Oops, the Deacon's Son is Gay

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Lambano

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The 2021 NRSV Updated Edition has the following footnotes on this verse:

malakos "Meaning of GK uncertain"
arsenokoites "Meaning of GK uncertain"
If anyone is interested in the derivation of these translations...

Malakoi (literally "soft ones")
The word malakoi is not a technical term meaning "homosexuals" (no such term existed either in Greek or in Hebrew), but it appears often in Hellenistic Greek as pejorative slang to describe the "passive" partners-often young boys-in homosexual activity. -Richard Hays, The Moral Vision of the New Testament

Thayer's cites the works of Dionysius Halicarnassus and Diogenes Laërtius as using malakos this way.

Arsenokoites: From arsen (a man) and koite (from which the English word "coitus" is derived; "a bed"). Literally, "man-coitus-er" or "man-bedder".

The word, arsenokoitai., is not found in any extant Greek text earlier than I Corinthians. Some scholars have suggested that its meaning is uncertain, but Robin Scroggs has shown that the word is a translation of the Hebrew mishkav zakur ("lying with the male), derived directly from Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 and used in rabbinic texts to refer to homosexual intercourse. The Septuagint (Greek Old Testament) of Leviticus 20:13 reads, "Whoever lies with a man as with a woman [meta arsenos koiten gynaikos], they have both done an abomination." -Richard Hays, The Moral Vision of the New Testament

So, Paul coined the term himself, echoing the language of Leviticus. Given Paul's background as a devout Jewish Pharisee, this shouldn't be the least bit surprising.

Anyway, we're just talking about what words mean and where they come from.
 
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Taken

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Oops, the Deacon's Son is Gay

First of all, I equate “GAY” with “joyful” and not exclusive to “homosexuals”.

Secondly…Every individual has the God given RIGHT to think, believe, do and he desires.

Thirdly…Every individual has the God given RIGHT to EMBRACE, SUPPORT, TOLERATE…
Godly and unGodly behaviors of other men…
OR
REJECT, NOT EMBRACE, NOT SUPPORT, NOT TOLERATE Godly and unGodly behaviors of other men.

Fourthly…BY WHICH means an Individual Freely Chooses his own Behavior and an others rejection or tolerance…
YOU WILL KNOW THEM by their fruits .

The Godly WILL consider the Lords teaching, warnings and yoking with the unGodly regarding the matter at hand.

The unGodly WILL have no consideration of the Lords teaching, warnings and yoking with others.
 
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Arthur81

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If anyone is interested in the derivation of these translations...

Malakoi (literally "soft ones")


Thayer's cites the works of Dionysius Halicarnassus and Diogenes Laërtius as using malakos this way.

Arsenokoites: From arsen (a man) and koite (from which the English word "coitus" is derived; "a bed"). Literally, "man-coitus-er" or "man-bedder".



So, Paul coined the term himself, echoing the language of Leviticus. Given Paul's background as a devout Jewish Pharisee, this shouldn't be the least bit surprising.

Anyway, we're just talking about what words mean and where they come from.
You need to keep up with how even Biblical scholars continue to learn and change their mind, as the author you quoted did on LGBTQ.

Theologian Richard B. Hays changed his mind and then taught 'inclusion'. We may not like how he speaks of God changing his mind, he at least corrected a serious error he previous held. Check out a couple of web sites addressing this question on LGBTQ's


 

Arthur81

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The Greek English Lexicons do NOT define the two words in question as homosexuals, or males in a loving relationship with each other. I'll give the full definitions, and the BDAG is the most modern and highly respected Lexicon.

A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 3rd Edition, BDAG. Copyright 2000c

From the Foreword: "Extended definitions are given in bold roman and may be followed by one or more formal equivalents in bold italics."

