Where did Christian Universalism come from? - New or old?

[Stumpmaster]

Are Death and Hades persons?

They are often personified. Ask me why.

Hos 13:14 I will ransom them from the power of Sheol.I will redeem them from death! Death, where are your plagues? Sheol, where is your destruction? “Compassion will be hidden from my eyes.

1Co 15:55 “Death, where is your sting? Hades, where is your victory?”

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Death and Hades just means the realm of the dead get thrown into the lake of fire to experience a second, permanent death.

"But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” - Revelation 21:8

Would contradict what you're trying to imply. "That because death died there is no more death"... Yes... Because there's no one left to die since they've experienced the final, permanent death... Lol.

You're essentially trying to say "because they died the second death, and now there's no more death because all of the dead are dead, that means the dead must have eternal life because they can't die anymore!" Lol

Wrong!

We have already seen that the antichrist and false prophet exist in the lake of fire for 1,000 years and still alive.

We see these who take the mark suffer for eternity and have no rest . No matter how others try to reinterpret this- people live in th elake of fire.

Death and the grave experience death? How do inanimate things die? no they are destroyed in the lake of fire before those tossed in go just as Scripture shows.

Jesus vanquishes death at the end of time before eternity is "established" and time ends. The righteous already have immortality.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

If all the unrighteous cease to exist- then Jesus does not conquer death!

But like the rich man suffering in the place of torments, the unrighteous shall suffer forever in the lake of fire that was designed just for teh devil and the rebellious angels.

 

[hies]

Wrong!

We have already seen that the antichrist and false prophet exist in the lake of fire for 1,000 years and still alive.

We see these who take the mark suffer for eternity and have no rest . No matter how others try to reinterpret this- people live in th elake of fire.

Death and the grave experience death? How do inanimate things die? no they are destroyed in the lake of fire before those tossed in go just as Scripture shows.

Jesus vanquishes death at the end of time before eternity is "established" and time ends. The righteous already have immortality.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

If all the unrighteous cease to exist- then Jesus does not conquer death!

But like the rich man suffering in the place of torments, the unrighteous shall suffer forever in the lake of fire that was designed just for teh devil and the rebellious angels.

You don't understand the concept of Annihilationism. They are not immediately destroyed. Rather, they are sent out of God's presence, and they wither up and die (permanently) as they are no longer given life. Whatever life they have fades and dies. This death is gradual, and painful.

This is a very long read, but I encourage you to read all of it: Annihilationism - Wikipedia

If you do not read it all and do not make an objective and informed decision, then I have no desire to continue communicating with you on this topic. If however, you find something in the Wikipedia page that is unanswered, feel free to ask me. Otherwise you have shown to me you do not care about the truth, and just want to hold to your own opinions and beliefs.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You don't understand the concept of Annihilationism. They are not immediately destroyed. Rather, they are sent out of God's presence, and they wither up and die (permanently) as they are no longer given life. Whatever life they have fades and dies. This death is gradual, and painful.

This is a very long read, but I encourage you to read all of it: Annihilationism - Wikipedia

If you do not read it all and do not make an objective and informed decision, then I have no desire to continue communicating with you on this topic. If however, you find something in the Wikipedia page that is unanswered, feel free to ask me. Otherwise you have shown to me you do not care about the truth, and just want to hold to your own opinions and beliefs.

I do not need to know how long or short annihilationism declares life to last after the lake of fire. Teh bible calls it for eternity and that is enough.

There is nothing in the Scriptures that says the lake of fire is a slow ands painful death. Bodies tossed in a high high heat die immediately.

Jesus tasted death for all mankind as it says in Eph and romans so all live immortal lives! Only believers have eternal lives (which is more a quality than length)

 

[hies]

I do not need to know how long or short annihilationism declares life to last after the lake of fire. Teh bible calls it for eternity and that is enough.

There is nothing in the Scriptures that says the lake of fire is a slow ands painful death. Bodies tossed in a high high heat die immediately.

Jesus tasted death for all mankind as it says in Eph and romans so all live immortal lives! Only believers have eternal lives (which is more a quality than length)

Yes their punishment is for all eternity; just like an indefinite prison sentence is for all eternity, but the person receiving the sentence may not live for all eternity. Them not receiving eternal life means they receive eternal death.

I've already went over this, so you're just talking over me.

You haven't addressed any of my points, and you refuse to read the article, which means you aren't taking an objective and impartial approach to this topic.

Therefore everything you've said is irrational, stubborn, and full of contempt.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Yes their punishment is for all eternity; just like an indefinite prison sentence is for all eternity, but the person receiving the sentence may not live for all eternity. Them not receiving eternal life means they receive eternal death.

I've already went over this, so you're just talking over me.

You haven't addressed any of my points, and you refuse to read the article, which means you aren't taking an objective and impartial approach to this topic.

Therefore everything you've said is irrational, stubborn, and full of contempt.

I have studied annexationism YOu begin this reply with a human example with a big may! But the Bible says different.

You redefine Gods Word when it speaks of eternal suffering of people. Why should I accept your words as literal and not retranslate them according to some belief someone taught me?

 

[Johann]

I have studied annexationism YOu begin this reply with a human example with a big may! But the Bible says different.

