Where did Christian Universalism come from? - New or old?

[St. SteVen]

"If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned." - John 15:6

Oh my. - LOL

1) Where do you get "slowly wither up and die" out of that?
2) Those branches were on the vine (in Christ) and you are sending them to hell for not producing fruit?

What do you make of this? Verse 15. Fruit or no fruit? (escaping through the flames)

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 NIV
If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,
13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire,
and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work.
14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.
15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—
even though only as one escaping through the flames.

]

 

[hies]

How did you arrive at that conclusion?

Because your version of "justice" ignores people's free will decision.

Do you have biblical support for that opinion?

God is love. Love cannot be forced.

Do Satan and his angels have knees to bow and tongues to confess? (acknowledge) Every knee will bow and every tongue acknowledge...

Philippians 2:10-11 NIV
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

]

We've already went over this.

They won't get an opportunity to be saved in the afterlife, so when they're forced to bow and acknowledge him as God, they won't be doing so willingly, which is what brings salvation. They'll be forced to because that is just. Titus 2 even said the salvation is given to those who wait for it in this present age... Then Hebrews 9:28 says when he returns, it will not be to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who waited. If you have not waited for him then, he will not be coming to bear your sin and accept you into open arms, will he?

And once again, if they had been given everything yet still chose to sin, then there's nothing more God could possibly do.

 

[hies]

Oh my. - LOL

1) Where do you get "slowly wither up and die" out of that?
2) Those branches were on the vine (in Christ) and you are sending them to hell for not producing fruit?

What do you make of this? Verse 15. Fruit or no fruit? (escaping through the flames)

1 Corinthians 3:12-15 NIV
If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,
13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire,
and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work.
14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.
15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—
even though only as one escaping through the flames.

]

We've went over 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 as well. This verse is about a Christian's works being judged. Not about salvation. Salvation has nothing to do with our works.

John 15:6 is talking about people who claim to be Christian and yet don't produce fruit. They're hypocrites, and not true believers. Like the Pharisees they are whitewashed tombs.

 

[St. SteVen]

We've already went over this.

We are going in circles. You refuse to understand where I am coming from.

'

 

[hies]

We are going in circles. You refuse to understand where I am coming from.

'

I agree we're going in circles, but it's not because I refuse to see where you're coming from. It's because you refuse to accept that some people will never accept Jesus. They will crucify him 100 times out of 100.

God cannot force people to love him.
He cannot force people to be sinless.
He cannot allow sin into heaven.

Therefore God cannot force people into heaven.

"But when they see Jesus"
They already saw him. And they crucified him.

Satan and his angels, and Adam and Eve were given paradise, so they literally had everything God could give them, yet they still chose to sin.

He literally cannot do any more for them without interfering with their free will. And remember that we just concluded God cannot force people into heaven?

This is basic logic.

Yes they will bow. But not by choice. The time for choice came and went.

If "bowing" was what saved you, then it's your works that save you. Rather, when people FREELY CHOOSE to bow, it's a result of their saving faith.

 

[St. SteVen]

I agree we're going in circles, but it's not because I refuse to see where you're coming from.

If that is true I want you to make a statement about what you think I believe and allow me to correct anything that is in error in your understanding of me. Fair enough? Otherwise, we are finished. There is no value in continuing to go in circles.

I assume your aim is love, as is mine. But I could be wrong about you.

]

 

[hies]

If that is true I want you to make a statement about what you think I believe and allow me to correct anything that is in error in your understanding of me. Fair enough? Otherwise, we are finished. There is no value in continuing to go in circles.

I assume your aim is love, as is mine. But I could be wrong about you.

]

I'm not sure if you read this part before I edited it, but let me show you just to make it clear:
Yes they will bow. But not by choice. The time for choice came and went.

If "bowing" was what saved you, then it's your works that save you. Rather, when people FREELY CHOOSE to bow, it's a result of their saving faith.

But as for what you believe:
You think when people see Christ return, they will willingly bow to him because of his overwhelming love, and that hell is just to remove the impurities in them, but it's more like a heart surgery than actual separation from God.