ἀρσενοκοίτης [arsenokoites], ου, ὁ (ἄρσην ‘male’ + κοίτη ‘bed’; Bardesanes 719 fgm. 3b 10, 25 p. 653 Jac. [in Eus., PE 6, 10, 25]; Anth. Pal. 9, 686, 5 and Cat. Cod. Astr. VIII/4 p. 196, 6 and 8 have the sp. ἀρρενοκοίτης; Theoph. Ant. 1, 2 [p. 60, 27]; in a vice list—ἀρσενοκοιτεῖν SibOr 2, 73; AcJ 36 [Aa II/1, 169]; cp. the association of ἄρσην and κοίτη Lev 20:13, s. Soph. Lex.: ἀ.= ὁ μετὰ ἄρσενος κοιμώμενος κοίτην γυναικείαν=‘one who has intercourse w. a man as w. a woman’; cp. the formation of μητροκοίτης [μήτηρ + κοίτη] ‘one who has intercourse w. his mother’ Hipponax 15, 2 Diehl3 [=Degani 20, 2]) a male who engages in sexual activity w. a pers. of his own sex, pederast 1 Cor 6:9 (on the impropriety of RSV’s ‘homosexuals’ [altered to ‘sodomites’ NRSV] s. WPetersen, VigChr 40, ’86, 187–91; cp. DWright, ibid. 41, ’87, 396–98; REB’s rendering of μαλακοὶ οὔτε ἀρσενοκοῖται w. the single term ‘sexual pervert’ is lexically unacceptable), of one who assumes the dominant role in same-sex activity, opp. μαλακός (difft. DMartin, in Biblical Ethics and Homosexuality, ed. RBrawley, ’96, 117–36); 1 Ti 1:10; Pol 5:3. Cp. Ro 1:27. Romans forbade pederasty w. free boys in the Lex Scantinia, pre-Cicero (JBremmer, Arethusa 13, ’80, 288 and notes); Paul’s strictures against same-sex activity cannot be satisfactorily explained on the basis of alleged temple prostitution (on its rarity, but w. some evidence concerning women used for sacred prostitution at Corinth s. LWoodbury, TAPA 108, ’78, 290f, esp. note 18 [lit.]), or limited to contract w. boys for homoerotic service (s. Wright, VigChr 38, ’84, 125–53). For condemnation of the practice in the Euphrates region s. the ref. to Bardesanes above.—RBurton, The Book of the Thousand Nights and a Night, 1934, vol. 6, 3748–82, lit. reff. and anthropological data relating to a variety of Mediterranean cultures; DBailey, Homosexuality and the Western Christian Tradition, ’55; KDover, Greek Homosexuality ’78; RScroggs, The NT and Homosexuality ’83; JBoswell, Christianity, Social Tolerance, and Homosexuality ’80; JBremmer, Greek Pederasty, in JBremmer, ed. From Sappho to de Sade2 ’91, 1–14; ECantarella, Bisexuality in the Ancient World ’92.—Pauly-W. 8, 1333f; 1459–68. DELG s.v. ἄρσην. M-M.

Notice my underlined section: The RSV translation as "homosexuals" was as Merriam-Webster defines 'impropriety', "an improper or indecorous act or remark especially: an unacceptable use of a word or of language"; so the single word definition of "sodomites" in the NRSV is acceptable. It is opposed to the Greek μαλακός [if one accepts μαλακός as sexual conduct, which not all do].

!! It is clear the BDAG is okay with the NRSV translation as "sodomites", but the use of "homosexuals" is improper, unacceptable.

μαλακός [malakos] 2 pert. to being passive in a same-sex relationship, effeminate esp. of catamites, of men and boys who are sodomized by other males in such a relationship, opp. ἀρσενοκοίτης (Dionys. Hal. 7, 2, 4; Dio Chrys. 49 [66], 25; Ptolem., Apotel. 3, 15, 10; Vett. Val. 113, 22; Diog. L. 7, 173; PHib 54, 11 [c. 245 B.C.] may have this mng.: a musician called Zenobius ὁ μαλακός [prob. with a sideline, according to Dssm., LO 131, 4—LAE 164, 4]. S. also a Macedon. ins in LDuchesne and CBayet, Mémoire sur une Mission au Mont Athos 1876 no. 66 p. 46; Plautus, Miles 668 cinaedus [Gk. κίναιδος] malacus; cp. the atttack on the morality of submissive homoeroticism Aeschin. 1, 188; DCohen, Greece and Rome 23, ’76, 181f) 1 Cor 6:9 (‘male prostitutes’ NRSV is too narrow a rendering; ‘sexual pervert’ REB is too broad)=Pol 5:3.—S. lit. s.v. ἀρσενοκοίτης. B. 1065. DELG. M-M.

If as the underlined shows, if one accepts malakos as sexual, like a catamite, the word is one of men and boys who are sodomized by other males! So the BDAG sees the word meaning they were sodomized by the "sodomites", and to be sodomized is to be subjected to an act of sodomy, especially forcibly. Yet, the BDAG gives effeminate as the formal equivalent. Neither 'arsenokoites' or 'malakos' can be used to condemn a mutually acceptable, loving gay relationship, PERIOD.

Not all Greek scholars even agree that malakos refers to a sexual relationship!


From the 1940 Liddell-Scott-Jones as can be read online, see -

The Greek of 'malakos' -
*There is no ''catamite" or any sort of 'homosexual' in that huge definition!

