Blind Guides and Deluded Followers

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Keraz

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Why would Jesus preach to fallen angels? What nonsense. I can't take this seriously.
We know there are angels who followed Satan, why would Jesus not talk with them?
You contradict the Bible.
Those whom Jesus went to preach to must be those fallen angels, as dead humans lie in their graves and know nothing.
You are deceived. Parables don't refer to real people and places like Luke 16:19-31 does. You are denying the obvious truth that Jesus taught there because you believe what you want to believe instead of what scripture teaches.
It is people who have the crazy notion of a Paradise and an eternal fiery hell, who believe what they desire.
You are deceived. The souls of the dead in Christ are in heaven now and can communicate with Him there (Revelation 6:9-11).
Revelation 6:9-11 says the souls of the Christian Martyrs are kept under the Altar in heaven. They are not conscious, or alive in any way.
We are told they cry out or sing at times, as God allows it. This may just be simply allegorical, and anyway is heard only in heaven. Rev 19:1

SI, I know you to be a serious Bible studier and I agree with a lot of your posts, but your one liner responses above, bereft of proper Biblical support, is your bad.
It is babies in the Word, who have fairytale beliefs like the dead Christians immediately going to live in heaven and as for your AMill doctrine, that sadly shows a willingness to ignore the reality of the present world and scriptures which plainly tell of the Millennium.
 

Timtofly

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But Jesus forbade Mary in the garden to touch Him for He told her He had not yet gone to heaven (John 20:17) But yet He told the thief that on that day (Friday) he would be with Jesus in paradise. So either Jesus was lying to teh thief or to Mary.
Jesus is God. The thief was in Paradise with God. Paul states the same thing using the word Lord. Being with the Lord in Paradise is what happens to the church during the Millennium reign. Jesus is on the earth with Israel as King over the whole earth.

Jesus was in heaven in spirit, because Jesus gave up the spirit to the Lord God. The spirit could not go to Abraham's bosom. The body could not go to Abraham's bosom. Only the soul of Jesus instantly appeared as all came out of their graves in all one instant of time. The thief was not placed in the same tomb with Jesus hours later. Abraham's bosom was empty and no longer existed when the veil of the Temple was torn in two. So if the thief hopped off his Cross and started to walk around Jerusalem, with the rest of the OT, that would make Jerusalem, Paradise with the tree of life.

The only possibility is in heaven with the Lord, where Paradise and the tree of life is. The spirit does not have to ascend like a puff of physical air. The soul, also, could be in heaven instantly. The soul of the thief was instantly in Paradise, like all other redeemed in the NT, post the Cross. Do you not plan on being instantly in Paradise, they day you physically die? Why would you deny that to the thief that day he physically died? Can you not read that Jesus died hours before the other two humans that day? Our body never ascends to heaven, but returns to dust because it is a body of death and corruption. The soul enters God's permanent incorruptible physical body in Paradise. That would apply to the thief on the Cross, because he died hours later, after Jesus said, "It is finished".
 

Spiritual Israelite

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We know there are angels who followed Satan, why would Jesus not talk with them?
What would he have talked to them about and why?

Those whom Jesus went to preach to must be those fallen angels, as dead humans lie in their graves and know nothing.
Nonsense. Look what believing in the false doctrine of soul sleep leads to....thinking that Jesus preached to fallen angels. The most nonsensical thing I've ever seen.

SI, I know you to be a serious Bible studier and I agree with a lot of your posts, but your one liner responses above, bereft of proper Biblical support, is your bad.
Which one of us is believing the clearly unbiblical idea of Jesus preaching to fallen angels? I'll give you a hint. It's not me.

It is babies in the Word, who have fairytale beliefs like the dead Christians immediately going to live in heaven and as for your AMill doctrine, that sadly shows a willingness to ignore the reality of the present world and scriptures which plainly tell of the Millennium.
The reality is that scripture explicitly teaches that Jesus has authority over all things right now. Your understanding of His reign is flawed.
 

Ronald Nolette

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Jesus is God. The thief was in Paradise with God. Paul states the same thing using the word Lord. Being with the Lord in Paradise is what happens to the church during the Millennium reign. Jesus is on the earth with Israel as King over the whole earth.

Jesus was in heaven in spirit, because Jesus gave up the spirit to the Lord God. The spirit could not go to Abraham's bosom. The body could not go to Abraham's bosom. Only the soul of Jesus instantly appeared as all came out of their graves in all one instant of time. The thief was not placed in the same tomb with Jesus hours later. Abraham's bosom was empty and no longer existed when the veil of the Temple was torn in two. So if the thief hopped off his Cross and started to walk around Jerusalem, with the rest of the OT, that would make Jerusalem, Paradise with the tree of life.

