Where did Christian Universalism come from? - New or old?

[Ronald Nolette]

I never said they're symbolic. They will not enter rest, I fully agree. Eternal destruction/death is not rest. It's eternal destruction/death. Certainly not God's rest that brings salvation.

Well the immortality alone in that verse would imply they're not immortal. Why would they need to seek immortality if everyone is immortal? It would have just said "quality of life". Also yes they'll experience tribulation and anguish. I'm sure being thrown into a lake of fire is quite painful.

Neverending ruin sounds a lot like eternal death to me. Complete destruction. Obliterated. They go up in smoke. Their soul is killed.

What you are doing is playing with word definitions. Everybody except those indoctrinated into your mindset (JWS< INTL Bible, christadelphians et. al.) all understand it ot mean ceaseless agony in a conscious state. god did not write i riddles,

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Also Edom ceased to exist. It's not literally still burning, and its smoke isn't literally still rising. It was completely annihilated. Yet the Bible says its fire will not be quenched, night or day, and its smoke will rise forever.

"9 Edom’s streams will be turned into pitch,
her dust into burning sulfur;
her land will become blazing pitch!
10 It will not be quenched night or day;
its smoke will rise forever.
From generation to generation it will lie desolate;
no one will ever pass through it again." - Isaiah 34:9-10

And you said I'm using lots of human philosophy, when the idea of eternal conscious torment was heavily influenced by Platonic philosophy and extra-biblical sources like Dante's Inferno.

Well once again you show yourself a poor bible student. Edom still exists to this day! It is part of Jordan.

As for its fire smoke rising forever? the word is olam and can mean eternity but also means for a long duration- so this is most likely a reference of the millennial kingdom.

and the forever in verse 10 is nesah which means for eternity. So edom will be a land part that will stay desolate.

 

[hies]

What you are doing is playing with word definitions. Everybody except those indoctrinated into your mindset (JWS< INTL Bible, christadelphians et. al.) all understand it ot mean ceaseless agony in a conscious state. god did not write i riddles,

Yes and those beliefs were heavily inspired by things like Dante's inferno and Platonic philosophy.

Well once again you show yourself a poor bible student. Edom still exists to this day! It is part of Jordan.

As for its fire smoke rising forever? the word is olam and can mean eternity but also means for a long duration- so this is most likely a reference of the millennial kingdom.

and the forever in verse 10 is nesah which means for eternity. So edom will be a land part that will stay desolate.

Edom was utterly destroyed. It does not exist any more as a nation. The land itself may exist, but is no longer Edom's. So when you look at Revelation 14:11 which uses this same language, you can conclude that those thrown into the lake of fire will be utterly destroyed. They will cease to exist.

But again I ask why would they need to seek immortality if everyone is immortal in Romans 2:7?

And where does it imply that the the eternal punishment means they will be conscious for all of it?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Yes and those beliefs were heavily inspired by things like Dante's inferno and Platonic philosophy.

So very wrong. They were inspired by Jesus. Because you believe in annihilationism, yo uare forced tro redefine terms in Scripture that show men exist in the lake of fire for eternity and suffer without ceasing.

Edom was utterly destroyed. It does not exist any more as a nation. The land itself may exist, but is no longer Edom's. So when you look at Revelation 14:11 which uses this same language, you can conclude that those thrown into the lake of fire will be utterly destroyed. They will cease to exist.

But again I ask why would they need to seek immortality if everyone is immortal in Romans 2:7?

And where does it imply that the the eternal punishment means they will be conscious for all of it?

Well first off you must look at the differences between Greek and Hebrew .

Second you must look at the land. It still exists as part of Jordan which is comprised of Edom , MOab and Ammon.

Third look at the prophecy. We must take prophecy at face value (except where we know symbols are used based on language) If God says Edom

It has not been fulfilled as prophesied! Even John in writing revelation used names of places that were swallowed by other nations.