The 19th Century Greek scholar Heinrich H Meyer:
"μαλακοί] effeminates, commonly understood as qui muliebria patiuntur, but with no sufficient evidence from the usage of the language (the passages in Wetstein and Kypke, even Dion. Hal. vii. 2, do not prove the point); moreover, such catamites (molles) were called πόρνοι or κίναιδοι. One does not see, moreover, why precisely this sin should be mentioned twice over in different aspects. Rather therefore: effeminate luxurious livers. Comp Aristotle, Eth. vii. 7 : μαλακὸς καὶ τρυφῶν, Xen. Mem. ii. 1, 20, also μαλακῶς, iii. 11. 10 : τρυφὴ δὲ καὶ μαλθακία, Plato, Rep. p. 590 B."

The Expositor's Greek Testament:
"μαλακοί , soft, voluptuous , appears in this connexion to signify general addiction to sins of the flesh; lexical ground is wanting for the sense of pathici , suggested to some interpreters by the following word and by the use of molles in Latin."

I've given the FULL definitions of the sources quoted, not just a particular line or sentence out of context! Take the time to read carefully, it sure did take me time to write this!
 

Dan Clarkston

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Oops, the Deacon's Son is gay

When he found this out... the deacon started freakin!


I see, so the Deacon's son chose, made a decision, to be attracted to and love only other males?

Yes, he in fact made that decision after some demon came by and brought the thought to him in the first person (as though it was his thought) that he liked males instead of females.


Do you remember making a decision about, or choosing your sexual orientation?

Yes I did. I can remember as far back as 1st and 2nd grade thinking those girls show be looking good!

Then I learned that boys have an outtie and girls have an innie... so the equipment that boys have was intended to fit the equipment the girls have.


Since Adam, man has not lived in a perfect world so to compare the created design in Eden to what exists today is not a proper comparison.

Thank you for admitting that being gay is a perversion.


God's Word teaches that the Lord does not accept gayness, so I hope you repent soon!


The web site Webmd.com gives a very brief current understanding of sexual orientation

Yes it does... from satan's viewpoint that supports the funny people
 

Dan Clarkston

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What did the scenario state about the Deacon's son? The boy said "I have never had such feelings for a female, and in fact I find it repulsive to imagine sexual intercourse with a female."

There we have it folks!

Rejecting what the Lord says in favor of what someone thinks they want.

This is one of the devil's tricks to get people to turn away from the Lord and serve self.
 

Jack

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What did the scenario state about the Deacon's son? The boy said "I have never had such feelings for a female, and in fact I find it repulsive to imagine sexual intercourse with a female."

The Deacon's son was NEVER in any M-F relationship mentally or physically, from which to leave or forsake. Check the Robertson's Word Pictures, v27 is the only place in the NT that the Greek for "burned" and "lust" are to be found. Paul is describing what a Greek philosopher in Paul's day stated, and it is abundantly clear -

From the Greek philosopher Dio Chrysostom (40-110 AD) in The Seventh or Euboean Discourse

Phrasing lifted from text numbered 133 through 152, or do a "Find on Page", Ctrl-F

"In dealing with brothel-keepers and their trade we must certainly betray no weakness as though something were to be said on both sides, but must sternly forbid them...Such men bring individuals together in union without love and intercourse without affection, and all for the sake of filthy lucre...For evils are never wont to remain as they are; they are ever active and advancing to greater wantonness if they meet no compelling check...Indeed, beginning with practices and habits that seem trivial and allowable, it acquires a strength and force that are uncontrollable, and no longer stops at anything...Now at this point we must assuredly remember that this adultery committed with outcasts, so evident in our midst and becoming so brazen and unchecked, is to a very great extent paving the way to hidden and secret assaults upon the chastity of women and boys of good family...The man whose appetite is insatiate in such things, when he finds there is no scarcity, no resistance, in this field, will have contempt for the easy conquest and scorn for a woman's love, as a thing too readily given — in fact, too utterly feminine — and will turn his assault against the male quarters, eager to befoul the youth who will very soon be magistrates and judges and generals, believing that in them he will find a kind of pleasure difficult and hard to procure. His state is like that of men who are addicted to drinking and wine-bibbing, who after long and steady drinking of unmixed wine, often lose their taste for it and create an artificial thirst by the stimulus of sweatings, salted foods, and condiments."

The sin in v27 is the all-consuming lust!
Jesus said gays are heading for Hell! I believe Him.
 

Arthur81

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Oops, the Deacon's Son is Gay

First of all, I equate “GAY” with “joyful” and not exclusive to “homosexuals”.

Secondly…Every individual has the God given RIGHT to think, believe, do and he desires.

Thirdly…Every individual has the God given RIGHT to EMBRACE, SUPPORT, TOLERATE…
Godly and unGodly behaviors of other men…
OR
REJECT, NOT EMBRACE, NOT SUPPORT, NOT TOLERATE Godly and unGodly behaviors of other men.