 

[hies]

If that is true I want you to make a statement about what you think I believe and allow me to correct anything that is in error in your understanding of me. Fair enough? Otherwise, we are finished. There is no value in continuing to go in circles.

I assume your aim is love, as is mine. But I could be wrong about you.

]

They didn't bow in paradise (since Adam was representing all of man, it means every single one of us would've disobeyed)
They didn't bow here in a place where there is suffering
They didn't bow when Jesus came down, instead they nailed him to a cross

But they will bow when he comes back to bring judgement. Not by choice, as the time for that has come and gone. They will bow out of fear, and then they will be cast into the lake of fire.

 

[St. SteVen]

But as for what you believe:
You think when people see Christ return, they will willingly bow to him because of his overwhelming love, and that hell is just to remove the impurities in them, but it's more like a heart surgery than actual separation from God.

That's pretty good. Thank you. I'm impressed. Where have you been hiding this person?

Do you think that sounds like a bad plan?

- Those who claim to hate God haven't met him yet.
- The Bible tells us that they will freely acknowledge that he is Lord.
- All of us will need some work on a personal level. (wood, hay, stubble)
- Nations, and leaders (both political and religious) will answer. As will every individual.
- The ultimate triumph of grace will be when everything and everyone is restored and redeemed.

Malachi 3:2 NIV
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears?
For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.

]

 

[St. SteVen]

But they will bow when he comes back to bring judgement. Not by choice, as the time for that has come and gone. They will bow out of fear, and then they will be cast into the lake of fire.

That view is not support by this scripture.

Philippians 2:10-11 NIV
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

]

 

[hies]

- Those who claim to hate God haven't met him yet.

1. They rejected him in paradise. Adam and Eve were the representives of all mankind, so all of us would have disobeyed.
2. They did meet him, and they nailed him to a cross.
3. They didn't bother seeking him in this life when they've been given many chances to do so.

- The Bible tells us that they will freely acknowledge that he is Lord.

With shame, fear, weeping and gnashing of teeth. Do you see the picture it's painting?

- All of us will need some work on a personal level. (wood, hay, stubble)

No we will be made perfect when he returns:
"Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is." - 1 John 3:2

- Nations, and leaders (both political and religious) will answer. As will every individual.

Correct.

- The ultimate triumph of grace will be when everything and everyone is restored and redeemed.

By destroying the rebellious.

That view is not support by this scripture.

Philippians 2:10-11 NIV
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

]

When he returns he will bring salvation to those waiting, and everlasting judgement and contempt to those who rejected him.

"28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment." - John 5:28-29

"10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come." - 1 Thessalonians 1:10

"8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming." - 2 Thessalonians 2:8

"2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt." - Daniel 12:2

"And now, little children, abide in him, so that when he appears we may have confidence and not shrink from him in shame at his coming." - 1 John 2:28

So yes they will bow.

"36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him." - John 3:36

"28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." - Matthew 10:28

"15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." - Revelation 20:15

"9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment." - 2 Peter 2:9

"19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God." - Galatians 5:19-21

"6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience." - Ephesians 5:6

And from this article:

Will there be a second chance for salvation after death? | GotQuestions.org

Will there be a second chance for salvation after death? Will we be given an opportunity to receive Christ as Savior after death?

www.gotquestions.org

What about those who do not believe? Wouldn’t they repent and believe if they were given a second chance? The answer is no, they would not because their hearts are not changed simply because they die. Their hearts and minds “are at enmity” against God and won’t accept Him even when they see Him face to face. This is evidenced clearly in the story of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31. If ever someone should have repented when given a second chance to see clearly the truth, it was the rich man. But although he was in torment in hell, he only asked that Abraham send Lazarus back to earth to warn his brothers so they didn’t have to suffer the same fate. There was no repentance in his heart, only regret for where he found himself. Abraham’s answer says it all: “And he said to him, If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded, even though one rose from the dead” (Luke 16:31). Here we see that the witness of the Scriptures is sufficient for salvation for those who believe it, and no other revelation will bring about salvation to those who do not. No second, third, or fourth chances would be enough to turn the heart of stone into a heart of flesh.