 

[hies]

So very wrong. They were inspired by Jesus. Because you believe in annihilationism, yo uare forced tro redefine terms in Scripture that show men exist in the lake of fire for eternity and suffer without ceasing.

Well first off you must look at the differences between Greek and Hebrew .

Second you must look at the land. It still exists as part of Jordan which is comprised of Edom , MOab and Ammon.

Third look at the prophecy. We must take prophecy at face value (except where we know symbols are used based on language) If God says Edom

It has not been fulfilled as prophesied! Even John in writing revelation used names of places that were swallowed by other nations.

I haven't redefined any terms.

And you STILL didn't answer my question: Why would they need to seek immortality if everyone is immortal in Romans 2:7? Stop deflecting.

 

[St. SteVen]

Why would they need to seek immortality if everyone is immortal in Romans 2:7?

What? Better read the verse. (it does not say that everyone is immortal) To those who SEEK immortality.

Romans 2:7 NIV
To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

]

 

[St. SteVen]

What? Better read the verse. (it does not say that everyone is immortal) To those who SEEK immortality.

Romans 2:7 NIV
To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

]

• Romans 6:12
  Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires.
  
  
• Romans 8:11
  And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.
  
  
• 1 Corinthians 15:53
  For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.
  
  
• 1 Corinthians 15:54
  When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”
  
  
• 2 Corinthians 4:11
  For we who are alive are always being given over to death for Jesus’ sake, so that his life may also be revealed in our mortal body.
  
  
• 2 Corinthians 5:4
  For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.
  
  
• Hebrews 13:6
  So we say with confidence, “The Lord is my helper; I will not be afraid. What can mere mortals do to me?”

 

[hies]

What? Better read the verse. (it does not say that everyone is immortal) To those who SEEK immortality.

Romans 2:7 NIV
To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

]

That was my point. That we are not immortal. So the idea that a soul can exist in hell conscious for all eternity contradicts the fact we are not immortal.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I haven't redefined any terms.

And you STILL didn't answer my question: Why would they need to seek immortality if everyone is immortal in Romans 2:7? Stop deflecting.

thought I did. but to answer the question look at the structure of the sentence.

Romans 2:7
King James Version
​

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

The type of immortality they seek is eternal life! eternal life not only is ceaseless life, but also a quality of life which is bliss. The fact that the conjunction "kai" (and) does not appear tells us that eternal life describes the kind of immortality.

So as jesus tasted death for all mankind Heb. 2:9

So all men now live.

Jesus conquered death before men were cast into the lake of fire

1 Cor.15: 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Rev. 20:
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

immortality is a length of life
eternal life is a quality of life for one who is immortal.

Death is the last enemy destroyed- then the lost are tossed into teh lake with no death to face.

Destroy also means a state of ruin.

 

[hies]

The type of immortality they seek is eternal life! eternal life not only is ceaseless life, but also a quality of life which is bliss. The fact that the conjunction "kai" (and) does not appear tells us that eternal life describes the kind of immortality.

It never said that they sought "eternal life as in high quality of life". It said they sought immortality.

Death is the last enemy destroyed- then the lost are tossed into teh lake with no death to face.

"But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." - Revelation 21:8

With no death to face? What about "this is the second death"?

Once they are all dead, there will be no more death, because everyone remaining has eternal life, and immortality. So yes, the last enemy to be destroyed is death, because once all of the people destined to die have died, there will be no more death.

In fact, if they were alive in the lake of fire, experiencing a constant "death", then "death" would not have been destroyed, as they would continually be experiencing "death". Therefore, if "death" still exists, then "death" has not been destroyed, has it?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

It never said that they sought "eternal life as in high quality of life". It said they sought immortality.


"But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." - Revelation 21:8

"This is the second death."

Once they are all dead, there will be no more death, because everyone remaining has eternal life, and immortality. So yes, the last enemy to be destroyed is death, because once all of the people destined to die have died, there will be no more death.