Fourthly…BY WHICH means an Individual Freely Chooses his own Behavior and an others rejection or tolerance…
YOU WILL KNOW THEM by their fruits .

The Godly WILL consider the Lords teaching, warnings and yoking with the unGodly regarding the matter at hand.

The unGodly WILL have no consideration of the Lords teaching, warnings and yoking with others.
You seem to be going around in circles. Make a plain statement of belief upon scripture and show how it helps to understand the Christian male who happens to love only other males. What are the "fruits" by which we are known? Define the broad term "unGodly behaviors" as it fits this thread. What are the "Lords teachings" about the topic of this thread. Sorry, but your post sound pious but says absolutely nothing of substance about this topic!
 

PS95

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The scenario, the young man is said to be cohabiting with another young man. When questioned by the Pastor, the young man replies, "If it is any of your business, I have always been attracted to other males, emotionally, romantically and sexually. I have never had such feelings for a female, and in fact I find it repulsive to imagine sexual intercourse with a female. Now, God himself said it was not good that man be alone, so who are you to condemn me? Is there any verse that condemns me for this loving relationship? NO!"

By what authority does anyone possess to claim ability to read the mind of the young man and tell him it was his choice, and he can change by choosing. What use is it to blather on about LGBTQ, gays, or active and passive homosexuality? No one knows why 3-4% or so of males have this loving attraction. By what right does anyone tell him he needs to be cured, or that he needs a conversion by God, to love females? Frankly, such judging appears to be forbidden by God's word.

It is only our own spirit within us that knows all about us; in the same way, only God's Spirit knows all about God. (1Cor 2:11 GNB92)

The heart knows its own bitterness, and in its joy a stranger has no part. (Prov 14:10 REB)

The heart is devious above all else; it is perverse— who can understand it? (Jer 17:9 NRSV) *The heart of the one judging is devious too!

A person’s whole conduct may be right in his own eyes, but the Lord weighs up his motives. (Prov 21:2 REB)

None of us can see our own errors; deliver me, LORD, from hidden faults! (Ps 19:12 GNB92)

Make it your aim to live a quiet life, to mind your own business, and to earn your own living, just as we told you before. (1Thess 4:11 GNB92)

If you suffer, it must not be because you are a murderer or a thief or a criminal or a meddler in other people's affairs. (1Pet 4:15 GNB92)

“Do not judge others, so that God will not judge you, for God will judge you in the same way you judge others, and he will apply to you the same rules you apply to others. Why, then, do you look at the speck in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the log in your own eye? (Matt 7:1-3 GNB92)
Thayer - to pronounce judgment; to subject to censure; of those who judge severely (unfairly), finding fault with this or that in others, Mat 7:1; Luk 6:37; Rom 2:1; τινα, Rom 2:1; Rom 2:3; Rom 14:3, 10,13

Who are you to judge the servants of someone else? It is their own Master who will decide whether they succeed or fail. And they will succeed, because the Lord is able to make them succeed. (Rom 14:4 GNB92)

God is the only lawgiver and judge. He alone can save and destroy. Who do you think you are, to judge someone else? (Jas 4:12 GNB92) Thayer - hence equivalent to to condemn: Rom 2:27; Jas 4:11 f.

Arthur, You cant be serious.
Sexual immorality is condemned in the scriptures. It's not fuzzy, it's crystal clear.
Fornication, pedophilia, incest, adultery, rape, beastiality, homosexuality, and whatever else there is aside from sex within a marriage of a man and a woman is an abomination to God. It is all immorality. Paul made it clear.
It doesnt matter if it how someone FEELS. A pedophile feels that ever since he was young he was attracted to young boys. You can justify any or all if you want to, by "feeling". That's lust of the flesh. It's out of God's design and will for us. Period.
What other sin you want us to condone? Not gonna happen. But what's next, I ask you? We should condone all sins? Or just the ones you choose? C'mon Arthur, you know better.
We are to judge inside the church.
 
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Taken

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You seem to be going around in circles.

Making statements of facts, is not going in circles.

Make a plain statement of belief upon scripture

Already have, numerous times.

and show how it helps to understand the Christian male who happens to love only other males.

The God I know loves everyone and teaches everyone to love everyone…
So, no clue what exception you think Scripture has revealed and the understanding thereof.

What are the "fruits" by which we are known?

Results of a mans behaviors, according to fixed Standards and Principles.

Define the broad term "unGodly behaviors" as it fits this thread.

Behaviors that do not Glorify God.

What are the "Lords teachings" about the topic of this thread.

