When are the dead and living in Christ caught up to the Lord?

[3 Resurrections]

When are the dead and living in Christ caught up to the Lord?​

…at the 7th trump— after the AC has come and done his abominations.

That Antichrist already came and presented himself as the prophesied Messiah, King of the Jews in the Jerusalem temple long ago, back in AD 66. His name was Menahem, son or grandson of Judas the Galilean insurrectionist mentioned in Acts 5:37. Menahem was killed a short time afterward by Eleazar, the avenging son of Ananias the high priest who had been restraining Menahem's rise to power in Jerusalem up until Menahem murdered him in AD 66.

The Antichrist / Man of Lawlessness was a first-century Zealot leader. There were many of the Zealot leaders who were aspiring to become the fulfillment of Daniel 9's prophesied "Messiah the Prince" in those first-century days. Christ had predicted that this would happen in His own generation: those many "false christs" and "false prophets" supporting them. Menahem just happened to be the first to get into the temple of Jerusalem itself in AD 66, claiming to be that fulfillment.

Paul knew who both the restrainer and the Antichrist would be. He had personally informed the saints of the Thessalonian church of the identity of both of these men before he ever wrote 2 Thess. 2 about that "Man of Lawlessness" and his restrainer; two men whom Paul said were even then both in existence.

Neither the Antichrist nor his restrainer are something which we presently are anticipating in the future. This is ancient history.

 

[The Light]

The harvest in Revelation 14 is speaking of the same end time Harvest. It does not contradict Matthew 13. Revelation 14 does not say “the righteous are gathered first” it just shows both being harvested at the same time.

You must be reading a bad translation if that's what you conclude.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

This clearly shows that the righteous are gathered first.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

This clearly shows that the unrighteous are cast into the wrath of God after the righteous have been gathered.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth,

The scripture supports what I am saying. Your hollow unsupported statement is left wanting. I addressed every point you made and all you can do is mount one feeble unsupported statement.

Do you have anything that the scripture will not disprove? I think not.

THERE IS A PRETRIBULATION RAPTURE, just as the scripture shows.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

You must be reading a bad translation if that's what you conclude.

This clearly shows that the righteous are gathered first.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

This clearly shows that the unrighteous are cast into the wrath of God after the righteous have been gathered.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth,

The scripture supports what I am saying. Your hollow unsupported statement is left wanting. I addressed every point you made and all you can do is mount one feeble unsupported statement.

Do you have anything that the scripture will not disprove? I think not.

THERE IS A PRETRIBULATION RAPTURE, just as the scripture shows.

No, I’m just not trying to read something into that which is not there, like you. Both are gathered together at the same time, more proof….

Matthew 25:31-41

King James Version

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31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:”

Matthew 13:47-50

King James Version

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47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 13:28-30
King James Version
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28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.”

All the words of God agree.

 

[rwb]

Also notice the elect are still on earth during the great tribulation and wrath of God.


Matthew 24:22 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Revelation 7:14 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Revelation 16:15 15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.


All the scriptures agree there is no resurrection of the dead or the living in Christ until “the last day,”and at “the last trump.”

While I agree while the saints are still alive upon this earth they suffer through "great tribulation." But the saints shall not be on the earth when the wrath of God by fire is poured out to consume the earth and every living thing upon it. The saints who have physically died shall be resurrected to immortal and incorruptible bodies of flesh and caught up to meet the Lord in the air. The saints still physically alive shall also be physically caught up and changed to immortal and incorruptible bodies of flesh to meet the Lord in the air. Then the fire of God's wrath shall come down out of heaven to utterly burn up this earth and its elements.

The resurrection man must partake of before death is not the bodily resurrection that shall come when the last trumpet sounds. John shows us that shall be in an hour that is coming. But John also writes of the hour that NOW (since Christ has come) is "when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live." Because it has been given to the Son to have life in Himself.