The only possibility is in heaven with the Lord, where Paradise and the tree of life is. The spirit does not have to ascend like a puff of physical air. The soul, also, could be in heaven instantly. The soul of the thief was instantly in Paradise, like all other redeemed in the NT, post the Cross. Do you not plan on being instantly in Paradise, they day you physically die? Why would you deny that to the thief that day he physically died? Can you not read that Jesus died hours before the other two humans that day? Our body never ascends to heaven, but returns to dust because it is a body of death and corruption. The soul enters God's permanent incorruptible physical body in Paradise. That would apply to the thief on the Cross, because he died hours later, after Jesus said, "It is finished".
You rmistake is in that you demand the tree of life be in paradise prior to Jesus ascending. But the OT saints did not go to heaven after the veil was torn, but when Jesu ascended!

Ephesians 4:8
Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
 

Timtofly

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You rmistake is in that you demand the tree of life be in paradise prior to Jesus ascending. But the OT saints did not go to heaven after the veil was torn, but when Jesu ascended!

Ephesians 4:8
Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
I never said the OT saints went to Paradise before the Cross, nor after the veil was torn, that day. Only the thief, who died hours later, as the very first NT convert, to enter Paradise like all other NT converts. The soul enters Paradise into God's permanent incorruptible physical body.

The OT came out of their graves when the veil was torn in permanent incorruptible physical bodies. They did not ascend to Paradise that day. They ascended Sunday morning with Jesus, when He ascended.

The tree of life never left the Garden/Paradise. Paradise left earth for heaven when the tree of life was moved, before the Flood. It is plausible that when Enoch was translated was when Paradise and the tree of life moved to heaven from earth. Enoch is a type of the church being removed before tribulation. Noah is a type of Israel being protected through tribulation.

I don't understand why you do not see the thief as the first NT convert who physically died hours after the veil was torn. He did not enter Paradise like the OT redeemed. He went that day, not 3 days later.
 

Keraz

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What would he have talked to them about and why?
Things known only to God.
The fact is that Jesus did go somewhere and preached to someone. He did not immediately go to heaven, nor the repentant thief and neither do dead Christians. Who do not get another chance at Salvation.
Nonsense. Look what believing in the false doctrine of soul sleep leads to....thinking that Jesus preached to fallen angels. The most nonsensical thing I've ever seen.
You directly oppose scripture; The dead know nothing and the dead 'sleep in their graves. Eccl 9:5, Acts 13:36
Of course for an AMill believer, to reject plainly stated scripture, is just par for the course.
The reality is that scripture explicitly teaches that Jesus has authority over all things right now. Your understanding of His reign is flawed.
Flawed? I'll tell you whats flawed; the incredible idea of Jesus reigning now and ever since He Ascended.
It is obvious to any history buff, or those cognisant of their surroundings, that the God of Creation is not now in charge of human affairs.

Only at the glorious Return, seen by all, will the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, take up his rightful rule,
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Things known only to God.
The fact is that Jesus did go somewhere and preached to someone. He did not immediately go to heaven, nor the repentant thief and neither do dead Christians. Who do not get another chance at Salvation.
The idea that he would go to preach to anyone but humans is insane, but you won't even admit that. The gospel is for humans, not angels.

You directly oppose scripture; The dead know nothing and the dead 'sleep in their graves. Eccl 9:5, Acts 13:36
You misinterpret much scripture and take it out of context. You read verses in isolation and draw conclusions from them by just skimming the surface and do not make the effort to look at context and look into the verses in depth. That's laziness on your part. Take a closer look at these verses in context for once.

Ecclesiastes 9:4 4 Anyone who is among the living has hope—even a live dog is better off than a dead lion! 5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten. 6 Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished; never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun.

The context of Eccl 9:5 is in terms of one's life while they are physically alive. When they die, they no longer know anything in the sense of being physically alive. It says nothing about their awareness while physically dead, it's only commenting on the fact that they are physically dead and will not be physically alive on the earth again. That is the context. You drew a conclusion by only reading verse 5 while failing to see the context of that verse shown in verse 6.

Verse 6 says "Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished; never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun.". It simply says they are physically dead and will never be physically alive on the earth again. They will never love, hate, be jealous or do anything under the sun (on earth) while physically alive again because they are dead. They "know nothing" only in that sense. It does not mean they know nothing in the spiritual realm.

Acts 13:36 “Now when David had served God’s purpose in his own generation, he fell asleep; he was buried with his ancestors and his body decayed.

Again, you are missing the context. This is ONLY speaking of David's BODY and says nothing about his soul and spirit. So, you can't use this verse to support your false doctrine, either. If you removed the verses that you take out of context from your list of verses that you use to support your false doctrine of soul sleep, you are left with nothing.

Jesus spoke to Moses and Elijah at His transfiguration. Were they talking to Him in their sleep? No, they were obviously conscious. So, your soul sleep doctrine is clearly false but you are too prideful to admit it.

Of course for an AMill believer, to reject plainly stated scripture, is just par for the course.
What you think is plainly stated scripture is not as plain as you think, but you are too lazy to take a closer look at it. You believe what you want to believe.

Flawed? I'll tell you whats flawed; the incredible idea of Jesus reigning now and ever since He Ascended.
LOL! That is EXPLICITLY taught in scripture, so you are fighting with scripture on that one!

Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Ephesians 1:19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength 20 he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.

These scriptures couldn't be more clear that He reigns now over all things in heaven and in earth. It is foolish to say otherwise.

It is obvious to any history buff, or those cognisant of their surroundings, that the God of Creation is not now in charge of human affairs.
That is a foolish thing to say. Name one thing that occurs on earth that God has no control over and that happens without Him allowing it to happen?

Only at the glorious Return, seen by all, will the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, take up his rightful rule,
Total nonsense. He rules now and it is very sad that you don't recognize it. Is He not your King right now? Scripture says we are in His kingdom NOW!

Colossians 1:12 and giving joyful thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of his holy people in the kingdom of light. 13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
 

Ronald Nolette

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I never said the OT saints went to Paradise before the Cross, nor after the veil was torn, that day. Only the thief, who died hours later, as the very first NT convert, to enter Paradise like all other NT converts. The soul enters Paradise into God's permanent incorruptible physical body.
He was not the first NT convert. We enter heaven where Paradise has been since Jesus ascended! Eph. 4
 

Keraz

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That is a foolish thing to say. Name one thing that occurs on earth that God has no control over and that happens without Him allowing it to happen?
What He has allowed to happen, is for humans to rule themselves, without the precepts of Godly governance.
Your AMill beliefs have led you to make wild and inaccurate claims, that basically make you look silly.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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What He has allowed to happen, is for humans to rule themselves, without the precepts of Godly governance.
Your AMill beliefs have led you to make wild and inaccurate claims, that basically make you look silly.
And, yet, you are completely incapable of refuting my claims. I show scripture that explicitly stays Jesus is reigning now and you counter that with your babbling and nothing more. I think everyone here can see which one of us is making themselves look silly. And it's not the one proving his belief with explicit scripture.
 
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Timtofly

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He was not the first NT convert. We enter heaven where Paradise has been since Jesus ascended! Eph. 4
He was not the last OT convert either, because he died after the veil was torn, and Abraham's bosom was empty, and discarded.

So you give the thief some third option only you have imagined outside of God's Word.
 

Timtofly

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I show scripture that explicitly stays Jesus is reigning now.
Reigning per the sounding of the 7th Trumpet? Did the 7th Trumpet sound when you say Jesus was given all authority?

Revelation 11:15

“And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”

Why is this left out of what you state already happened? Is this not Jesus declared as the 7th Kingdom on earth, after all the human kingdoms have been changed into redeemed Kingdoms of God? Was Jesus declared the 7th Kingdom in the first century as you indicate all of Revelation seems pertinate to the first century, except maybe the Second Coming, which most would say is the 7th Trumpet. How can this 7th Trumpet declaration have been missed for 2 Millennia?
 

Ronald Nolette

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He was not the last OT convert either, because he died after the veil was torn, and Abraham's bosom was empty, and discarded.

So you give the thief some third option only you have imagined outside of God's Word.
The NT believing church was not born until pentecost. In order for one to be a NT believer one has to be baptized in the holy spirit and that did not begin until Pentecost- 50 days after jesus rose!
 

Timtofly

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The NT believing church was not born until pentecost. In order for one to be a NT believer one has to be baptized in the holy spirit and that did not begin until Pentecost- 50 days after jesus rose!
The Cross covered all who physically died post the Cross. Obviously the thief did not physically enjoy being a part of the NT assembly on the earth. He was born again on the Cross, and died in that condition.

You are comparing his dead physical condition with physically alive people.
 

Ronald Nolette

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The Cross covered all who physically died post the Cross. Obviously the thief did not physically enjoy being a part of the NT assembly on the earth. He was born again on the Cross, and died in that condition.

You are comparing his dead physical condition with physically alive people.
All people are saved by the blood of Jesus. Not all people are part of the church which began at Pentecost and ends at the pre trib rapture of the church.

Saints who died before Pentecost are OT saints and saints who die after the rapture I call trib saints both are not part of the church or bride of Christ.
 

Timtofly

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All people are saved by the blood of Jesus. Not all people are part of the church which began at Pentecost and ends at the pre trib rapture of the church.

Saints who died before Pentecost are OT saints and saints who die after the rapture I call trib saints both are not part of the church or bride of Christ.
Do they wear tags in Paradise that state OT saint, NT saint, and why would those living on earth after the Second Coming, move to Paradise?

You know in heaven, it does not matter how one got there, as you put it? The OT saints did not enter Paradise until 3 days after the thief.

The OT redeemed had to wait until the Cross, to have their resurrection into eternal life. Eternal life does not matter what earthly label you place on the soul.

Your "trib saints" are the firstfruits of those living on the earth during the Day of the Lord. They are the first generation on the earth, some from every nation represented. No one lives on earth in Adam's dead corruptible flesh after the Second Coming and the 7th Trumpet. All are in the image of Jesus' physical body. Those gathered on earth after the 6th Seal, Second Coming are the sheep and the wheat, who inherit the earth. So are the beheaded harvested after the final harvest during Satan's 42 months. All firstfruits of those living on the earth.