In fact, if they were alive in the lake of fire, experiencing a constant "death", then "death" would not have been destroyed, as they would continually be experiencing "death". Therefore, if "death" still exists, then "death" has not been destroyed, has it?

YOu must be a master at TWISTER!

Jesus destroyed death in the previous chapter! Once death is destroyed no one dies! and as He destroys death before people are tossed inrto the lake of fire- no one dies!

If people experience death after teh judgment seat and stay dead, then Jesus did not taste death for all, and He did not defeat death for billions will die . But He defeated death and experienced death for all so all live immortal, with teh righteous living eternal immortal!

 

[hies]

YOu must be a master at TWISTER!

Jesus destroyed death in the previous chapter! Once death is destroyed no one dies! and as He destroys death before people are tossed inrto the lake of fire- no one dies!

If people experience death after teh judgment seat and stay dead, then Jesus did not taste death for all, and He did not defeat death for billions will die . But He defeated death and experienced death for all so all live immortal, with teh righteous living eternal immortal!

Well it literally says that when they're thrown into the lake of fire, that it is the second death for them. So I'm not twisting anything. I'm just saying what the Bible says.

And yes, the destruction of death itself means that no longer will anyone die, because everyone has already died for the second time (permanently). If being thrown into the lake of fire means you will die continually, then death has not been destroyed. Being thrown into the lake of fire is the second death. Just as the Bible says.

If anyone is twisting scripture here, it's you.

But more importantly, this doesn't actually matter for salvation. We're quarreling over disputable matters.

Personally, I take the stance that people will be judged, and experience pain and agony as they're cast into the lake of fire, while the host of heaven, and everyone they have loved who is in heaven looks down upon them and claps as they're cast into permanent ruin; as they cease to exist. It's pretty far from universalism, which I think we both can agree is completely unbiblical. I also don't see a moral issue with annihilationism.

 

[hies]

YOu must be a master at TWISTER!

Jesus destroyed death in the previous chapter! Once death is destroyed no one dies! and as He destroys death before people are tossed inrto the lake of fire- no one dies!

If people experience death after teh judgment seat and stay dead, then Jesus did not taste death for all, and He did not defeat death for billions will die . But He defeated death and experienced death for all so all live immortal, with teh righteous living eternal immortal!

And to be honest, if eternal conscious torment were true, maybe I could agree with God that his judgement was righteous in casting them out of heaven, but I would always look down on God, saying in my heart "But why do they need to exist still? Just to experience pain?" - that's the main reason I know it's not true. I wouldn't wish that upon my worst enemies. I'd rather they just didn't exist if they didn't want to be with God. And I know God would too, because he's a good, and loving God. His final act of love for them would be to destroy them completely.

What does eternal conscious torment even gain for God? Why can't he just destroy them completely? Why does he need them to suffer consciously for all eternity?

All I know for sure is that whatever God decides is good. But I cannot see an ounce of goodness in eternal conscious torment. Or in universalism. I can only see goodness in annihilationism. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I trust the Lord will teach me some day. And I don't base my salvation on whether I understand this principle correctly or not. The only reason I give ECT an ounce of credibility is because so many other people believe in it. I don't believe in it based on what the Bible has said though.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Well it literally says that when they're thrown into the lake of fire, that it is the second death for them. So I'm not twisting anything. I'm just saying what the Bible says.

and you ignore the previous chapter that defines the second death as death and the grave being destroyed in the lake of fire and that jesus experienced death for all men.

If people die for eternity, then Jesus did not conquer death.

And yes, the destruction of death itself means that no longer will anyone die, because everyone has already died for the second time (permanently). If being thrown into the lake of fire means you will die continually, then death has not been destroyed. Being thrown into the lake of fire is the second death. Just as the Bible says.

Sorry but you are putting them out of order and saying jesus did not conquer death for the majority of mankind dies. In case you failed math, the events of REv. 19 come before the events of REv. 20.

If being thrown into the lake of fire means you will die continually, then death has not been destroyed. Being thrown into the lake of fire is the second death. Just as the Bible says.