John 5:25-26 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

Now in the hour/time/age that is since Christ has come mankind that is spiritually "dead in trespasses and sins" need not yet be bodily resurrected to physical life. They must be spiritually raised to life from spiritual death when they hear the voice of Christ through the Gospel preached and by grace through faith and the power of the Holy Spirit they believe. To be born again of the Spirit is to have life from the dead spiritually. When we have been made spiritually alive, we have become partakers of Christ's resurrection. That is how man must have part in the "first resurrection" because only those having part in the first resurrection through the resurrection of Christ have overcome the second death, and shall never die.

When we have been spiritually born again, our is made alive together with Christ. Being made spiritually alive through Christ, raised up we sit together with Christ in heavenly places. We are physically seated with Christ in the heavenly realm, but when we have been born again, through His Spirit in us we are spiritually speaking seated together with Christ that where He is we are also.

Ephesians 2:1 (KJV) And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Ephesians 2:5-6 (KJV) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Indeed, every believer looks forward with great hope and expectation of the final day when our bodies, like our spirits shall be resurrected immortal & incorruptible when the last trumpet sounds that Christ has come again. Our new immortal & incorruptible body shall be made alive though our the spiritual body that returns with Christ. On that day the last day given this earth the saints shall once again be whole and fit as we were at creation to live with Christ forever on the new earth.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 (KJV) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1 Corinthians 15:51-54 (KJV) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

 

[rwb]

Just to be clear, the first resurrection and judgement is to the house of God.

Revelation 20:4-6​

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King James Version​

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4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Do you not believe that Christ is the first resurrection, who by His life suffered the judgment of God for the sins of His people (elect)?

 

[jeffweeder]

Notice we see the Lord HIMSELF coming in 1 Thes 4. Notice at the coming of the Lord in Matthew 24 He send His angels. Two different comings. Two raptures.

Not so.
Paul actually believes that the Lord comes with his Angels.

He clarifies his position in his second letter to those Thessalonians,

2Thess 1
6 For after all it is only right for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted, along with us, when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God, and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These people will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified among His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—because our testimony to you was believed.


1Thess 4
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

 

[The Light]

I am accustomed to people debating back and forth about this particular date for the resurrection of Christ, whether AD 30, or AD 33, or other years. At the moment, pinpointing this year is not a critical point for what we are discussing, so I won't go there. But it was most definitely called a "harvest" of the saints' bodies out of the grave in Revelation 14:14-16.

I used to be a 33 until I discovered it was wrong.

Yes, Christ was called the "First-fruits", but the 144,000 were ALSO called "First-fruits" in Rev. 14:4, who stood with the Lamb on Mount Zion - literally standing in the city of Jerusalem where the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints were seen by many on the day of Christ's resurrection. Both Christ and the 144,000 (the Matt. 27:52-53 saints) all shared the same title of the "First-fruits" because they all shared the experience of being the first mass group to be resurrected out of the grave that same day during Passover week. Two more mass group bodily resurrection events would follow, one of which took place on AD 70's Pentecost day.

No harvest has taken place. I'm not sure where you get that there has been a harvest.

Sure, I can provide this, and it synchronizes with Christ's own prediction of when He would return in the glory of His Father with the holy angels, to give rewards to everyone according to their works. Christ said His second-coming return would happen while some of those He was speaking to in Matthew 16:27-28 were still alive in that first century generation.

The problem is the second coming occurs at the 6th seal as marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars. The seals are not opened and will not be opened until the Church is in heaven. Jesus tells us he comes quickly in Rev 3 so He did not come in 70AD

Revelation 3
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

What Jesus referring to in Luke 9 was that John would have a Revelation about Jesus and His coming before He died. Hence, the book of Revelation.

Given the natural lifespan of mankind, an AD 70 second coming return of Christ is entirely within the expected range of Christ's prediction in Matt. 16:27-28. If they were a young adult, it was entirely possible that some hearing Christ's words at that time would live to see Christ's return and the events in AD 70 transpiring.

Christ never came in 70AD. We see in the Book of Revelation that He has not come yet.