 

[St. SteVen]

What about those who do not believe?

Back to going in circles. Let's give this discussion a decent burial.

Go ahead and have the last word. Thanks for your participation.

/

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You don't understand the concept of Annihilationism. They are not immediately destroyed. Rather, they are sent out of God's presence, and they wither up and die (permanently) as they are no longer given life. Whatever life they have fades and dies. This death is gradual, and painful.

This is a very long read, but I encourage you to read all of it: Annihilationism - Wikipedia

If you do not read it all and do not make an objective and informed decision, then I have no desire to continue communicating with you on this topic. If however, you find something in the Wikipedia page that is unanswered, feel free to ask me. Otherwise you have shown to me you do not care about the truth, and just want to hold to your own opinions and beliefs.

Well I took the time to read your wiki article. Nothing new there.

So you are not a JW. I would say then you are christadelphian or an INTL. bible Student.

Annihilation has always been a very small minority position in the church and will remain so because it relies on a bad understanding of words used in the times written.

But the fact that Lazarus and the rich man, Jesus warning of wailing and gnashing of teeth, deatrh and the grave destroyed before people are tossed in to the lake and those with the mark having no rest from their torment forever are clear understanding for the modern man. for the words like perish, destruction and others used to describe the punishemnt, one has to actually do work and look the words up in th eoriginal and then learn how they were used!

 

[hies]

Well I took the time to read your wiki article. Nothing new there.

So you are not a JW. I would say then you are christadelphian or an INTL. bible Student.

Annihilation has always been a very small minority position in the church and will remain so because it relies on a bad understanding of words used in the times written.

But the fact that Lazarus and the rich man, Jesus warning of wailing and gnashing of teeth, deatrh and the grave destroyed before people are tossed in to the lake and those with the mark having no rest from their torment forever are clear understanding for the modern man. for the words like perish, destruction and others used to describe the punishemnt, one has to actually do work and look the words up in th eoriginal and then learn how they were used!

I'm neither of those things. And I agree they will not enter into God's rest (How can we enter into God’s rest? | GotQuestions.org). The rest that gives eternal life and immortality to mortal souls. Lazarus was in Hades, not the lake of fire.

"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." - Romans 2:7

"who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen" - 1 Timothy 6:16

Implies the soul is not immortal. And they will not be given eternal life. Their souls will be killed (Matthew 10:28).

Every verse I've seen presented to support eternal conscious torment was just due to a bad understanding. Terms like "eternal punishment" don't mean they have to be alive. If their punishment ended upon death, they could be brought back and enter heaven. It's an eternal prison sentence. They don't need to be alive for all of it. So it doesn't imply eternal conscious torment.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I'm neither of those things. And I agree they will not enter into God's rest (How can we enter into God’s rest? | GotQuestions.org). The rest that gives eternal life and immortality to mortal souls. Lazarus was in Hades, not the lake of fire.

"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." - Romans 2:7

"who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen" - 1 Timothy 6:16

Implies the soul is not immortal. And they will not be given eternal life. Their souls will be killed (Matthew 10:28).

Every verse I've seen presented to support eternal conscious torment was just due to a bad understanding. Terms like "eternal punishment" don't mean they have to be alive. If their punishment ended upon death, they could be brought back and enter heaven. It's an eternal prison sentence. They don't need to be alive for all of it. So it doesn't imply eternal conscious torment.

So whom do you fellowship with?

I will answer you rother points when you identify what flavor of Christendom you adhere to.

 

[hies]

So whom do you fellowship with?

I will answer you rother points when you identify what flavor of Christendom you adhere to.

Non-denominational. One's church does not make their beliefs true or false. I carefully read what the Bible says and study different versions and different commentaries.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Non-denominational. One's church does not make their beliefs true or false. I carefully read what the Bible says and study different versions and different commentaries.

True a particular denomination only defines usually how one attains to their theology.

You have to twist verses like Matthew 10:28 to make it seem like it is saying something else, when the reality is their soul will indeed be killed. I haven't twisted a single verse. I've merely said what the Bible actually says.