This topic…IF oops…Then Correct
This topic…Deacons son…son a reflection of father.
This topic…son gay…son happy
This topic…Society fixed standard…gay = homosexual.
This topic…sexual encounters…Godly…private..unflaunted…willing male & female.

This topic…Society standard…homosexual…
Pridefully Flaunt…Advocate…Encourage…
Disgusting.

Sorry, but your post sound pious but says absolutely nothing of substance about this topic!

So? This platform does not come with authority to dictate an others opinions.

Make a plain statement of belief upon scripture and show how it helps to understand the Christian male who happens to love only other males.

You seem to be going around in circles.

I obliged your rude DEMAND.
I read your irrelevant OPINIONS.
I don’t know you.
 

Arthur81

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The Greek English Lexicons do NOT define the two words in question as homosexuals, or males in a loving relationship with each other. I'll give the full definitions, and the BDAG is the most modern and highly respected Lexicon.

A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 3rd Edition, BDAG. Copyright 2000c

From the Foreword: "Extended definitions are given in bold roman and may be followed by one or more formal equivalents in bold italics."

ἀρσενοκοίτης [arsenokoites], ου, ὁ (ἄρσην ‘male’ + κοίτη ‘bed’; Bardesanes 719 fgm. 3b 10, 25 p. 653 Jac. [in Eus., PE 6, 10, 25]; Anth. Pal. 9, 686, 5 and Cat. Cod. Astr. VIII/4 p. 196, 6 and 8 have the sp. ἀρρενοκοίτης; Theoph. Ant. 1, 2 [p. 60, 27]; in a vice list—ἀρσενοκοιτεῖν SibOr 2, 73; AcJ 36 [Aa II/1, 169]; cp. the association of ἄρσην and κοίτη Lev 20:13, s. Soph. Lex.: ἀ.= ὁ μετὰ ἄρσενος κοιμώμενος κοίτην γυναικείαν=‘one who has intercourse w. a man as w. a woman’; cp. the formation of μητροκοίτης [μήτηρ + κοίτη] ‘one who has intercourse w. his mother’ Hipponax 15, 2 Diehl3 [=Degani 20, 2]) a male who engages in sexual activity w. a pers. of his own sex, pederast 1 Cor 6:9 (on the impropriety of RSV’s ‘homosexuals’ [altered to ‘sodomites’ NRSV] s. WPetersen, VigChr 40, ’86, 187–91; cp. DWright, ibid. 41, ’87, 396–98; REB’s rendering of μαλακοὶ οὔτε ἀρσενοκοῖται w. the single term ‘sexual pervert’ is lexically unacceptable), of one who assumes the dominant role in same-sex activity, opp. μαλακός (difft. DMartin, in Biblical Ethics and Homosexuality, ed. RBrawley, ’96, 117–36); 1 Ti 1:10; Pol 5:3. Cp. Ro 1:27. Romans forbade pederasty w. free boys in the Lex Scantinia, pre-Cicero (JBremmer, Arethusa 13, ’80, 288 and notes); Paul’s strictures against same-sex activity cannot be satisfactorily explained on the basis of alleged temple prostitution (on its rarity, but w. some evidence concerning women used for sacred prostitution at Corinth s. LWoodbury, TAPA 108, ’78, 290f, esp. note 18 [lit.]), or limited to contract w. boys for homoerotic service (s. Wright, VigChr 38, ’84, 125–53). For condemnation of the practice in the Euphrates region s. the ref. to Bardesanes above.—RBurton, The Book of the Thousand Nights and a Night, 1934, vol. 6, 3748–82, lit. reff. and anthropological data relating to a variety of Mediterranean cultures; DBailey, Homosexuality and the Western Christian Tradition, ’55; KDover, Greek Homosexuality ’78; RScroggs, The NT and Homosexuality ’83; JBoswell, Christianity, Social Tolerance, and Homosexuality ’80; JBremmer, Greek Pederasty, in JBremmer, ed. From Sappho to de Sade2 ’91, 1–14; ECantarella, Bisexuality in the Ancient World ’92.—Pauly-W. 8, 1333f; 1459–68. DELG s.v. ἄρσην. M-M.

Notice my underlined section: The RSV translation as "homosexuals" was as Merriam-Webster defines 'impropriety', "an improper or indecorous act or remark especially: an unacceptable use of a word or of language"; so the single word definition of "sodomites" in the NRSV is acceptable. It is opposed to the Greek μαλακός [if one accepts μαλακός as sexual conduct, which not all do].

!! It is clear the BDAG is okay with the NRSV translation as "sodomites", but the use of "homosexuals" is improper, unacceptable.