Daniel gave the exact countdown to that resurrection day in Daniel 12:11-13. Daniel gave two signs to look for (which Christ again highlighted in the Olivet Discourse). These two distinct events would occur within the same season of time. For one sign, there would be what Daniel termed "the abomination of desolation" (which "abomination of desolation" Luke 21:20 interprets for us as "Jerusalem surrounded by armies"). For the other sign occurring in the same season of time, there would be a time when a daily sacrifice was taken away.

Both of these two events occurred together in the same summer season of AD 66. First, Eleazar the temple's governor organized the removal of the daily sacrifice which until then had been given for the Roman empire and its emperor. Eleazar also forbad the acceptance of any sacrifices brought to the temple by foreigners. This broke the agreement between Rome and Israel which had allowed Israel to practice Judaism as a "religio licita" - one of the state-approved religions of the empire. This was an overt act of war, and Nero responded accordingly. The Roman-occupied Masada fortress was also taken by the Jews at this time, as well as the garrison of Roman troops at the Fortress of Antonia being slaughtered.

This rebellious act of provocation with Eleazar taking away the temple's daily sacrifice for the Roman empire and its emperor resulted in Nero sending Cestius Gallus to surround Jerusalem with a Roman army in AD 66. Gallus's Roman troops battled their way into Jerusalem and made contact with the temple gate, which they were preparing to undermine in October of AD 66 (the abomination "standing where it ought not"). This occasion was the beginning of Daniel's 1,335-day countdown to a resurrection at Christ's return.

We are told that for no reason whatever, Cestius Gallus decided to withdraw his army from Jerusalem at that point, when he no doubt could have pressed his advantage and taken the city within the week. God designed this unexplainable withdrawal of Gallus's Roman troops for an important reason: it gave any believers present within the city of Jerusalem at that time a brief couple of days to flee from Jerusalem and head for the mountains (as Christ had warned them to do back in Luke 21:20-21, when they saw "Jerusalem surrounded by armies"). After those couple of days, the Zealot armies would return to Jerusalem from their victory over Cestius Gallus' troops and lock the gates to prevent anyone escaping from the city.

Daniel then wrote that 1,290 days of this 1,335-day period would pass. Coincidentally, this set period of 1,290 days ended 5 days after Passover week had started in AD 70, when once again the Roman army showed up to surround Jerusalem and besiege the city under the leadership of Titus. From this 1,290th day when Titus had set up his army around Jerusalem, there was the final period of 45 more days that would pass until Pentecost day in AD 70. Daniel was promised the blessing of participating in this resurrection at the end of those 1,335 days. This Pentecost day resurrection at Christ's second coming return in AD 70 falls within the time requirement of Christ's prediction - that He would return before some of those He was then speaking to in Matthew 16:27-28 had yet died.

These two fulfilled bodily resurrection events taking place at Passover and at Pentecost day will be followed by yet another third bodily resurrection at Christ's return in our future, at the time when the Feast of Tabernacles would ordinarily have been celebrated (in the 7th month of the year). It will not be soon.

Thanks for the detailed explanation. However, Christ has not returned and will not return until He comes for His Church. Then part of Israel will have its blindness removed. Then the first fruits and then they that are Christs at His at the last trump blown on the feast of Trumpets. Then after the wrath of God, the Feast of Tabernacles.

You are correct that there will be three comings, but incorrect that any have occurred.

 

[The Light]

Not so.

Yes so. The Lord himself comes for the Church. Then at the 6th seal the Lord sends His angels to gather the elect form heaven and earth. Two separate comings.

Paul actually believes that the Lord comes with his Angels.

He clarifies his position in his second letter to those Thessalonians,

2Thess 1
6 For after all it is only right for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted, along with us, when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God, and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These people will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified among His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—because our testimony to you was believed.

What you are not understanding is that the above have absolutely nothing to do with 1 Thes 4 which is when the Lord comes for His Church.

What you say above also has nothing to do with the Lord sending His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth which is the second coming.

The verses you post have to do with the wrath of God which is seen here. It has nothing to do with the two raptures.