You redefine Gods Word when it speaks of eternal suffering of people. Why should I accept your words as literal and not retranslate them according to some belief someone taught me?

Guess we shall find out--whether "forever and ever" is just that, or spacial, short duration of time.

 

[hies]

I have studied annexationism YOu begin this reply with a human example with a big may! But the Bible says different.

You redefine Gods Word when it speaks of eternal suffering of people. Why should I accept your words as literal and not retranslate them according to some belief someone taught me?

The Bible communicates very clearly that they will be utterly destroyed and not have eternal life. They will have eternal shame, but one does not need to be alive in order to be shamed. In fact, if they were ashamed of themselves, they might find mercy, as that would signify their repentence. They weren't ashamed, but they were shamed. Big difference.

Romans 2:7 implies they will not have immortality.

Not a single verse implies they will be conscious. Every verse implies they will be dead, and their punishment eternal (like an indefinite prison sentence).

You have to twist verses like Matthew 10:28 to make it seem like it is saying something else, when the reality is their soul will indeed be killed. I haven't twisted a single verse. I've merely said what the Bible actually says.

 

[St. SteVen]

Not a single verse implies they will be conscious. Every verse implies they will be dead, and their punishment eternal (like an indefinite prison sentence).

If that is true, why would Jesus mislead us with the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus? Was the Rich Man conscious, or talking in his soul sleep? - LOL

] cc: @Ronald Nolette

 

[St. SteVen]

You don't understand the concept of Annihilationism. They are not immediately destroyed. Rather, they are sent out of God's presence, and they wither up and die (permanently) as they are no longer given life. Whatever life they have fades and dies. This death is gradual, and painful.

Thanks for sharing your definition of Annihilationism.

What a horrible thing to lay at God's doorstep. No tyrant in human history has committed such a heinous crime against humankind. (those created in his image) Who would do such a thing to their children?

]

 

[Johann]

Thanks for sharing your definition of Annihilationism.

What a horrible thing to lay at God's doorstep. No tyrant in human history has committed such a heinous crime against humankind. (those created in his image) Who would do such a thing to their children?

]

Appealing to emotions-red flag.

 

[hies]

Thanks for sharing your definition of Annihilationism.

What a horrible thing to lay at God's doorstep. No tyrant in human history has committed such a heinous crime against humankind. (those created in his image) Who would do such a thing to their children?

]

Yes, to lay at God's doorstep helpless is indeed a very terrible thing. That's why Jesus gives us so many chances and warns us over and over again just how dreadful that day will be for those who reject him.

"It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." - Hebrews 10:31

But I don't know, maybe Josef Fritzl could tell you about how he kept his daughter in a basement for 24 years, raping her thousands of times, and making her give birth to 7 children. Ask him about why he burned one of the infants in an incinerator. If he dies giving God the finger, do you think he won't experience God's wrath?

Should justice not be served?

Who can survive the wrath of an infinite being poured out on them aside from God himself?

 

[hies]

If that is true, why would Jesus mislead us with the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus? Was the Rich Man conscious, or talking in his soul sleep? - LOL

] cc: @Ronald Nolette

They haven't experienced the final judgment. He was in Hades. Not the lake of fire.

 

[St. SteVen]

"It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." - Hebrews 10:31

...

Who can survive the wrath of an infinite being poured out on them aside from God himself?

You have created a god that is worse than the "humankind" whom you hate as well.

]

 

[St. SteVen]

They haven't experienced the final judgment. He was in Hades. Not the lake of fire.

I thought you believed in soul sleep. ??? Unconscious nonexistence in the afterlife. ??? No talking to father Abraham. Right?

]

 

[hies]

You have created a god that is worse than the "humankind" whom you hate as well.

]

If God is good, he must punish evil. We have all done evil. Some more than others.

I thought you believed in soul sleep. ??? Unconscious nonexistence in the afterlife. ??? No talking to father Abraham. Right?

]

Never said that. I said when they're cut off from God, they'll slowly wither up and die.

 

[hies]

You have created a god that is worse than the "humankind" whom you hate as well.

]

Look, it's very clear you don't believe in justice.

Before you ask "how is it fair to be cut off from God?"

Because he's not going to force anyone to be with him. He has given everyone an opportunity to know him, and they keep giving him the middle finger. If you do that for long enough; if you keep rejecting his call, you eventually blaspheme the holy spirit, which is the unforgivable sin.

Again, Satan and his angels had paradise. They couldn't have been given anything more. Yet they still chose to sin. So what more could God possibly do to stop them from sinning other than destroying them completely?

 

[St. SteVen]

Never said that. I said when they're cut off from God, they'll slowly wither up and die.

Do you have biblical support for that opinion?

]

 

[hies]

Do you have biblical support for that opinion?

]

"If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned." - John 15:6

 

[St. SteVen]

Look, it's very clear you don't believe in justice.

How did you arrive at that conclusion?

Because he's not going to force anyone to be with him.

Do you have biblical support for that opinion?

Again, Satan and his angels had paradise. They couldn't have been given anything more. Yet they still chose to sin. So what more could God possibly do to stop them from sinning other than destroying them completely?

Do Satan and his angels have knees to bow and tongues to confess? (acknowledge) Every knee will bow and every tongue acknowledge...

Philippians 2:10-11 NIV
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

]