μαλακός [malakos] 2 pert. to being passive in a same-sex relationship, effeminate esp. of catamites, of men and boys who are sodomized by other males in such a relationship, opp. ἀρσενοκοίτης (Dionys. Hal. 7, 2, 4; Dio Chrys. 49 [66], 25; Ptolem., Apotel. 3, 15, 10; Vett. Val. 113, 22; Diog. L. 7, 173; PHib 54, 11 [c. 245 B.C.] may have this mng.: a musician called Zenobius ὁ μαλακός [prob. with a sideline, according to Dssm., LO 131, 4—LAE 164, 4]. S. also a Macedon. ins in LDuchesne and CBayet, Mémoire sur une Mission au Mont Athos 1876 no. 66 p. 46; Plautus, Miles 668 cinaedus [Gk. κίναιδος] malacus; cp. the atttack on the morality of submissive homoeroticism Aeschin. 1, 188; DCohen, Greece and Rome 23, ’76, 181f) 1 Cor 6:9 (‘male prostitutes’ NRSV is too narrow a rendering; ‘sexual pervert’ REB is too broad)=Pol 5:3.—S. lit. s.v. ἀρσενοκοίτης. B. 1065. DELG. M-M.

If as the underlined shows, if one accepts malakos as sexual, like a catamite, the word is one of men and boys who are sodomized by other males! So the BDAG sees the word meaning they were sodomized by the "sodomites", and to be sodomized is to be subjected to an act of sodomy, especially forcibly. Yet, the BDAG gives effeminate as the formal equivalent. Neither 'arsenokoites' or 'malakos' can be used to condemn a mutually acceptable, loving gay relationship, PERIOD.

Not all Greek scholars even agree that malakos refers to a sexual relationship!


From the 1940 Liddell-Scott-Jones as can be read online, see -

The Greek of 'malakos' -
*There is no ''catamite" or any sort of 'homosexual' in that huge definition!

The 19th Century Greek scholar Heinrich H Meyer:
"μαλακοί] effeminates, commonly understood as qui muliebria patiuntur, but with no sufficient evidence from the usage of the language (the passages in Wetstein and Kypke, even Dion. Hal. vii. 2, do not prove the point); moreover, such catamites (molles) were called πόρνοι or κίναιδοι. One does not see, moreover, why precisely this sin should be mentioned twice over in different aspects. Rather therefore: effeminate luxurious livers. Comp Aristotle, Eth. vii. 7 : μαλακὸς καὶ τρυφῶν, Xen. Mem. ii. 1, 20, also μαλακῶς, iii. 11. 10 : τρυφὴ δὲ καὶ μαλθακία, Plato, Rep. p. 590 B."

The Expositor's Greek Testament:
"μαλακοί , soft, voluptuous , appears in this connexion to signify general addiction to sins of the flesh; lexical ground is wanting for the sense of pathici , suggested to some interpreters by the following word and by the use of molles in Latin."

I've given the FULL definitions of the sources quoted, not just a particular line or sentence out of context! Take the time to read carefully, it sure did take me time to write this!
For those having an IQ above 80, and are interested enough to read this thread objectively, I'll add this Reply to my earlier post.

The Evangelical scholars, even some who translate, conflate the words "homosexual" and "sodomite". Those are two words with different meanings, and most thinking people who have read up on it know this. I'll give a couple of recognized reference works to support what I am stating.

Roget's International Thesaurus, Eighth Edition, Revised and Updated, c2022, 1154 pages -

75.13 heterosexual, straight, breeder, cisgender
75.14 homosexual, gay person, homosexualist, homophile, invert; catamite; bisexual, bi-guy; lesbian, sapphist, ....

75.16 sexual pervert; pervert, perve, deviant, deviate, sex pervert, sex fiend, sex criminal, sex psychopath, sex addict; sick puppy; sodomist, sodomite, sob, bugger; pederast; paraphiliac;.....

*The semi-colon delimits the words closest in meaning, and these words separated by commas are usually interchangeable as synonyms. You will notice that "catamite" is set off by itself by semi-colons so it is not directly interchangeable with either "bisexual" or "homosexual". Merriam-Webster defines a catamite as "a boy kept by a pederast". That is NOT synonymous with homosexual.

See attachment to read full context in the Roget's.

The Merriam-Webster's definition of sodomite is interesting:
"often offensive : someone who practices sodomy —> used as a term of abuse and disparagement for a gay person"

The "new" revised Bible references can be misleading, or deceptive from the classic original. For instance,
The classic 1890 Strong's dictionary defines G733, arsenokoites as: "From G730 and G2845; a sodomite:—abuser of (that defile) self with mankind."