YOu merely say what your learning has taught you in the 21st Century. But go back and learn what things like destroy (notice Jesus said don't fear those that can kill the body, but fear God....destroy) Words take on differing meanings over differing times. apollymi (destroy) also meant ruin or never ending ruin.

YOu tend to use lots of human philosophy to support your redefinitions. Especially the revelation passage where thee torment of people is forever and ever and they have no rest. You have to rewrite the scriptures and then defend it by saying the words are symbolic.

The Bible communicates very clearly that they will be utterly destroyed and not have eternal life. They will have eternal shame, but one does not need to be alive in order to be shamed.

Human reasoning- and irrelevant. That is not how 1st century believers thought.

Rom. 2:7 only says good deed doers have immortality and the quality of life called eternal life. But the rest of the context which you ignored is this:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

If Rom. 2 implies non existence- , then 8and 9 destroy that concept!

 

[hies]

True a particular denomination only defines usually how one attains to their theology.

YOu merely say what your learning has taught you in the 21st Century. But go back and learn what things like destroy (notice Jesus said don't fear those that can kill the body, but fear God....destroy) Words take on differing meanings over differing times. apollymi (destroy) also meant ruin or never ending ruin.

YOu tend to use lots of human philosophy to support your redefinitions. Especially the revelation passage where thee torment of people is forever and ever and they have no rest. You have to rewrite the scriptures and then defend it by saying the words are symbolic.

Human reasoning- and irrelevant. That is not how 1st century believers thought.

Rom. 2:7 only says good deed doers have immortality and the quality of life called eternal life. But the rest of the context which you ignored is this:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

If Rom. 2 implies non existence- , then 8and 9 destroy that concept!

I never said they're symbolic. They will not enter rest, I fully agree. Eternal destruction/death is not rest. It's eternal destruction/death. Certainly not God's rest that brings salvation.

Well the immortality alone in that verse would imply they're not immortal. Why would they need to seek immortality if everyone is immortal? It would have just said "quality of life". Also yes they'll experience tribulation and anguish. I'm sure being thrown into a lake of fire is quite painful.

Neverending ruin sounds a lot like eternal death to me. Complete destruction. Obliterated. They go up in smoke. Their soul is killed.

 

[hies]

True a particular denomination only defines usually how one attains to their theology.

YOu merely say what your learning has taught you in the 21st Century. But go back and learn what things like destroy (notice Jesus said don't fear those that can kill the body, but fear God....destroy) Words take on differing meanings over differing times. apollymi (destroy) also meant ruin or never ending ruin.

YOu tend to use lots of human philosophy to support your redefinitions. Especially the revelation passage where thee torment of people is forever and ever and they have no rest. You have to rewrite the scriptures and then defend it by saying the words are symbolic.

Human reasoning- and irrelevant. That is not how 1st century believers thought.

Rom. 2:7 only says good deed doers have immortality and the quality of life called eternal life. But the rest of the context which you ignored is this:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

If Rom. 2 implies non existence- , then 8and 9 destroy that concept!

Also Edom ceased to exist. It's not literally still burning, and its smoke isn't literally still rising. It was completely annihilated. Yet the Bible says its fire will not be quenched, night or day, and its smoke will rise forever.

"9 Edom’s streams will be turned into pitch,
her dust into burning sulfur;
her land will become blazing pitch!
10 It will not be quenched night or day;
its smoke will rise forever.
From generation to generation it will lie desolate;
no one will ever pass through it again." - Isaiah 34:9-10

And you said I'm using lots of human philosophy, when the idea of eternal conscious torment was heavily influenced by Platonic philosophy and extra-biblical sources like Dante's Inferno.

 

[St. SteVen]

New topic.

Plundering my religious upbringing - The desert island question

While composing a response post on another thread (obviously) it occurred to me the benefits I received from my religious upbringing. I spend plenty of time talking against it now, but only occasionally speak to the benefits. Others may have taken a similar path. Started in one place and...

www.christianityboard.com

]