Revelation 19
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

 

[The Light]

When are the dead and living in Christ caught up to the Lord?​

…at the 7th trump— after the AC has come and done his abominations.

Nice statement. Do you have any scripture to support this?

 

[The Light]

No, I’m just not trying to read something into that which is not there, like you. Both are gathered together at the same time, more proof….

Matthew 25:31-41​

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King James Version​

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31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:”

Matthew 13:47-50​

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King James Version​

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47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 13:28-30​

King James Version​

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28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.”

All the words of God agree.

Matthew 13:30
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.”

So if the wheat and tares are gathered at the same time as you now claim how is that the Word tells us that the tares are gathered first?

So your claim does agree with the Word of God.

Time to fess up and realize that your claims do not agree with the Word of God.,

 

[jeffweeder]

What you are not understanding is that the above have absolutely nothing to do with 1 Thes 4 which is when the Lord comes for His Church.

I understand that Paul didn't start referring to some other coming he told them about in the previous letter.

2Thess 2
2 Now we ask you, brothers and sisters, regarding the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit, or a message, or a letter as if from us to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.


That would be regarding the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ he taught them about in his first letter.... surely.
You are the one that would have disturbed them about the possibility of an alternate coming.
There is no other alternative, just what he taught them in his first letter... Agree?

 

[honeycomb]

I used to be a 33 until I discovered it was wrong.


No harvest has taken place. I'm not sure where you get that there has been a harvest.


The problem is the second coming occurs at the 6th seal as marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars.The seals are not opened and will not be opened until the Church is in heaven. Jesus tells us he comes quickly in Rev 3 so He did not come in 70AD

Revelation 3
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

What Jesus referring to in Luke 9 was that John would have a Revelation about Jesus and His coming before He died. Hence, the book of Revelation.



Christ never came in 70AD. We see in the Book of Revelation that He has not come yet.

Thanks for the detailed explanation. However, Christ has not returned and will not return until He comes for His Church. Then part of Israel will have its blindness removed. Then the first fruits and then they that are Christs at His at the last trump blown on the feast of Trumpets. Then after the wrath of God, the Feast of Tabernacles.

You are correct that there will be three comings, but incorrect that any have occurred.

Hi… I highlighted in blue what I want to discuss with you; hope that’s okay.

Three comings? No, just two.

It is Satan, not Christ, that is described in the 6th seal. Remember that Satan will imitate Christ in everything he does.
And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

- Revelation 6:12-13

The true Christ, the King of kings and Lord of lords, comes in the 7th seal, chapter 8.
……..

Also, the seals are already open. God has revealed the seals to us in the book of Revelation, chapter 6 and 8. As you know, Revelation means to reveal, to unveil. What was John told in Revelation 10:8?
Then the voice which I heard from heaven spoke to me again and said, "Go, take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel who stands on the sea and on the earth."

- Revelation 10:8

_____
PEtRA

 

[honeycomb]

Here is the 7th Seal:
And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets. And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand. And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake. And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound. The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up. And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed. And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter. And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise. And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

- Revelation 8 (KJV)

 

[honeycomb]

Nice statement. Do you have any scripture to support this?

As a matter of fact, I do.

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

- 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 (KJV)


—PEtRA

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

Do you not believe that Christ is the first resurrection, who by His life suffered the judgment of God for the sins of His people (elect)?

That verse is not talking about being born again of the Spirit, it is talking about the physical resurrection of those who are in Christ at the last day.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

Matthew 13:30
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.”

So if the wheat and tares are gathered at the same time as you now claim how is that the Word tells us that the tares are gathered first?

So your claim does agree with the Word of God.

Time to fess up and realize that your claims do not agree with the Word of God.,

The tares are “Bound first”for to get ready “to”Burn them

Gather ye together first the tares, and “bind them”in bundles “to”burn them

Psalm 149:8-9

King James Version

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8 To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron;
9 To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the Lord.

 

[rwb]

That verse is not talking about being born again of the Spirit, it is talking about the physical resurrection of those who are in Christ at the last day.