The M-Strong in theWord software defines G733, arsenokoites as: "a male homosexual, sodomite. [from G730 and G2845] KJV: abuser of (that defile) self with mankind"

Another example is the Literal Standard Version (LSV) supposed to be an update of the (YLT) but notice that the YLT translates arsenokoites as "sodomites" in both 1 Cor. 6:9 & 1 Tim. 1:10, and the LSV uses "sodomites" in 1 Cor. 6:9, but "homosexuals" in 1 Tim. 1:10.

The LSV uses "sodomites" in 1 Cor. 6:9 and then "homosexuals" in 1 Tim. 1:10. That is perverting standard English into a peculiar evangelical/fundamentalist English and that is misleading at best or deceptive at the worst because "homosexual" and "sodomite" are not synonyms!
 

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Arthur81

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Those persons in the churches who wish to use 1 Cor. 6:9 to condemn homosexuals to hell, had better learn the difference between a "sodomite" and a "homosexual", or it will be they who are seriously judged on the last day.

Does the scenario in the OP fit the description of a sodomite? No, it does not!

Can anyone give the verse that declares any sexual act outside of marriage to be sin? There is a lot of humanistic reasoning based on the created order, but what did Jesus say about the created order in this fallen world?

Mat 19:8-9 NRSVue "He said to them, 'It was because you were so hard-hearted that Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. 9 And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.'”

Divorce was not the design, the created order of Eden, but in some circumstances in a fallen world, Jesus indicates it is NOT sin. The same can be said for sexual conduct between two consenting, equal males. Sin is trespassing the law(1 Jn 3:4), not some concocted idea based on the perfection of the creation, or complementarianism. So, where is the verse giving stating the law condemning any sex outside of marriage as sin?
 

Arthur81

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Making statements of facts, is not going in circles.



Already have, numerous times.



The God I know loves everyone and teaches everyone to love everyone…
So, no clue what exception you think Scripture has revealed and the understanding thereof.



Results of a mans behaviors, according to fixed Standards and Principles.



Behaviors that do not Glorify God.



This topic…IF oops…Then Correct
This topic…Deacons son…son a reflection of father.
This topic…son gay…son happy
This topic…Society fixed standard…gay = homosexual.
This topic…sexual encounters…Godly…private..unflaunted…willing male & female.

This topic…Society standard…homosexual…
Pridefully Flaunt…Advocate…Encourage…
Disgusting.



So? This platform does not come with authority to dictate an others opinions.





I obliged your rude DEMAND.
I read your irrelevant OPINIONS.
I don’t know you.
I still do not see you showing your opinions are based squarely on the Scriptures. As far as I can see, not a single biblical reference is given by you. You write "I don't know you", and that is why I give source authorities, not my own individual opinion! I base my beliefs squarely on Scripture, and if any wish to show me where I have broken any law of interpretation on a verse, I'm open and willing to read it. I still learn things even at my age, so I'm open to learn more.
 
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Taken

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I still do not see you showing your opinions are based squarely on the Scriptures. As far as I can see, not a single biblical reference is given by you. You write "I don't know you", and that is why I give source authorities, not my own individual opinion! I base my beliefs squarely on Scripture, and if any wish to show me where I have broken any law of interpretation on a verse, I'm open and willing to read it. I still learn things even at my age, so I'm open to learn more.

My answer was sufficient…
Love everyone…IF you choose Gods WAY.

Engage in SEX with spouse of opposite gender…IF you choose Gods WAY.

Denounce, lend no support to TWO of the SAME Gender’s desire, acts to engage IN SEX…IF you choose Gods WAY.

Whatever YOU choose, YOU reap the Consequence. (Favorable or Unfavorable).

You want to READ, STUDY Gods view, Gods teaching, Gods approved word…on HomoSEXual behavior, yearning, choosing, lifestyle?

Not my job to read, study FOR you…

Here’s some suggestions…
Gen 2:24
Lev 18:22
Lev 20:13
Rom 1: 26-28
1 Cor 6:9-10
1 Cor 7:2
Mar 10: 6-9
Jude 1:7


Glory to God,
Taken
 

Arthur81

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Yes, my language shows my impatience and some 'righteous indignation' at the writings of many, and yes, I suppose it sometimes sounds rude. There is a reason for this.

When you have had to deal with this subject within the family, in concrete reality not in the abstract; it truly becomes a very serious matter for a Christian who has the family responsibility to teach. I am one that the family comes to often asking the biblical questions, and I mean even the extended family. So, I have had reason to take seriously this situation when the eternal life of someone is in question. So, it is obvious from my posts that I have seriously studied this for years, attempting to use the same solid hermeneutics I've used on many other foundational theological matters.

Years ago, you could find some very educated Pastors and seminarians online discussing this in a scholarly fashion. I did indeed learn much from the postings on the Internet, because in years past you did not find the subject truly studied out and presented; so the Internet sources were of great importance.

