinpoint the exact year in which the Messiah the Prince would come to His own people, and the year in which His death would end the need for any more sacrifices and oblations. (It is immaterial whether the Jews continued sacrificing in the temple or not - God changed the law concerning this, and there was no further need for sacrifice and oblation after Christ's sacrifice of Himself.) Christ fulfilled all the terms of those 70-week prophecy predictions to the letter, and exactly in the years predicted. That proves His deity. There is no gap anywhere within the intact 490 year timespan of the 70 week prophecy.

This holds no water. Did Jesus destroy the city of Jerusalem and the Temple????????????????? Common sense and truth should be applied.

Daniel wrote that it would be "the PEOPLE of the Prince that shall come" (Messiah the coming Prince) that would destroy the city and the sanctuary. The nationalistic Jewish Zealots themselves were the main cause for "treading underfoot" the holy city for 42 months (Rev. 11:2). It was the competing Zealot factions which came from "Galilee of the Gentiles" that were fighting each other in Jerusalem from AD 66 until early AD 70 that caused the most destruction of the city and the temple grounds - even before the Romans finally showed up again in the spring of AD 70.

John did not die before He saw Jesus coming with His angels. And he revealed Jesus Christ by writing the things he saw.

It was more than just John the Revelator who saw the returning Christ in the first century. It was the tribes of Israel within the besieged city of Jerusalem in AD 70 who were mourning when they saw that bodily return of Christ to the Mount of Olives. Zechariah 12:10 predicted this, and Rev. 1:7 repeated this prediction.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

The nation of Israel is the firstborn son. In the law the firstborn son was to receive a double portion. Deuteronomy 21:17

There are the firstfruits of Israel that were redeemed when Christ was raised up, Christ being the first of the firstfruits.

This first portion (firstfruits) of Israel that has already been redeemed is shown in Rev 14.

The latter day portion ( the double portion) of Israel is shown being sealed in Rev. 7

Israel was the first to labor in the Lord, and they shall also be the last.