If that is true you should be able to show this from the Word of God. But you cannot, because John is given us to understand that faithful saints are still alive in heaven after physical death and are a spiritual body of believers there. Because NONE shall be bodily resurrected to life until the hour coming when the last trumpet sounds, and time given this earth for man to be saved shall be no longer.

If we desire to have immortal & incorruptible body of flesh, fit for everlasting life on the new earth, we MUST before we die partake of resurrection life through the Holy Spirit. Because just as the Father has life in Himself, He has also given His Son to have life through Him. This life is not physical, but the spiritual life we receive when we have been born again. Only those who have been given eternal life through the Spirit of Christ shall have immortal & incorruptible life with Him forever on the new earth.

John 5:24-26 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

Nowhere in Scripture can we find that martyred saints are resurrected bodily to live and reign with Christ on THIS earth.

 

[The Light]

I understand that Paul didn't start referring to some other coming he told them about in the previous letter.

2Thess 2
2 Now we ask you, brothers and sisters, regarding the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit, or a message, or a letter as if from us to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.


That would be regarding the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ he taught them about in his first letter.... surely.
You are the one that would have disturbed them about the possibility of an alternate coming.
There is no other alternative, just what he taught them in his first letter... Agree?

2Thess 2
2 Now we ask you, brothers and sisters, regarding the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit, or a message, or a letter as if from us to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.

You are leaving all the qualifying information out. AND OUR GATHERING TO TOGETHER TO HIM.

Mark 13
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Paul is saying that they are not in the day of the Lord. Paul tells them before the second coming (which occurs at the 6th seal) and the gathering from heaven and earth there must be a falling away the man of sin must be revealed. Don't be concerned, you are not in the day of the Lord.

2 Thes 2
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

If that is true you should be able to show this from the Word of God. But you cannot, because John is given us to understand that faithful saints are still alive in heaven after physical death and are a spiritual body of believers there. Because NONE shall be bodily resurrected to life until the hour coming when the last trumpet sounds, and time given this earth for man to be saved shall be no longer.

If we desire to have immortal & incorruptible body of flesh, fit for everlasting life on the new earth, we MUST before we die partake of resurrection life through the Holy Spirit. Because just as the Father has life in Himself, He has also given His Son to have life through Him. This life is not physical, but the spiritual life we receive when we have been born again. Only those who have been given eternal life through the Spirit of Christ shall have immortal & incorruptible life with Him forever on the new earth.

John 5:24-26 (KJV) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

Nowhere in Scripture can we find that martyred saints are resurrected bodily to live and reign with Christ on THIS earth.

12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

 

[The Light]

Hi… I highlighted in blue what I want to discuss with you; hope that’s okay.

Sure. No worries.

Three comings? No, just two.

It is Satan, not Christ, that is described in the 6th seal. Remember that Satan will imitate Christ in everything he does.
And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

- Revelation 6:12-13

The true Christ, the King of kings and Lord of lords, comes in the 7th seal, chapter 8.

Nope. Christ comes for His Church. He then comes for the second harvest at the sixth seal which is the gathering from heaven and earth.

You ought to be able to tell from the info below that Christ returns at the sixth seal. It is the second coming when all eyes see the coming of the Lord. He will remain in the clouds and gather the elect from heaven and earth. This is marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars.

Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

……..

Also, the seals are already open.

There is not a chance those seals are opened. The first 4 seals are the beginning of sorrows. The 5th seal is the great tribulation and the 6th seal is the second coming and second harvest before the Day of the Lord.........the day of vengeance.

God has revealed the seals to us in the book of Revelation, chapter 6 and 8. As you know, Revelation means to reveal, to unveil. What was John told in Revelation 10:8?
Then the voice which I heard from heaven spoke to me again and said, "Go, take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel who stands on the sea and on the earth."

- Revelation 10:8

_____
PEtRA

It's a vision. John took the book from the angel and ate it so he could prophesy more as the angel told Him too. These are prophesies.