I'd about guarantee that the posters on the Christian forums will have a family member somewhere in the extended family who is 'gay'. Of course, I doubt the gay guy would ever admit it to the likes of so many people I see posting. In fact, over the years I've become convinced that usually the Christian who is gay drops out of his evangelical/fundamentalist church completely, and some may even join a liberal mainline church even if they do not fit otherwise theologically. I've also noticed the tendency of Christians who are gay, to join some Pentecostalist, Charismatic church hoping for a "healing" or "cure" from God, that such churches falsely promise under a mistaken premise or presupposition.
 

Dan Clarkston

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christian male who happens to love only other males

No true Christian being led by the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ would entertain thoughts of sexual feelings towards a member of the same sex which is an abomination unto the Lord.

The Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ NEVER leads anybody in the sinful behavior you are engaged in as that would be walking after the flesh and not after the leading of the Holy Spirit who always leads according to what God says in His Word.

Romans 1:32
Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.


Those accepting the gay thing along with all other things God's Word teaches is sin will not be allowed in to God's Kingdom because they continued in their sin and refused to repent and serve the Lord.

You're not going to try to tell us Jesus was gay are ya? I see satan pushing that lie in some quarters.
 

Arthur81

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My answer was sufficient…
Love everyone…IF you choose Gods WAY.

Engage in SEX with spouse of opposite gender…IF you choose Gods WAY.

Denounce, lend no support to TWO of the SAME Gender’s desire, acts to engage IN SEX…IF you choose Gods WAY.

Whatever YOU choose, YOU reap the Consequence. (Favorable or Unfavorable).

You want to READ, STUDY Gods view, Gods teaching, Gods approved word…on HomoSEXual behavior, yearning, choosing, lifestyle?

Not my job to read, study FOR you…

Here’s some suggestions…
Gen 2:24
Lev 18:22
Lev 20:13
Rom 1: 26-28
1 Cor 6:9-10
1 Cor 7:2
Mar 10: 6-9
Jude 1:7


Glory to God,
Taken
Your method of proof texting is similar to the Jehovah's Witnesses when give a list of verses trying to prove Jesus was created, when they don't understand the very verses that they line up. Here are just very short, fast replies to your list -

Gen 2:24 RV "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh."
If that defines sin, then Jesus sinned not cleaving to a wife, or it also contradicts Paul in 1 Cor. 7:7-9

Lev. 18:22; 20:13 - Were NOT commands for Christians & the boy in the OP unless quoted in the NT
Lev 26:46 RV These are the statutes and judgments and laws, which the LORD made between him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.
Lev 27:34 RV These are the commandments, which the LORD commanded Moses for the children of Israel in mount Sinai.

Rom 1:27 RV and likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another, men with men working unseemliness, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was due.
*In the scenario given in the OP, the boy did not possess a woman from whom to leave!

1Co 6:9 RV Or know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with men,
1Co 6:9 YLT have ye not known that the unrighteous the reign of God shall not inherit? be not led astray; neither whoremongers, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor sodomites,
The 1828 Webster's English Dictionary

ABU'SER, n. s as z. One who abuses, in speech or behavior; one that deceives; a ravisher; a sodomite. 1 Cor 6.
RAV'ISHER, n. 1. One that takes by violence. 2. One that forces a woman to his carnal embrace.
** The meaning of a sodomite does not fit the boy in the OP!

1Co 7:2 RV But, because of fornications, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband.
*This only applies to males and females who are eligible for a Biblical marriage, not males with males. As the OP boy is described, it would be sin to even marry a girl! In addition, anywhere fornication is used in the Bible where genders are indicated, it is ALWAYS male to female.

Mark 10:6-9 is merely a quote from Gen. 2:24 and is addressed above.

Jude 1:7 cannot be removed from the context of vs 6 & 8

Jud 1:6-8 RV And angels which kept not their own principality, but left their proper habitation, he hath kept in everlasting bonds under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them, having in like manner with these given themselves over to fornication, and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire. 8 Yet in like manner these also in their dreamings defile the flesh, and set at nought dominion, and rail at dignities.

*The Sodomites were like these (the angels who had sex with humans) as seen in the book of Enoch.
** The "strange flesh" in Greek is "different or other flesh". Is a male's flesh different from another male's flesh? It is different from whatever 'flesh' the angels exhibited, but not different from another male.
*** The "strange flesh" is the "heterox- flesh". Clearly does not refer to male with male.


Remember Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighbouring towns; like the angels, they committed fornication and indulged in unnatural lusts; and in eternal fire they paid the penalty, a warning for all. (Jude 1:7 REB)

*Again, here the "indulged in unnatural lusts" is the Greek "different or other flesh".