You do not die continually- don't know where you get that from. you suffer for eternity as rejecting the death and physical resurrection
of Jesus for their sin debt, they must pay it themselves.

Personally, I take the stance that people will be judged, and experience pain and agony as they're cast into the lake of fire, while the host of heaven, and everyone they have loved who is in heaven looks down upon them and claps as they're cast into permanent ruin; as they cease to exist. It's pretty far from universalism, which I think we both can agree is completely unbiblical. I also don't see a moral issue with annihilationism.

Well human sense of morality and biblical truth can sometimes be far apart

 

[hies]

and you ignore the previous chapter that defines the second death as death and the grave being destroyed in the lake of fire and that jesus experienced death for all men.

Physical death? Yes.
Spiritual death? No.

You do not die continually- don't know where you get that from. you suffer for eternity as rejecting the death and physical resurrection
of Jesus for their sin debt, they must pay it themselves.

So you experience the "second death" for all eternity? How then is death destroyed if it still exists, as some will continually experience it?

But please answer my questions:
What does eternal conscious torment even gain for God? Why can't he just destroy them completely? Why does he need them to suffer consciously for all eternity?

 

[St. SteVen]

--- Public Service Announcement ---

===== WARNING =====
Annihilationism is the gateway drug to full-blown Christian Universalism.

- 30 -

]

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Physical death? Yes.
Spiritual death? No.

So you agree then that jesus died in all mens place and He destroys death in Rev. 20 before He casts people into the lake of fire.

Spiritual death is the eternal separation from god.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

So you experience the "second death" for all eternity? How then is death destroyed if it still exists, as some will continually experience it?

But please answer my questions:
What does eternal conscious torment even gain for God? Why can't he just destroy them completely? Why does he need them to suffer consciously for all eternity?

Because the second death is eternal. remember death was destroyed in the lake of fire before people were tossed into it.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

The destruction of death is the second death.

It is not about gain or loss for God. It is about Gods justice.

He could destroy them completely, but He chose not to! God is in need of nothing. He doesn't need us in heaven nor does He need people in the Lake. It is just where He said people would go.

 

[hies]

Because the second death is eternal. remember death was destroyed in the lake of fire before people were tossed into it.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

The destruction of death is the second death.

It is not about gain or loss for God. It is about Gods justice.

He could destroy them completely, but He chose not to! God is in need of nothing. He doesn't need us in heaven nor does He need people in the Lake. It is just where He said people would go.

Yes death is destroyed because there's no one left to die. They die, so there's no longer any death.

"But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." - Revelation 21:8

Since those thrown into the lake of fire experience the second death. You can say it just means separatiton, but that's not what it actually says. The word used is "θάνατος (thanatos)", which means "death, physical or spiritual. From thnesko; death."

And why did he choose not to destroy them completely? You can't say it's because it's what he said, when what he actually said is they would experience the second death, their souls would be killed, and that they do not have immortality. I don't know how he could make it any clearer that they will indeed be destroyed completely and their souls would die. Nor do I see a single benefit with ECT.

--- Public Service Announcement ---

===== WARNING =====
Annihilationism is the gateway drug to full-blown Christian Universalism.

- 30 -

]

Universalism ignores man's free will and what the Bible says. I never believed in ECT, and haven't found a single good reason to believe in it, because the Bible doesn't say anything remotely like that. It literally says they will die for the second time, permanently.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Yes death is destroyed because there's no one left to die. They die, so there's no longer any death.

That is not what the bible says:

Revelation 20:12-15
King James Version
​

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Maybe in the Hies bible, but in Gods word death and the grave are destroyed first- then with death no longer in existence- those not found in the book are cast into the lake of fire!

Revelation 14:9-11
King James Version
​

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Despite your quite fanciful reinterpretation of this passage, anyuone reading this without bias conclude that those who take the mark suffer forever and ever.

Dead don't suffer- only the living. That is basic God given thought all mankind has.