There is only one true church

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Augustin56

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He has fired two conservative bishops recently. 83-year-old Archbishop Vigano & Bishop Strickland of Texas. I read quite abit about Vigano- he stated a lot of truths...
Well, I would suggest that it's hard to find someone that doesn't tell some truths.

Consider this principle, though. Suppose you and I were wine connoisseurs. And I gave you a glass of the world's absolute best and most expensive wine to drink. Would you drink it? Sure. But...what if, right before I handed it to you, I stirred in one half teaspoon of sewerage. Would you drink it then? No! Why? Because now it's just a glass of expensive sewerage!

The same applies to Christ's truth, which is an integrated whole, just as Christ is.

It only takes one heresy or one mortal sin to separate us from God. And if we die in that state, it is forever.
 

Augustin56

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I suppose I can go with that. The apostles prophecied, but Paul also taught some things which weren't from the Lord, but seemes to be his opinion. - so it's hard for me to consider it prophecy. Know what I mean?
I agree with you about the Word!

I've noted that and have read much of the apostolic church father's writings. I found them very interesting and clarifying, although they dont always agree. I wouldnt expect such a young church to agree on every matter, especially since there was a lot to digest, but basics are there. Apparently, hey still had blurry spots like we still do. With regard to oral teachings- yes! I wish I knew what they were. I have no idea.
Does the church say what those were? Two possibilities from reading ECF's- Mary had no children aside from Jesus- they were cousins and.. bread and wine become body of the Lord? Is that right? are there more?

It's a horrid mess if we go by these boards. My personal experience has beennothing like these boards, thank goodness. I hate to see the fighting over things that are secondary, and not salvational.

Yes, we didnt have the bible as we do now in every home- no doubt! I was just saying the other day- no wonder the catholic church was opposed to everyone reading the bible- look what happens when we do.. ha
There are aspects of Catholisism that I can't wrap my head around.. you've probably already heard them..
rosary, repetition
Mary praying- Jesus is our only mediator
Saints I respect them, but leave it there
purgatory

I havent been in the catholic church since I was a very young child.
Hey, PS95! I can probably help with those issues.

I usually try to avoid reinventing the wheel, so here are some good links that begin to answer some of your issues:

Rosary: Since When Is It Vain to Pray the Rosary?

Praying to Mary: Why Pray to Mary and Saints if You Can Pray to Omnipresent Jesus?

Saints: Saint Worship?

Purgatory: Is Purgatory in the Bible?

I have more, but these might be a good starting point.

As a bonus, I ran across this very interesting video about a Jewish man who became atheist, then God appeared to him and he converted:
If you have time, you migth enjoy it.
 

amadeus

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amadeus, I don't think you actually answered the question.
Sorry, what question? How did Christianity spread and how did people worship before there was a written Bible? Did not God accomplish that? Certainly, and He used men.

Isa 55:11So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

As God used the Apostle Paul, has He not also used others?


Ac 9:15But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
 

Augustin56

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Sorry, what question? How did Christianity spread and how did people worship before there was a written Bible? Did not God accomplish that? Certainly, and He used men.

Isa 55:11So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

As God used the Apostle Paul, has He not also used others?


Ac 9:15But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
Oh, sorry. How did Christianity spread and how did people worship before there was a written Bible?

Certainly God used men, inspired by Him. But, were they random people, who appointed themselves? Or was there some sort of methodology He used? For example, did Jesus (God) choose certain men (Apostles) to teach for about three years? And did these Apostles have anything to do with their successors, the bishops? (The bishops were students of the Apostles, of course.) And what about those bishops? Did they do likewise for their successors?

Or was it just a system where anyone could appoint themselves and declare that they felt called to be a teacher, a pastor, found a new religion, etc., and do whatever they imagined they were called to do, apart from what was always taught from the beginning?
 

Athanasius377

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How did Christianity spread/how did people worship Christ before the Bible was canonized almost 400 years later?
The Scriptures were in use long before early regional councils began to recognize what made up the canon. The earliest christians would have used the Greek translation of the OT, the Septuagint (LXX) while the NT was being written and then circulated. There is a workable NT canon by the mid second century as we have references to the NT books by Irenaeus, Ignatius, Barnabas and Justin. The Muratorian fragment in the late second century gives the first listing of books that make up the NT and that is 200 years before the first regional councils take up the issue. Rome doesn't officially define the canon until 1546.

As to worship we have a good description from Justin Martyr (100AD-165AD) in his first apology LXV-LXVIII which can be found here. Worship appears to be liturgical and ordered.
 

Taken

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There is only one true church

True that!

And that ONE True Church…
Has NO NAME…
Has NO brick, wood, mortar…

Has ONE express Head…Called by Christ Jesus..MY CHURCH.

Has ONE express Dwelling..WITHIN Christ Jesus and Christ Jesus within that dwelling.

And that ONE DWELLING…IS IN a mans circumcise new Heart.

And WHAT is WITHIN that ONE Dwelling…
IS a mans born again, quickened spirit WITH Gods Seed, Gods Spirit, Gods Truth, Gods Life, Gods Glory and Power.(Light).

Thus the saying…Gods got you Covered.

Glory unto our Great Lord God Almighty,
Taken
 

Augustin56

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The Scriptures were in use long before early regional councils began to recognize what made up the canon. The earliest christians would have used the Greek translation of the OT, the Septuagint (LXX) while the NT was being written and then circulated. There is a workable NT canon by the mid second century as we have references to the NT books by Irenaeus, Ignatius, Barnabas and Justin. The Muratorian fragment in the late second century gives the first listing of books that make up the NT and that is 200 years before the first regional councils take up the issue. Rome doesn't officially define the canon until 1546.

As to worship we have a good description from Justin Martyr (100AD-165AD) in his first apology LXV-LXVIII which can be found here. Worship appears to be liturgical and ordered.
But so were many other documents, writings, etc. The New Testament wasn't officially declared to be Holy Scripture until the late 4th century. The Church went through over 300 documents, letters, writing, etc., praying to the Holy Spirit for guidance, and came up with the 27 books out of the 300+ that we agree on is the New Testament today. Some of the documents that many were sure would make the cut didn't. For example, the Shepherd of Hermas and the Didacha were thought to be sure bets, but didn't make the cut.

With regard to liturgical worship, the focus was always the "breaking of the bread" (the Eucharist), which makes sense because true worship always involves a sacrifice. If all you're doing is reading Scriptures and talking about them, where's the sacrificial part?
 

Brakelite

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In order to substantiate their claims to ultimate authority and preeminence over other churches, Catholics must completely ignore the numerous churches, communities, and Christian individuals that were in every respect as apostolic as Catholics claim as being applicable only to themselves. Churches their forbears persecuted because they refused to surrender their independence to a man made system of mediatorial sacramentalism that replaced the true Christ and His intercessory ministration as High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary with an earthly imposter.
 

amadeus

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Oh, sorry. How did Christianity spread and how did people worship before there was a written Bible?

Certainly God used men, inspired by Him. But, were they random people, who appointed themselves?
They were not random and the inspired ones did not appoint themselves. God called them and those who responded to His call were used to accomplish His purpose.
Or was there some sort of methodology He used?
God always, I believe, had a plan. It was His plan.
For example, did Jesus (God) choose certain men (Apostles) to teach for about three years?
Indeed, He did choose certain men to teach.
And did these Apostles have anything to do with their successors, the bishops? (The bishops were students of the Apostles, of course.) And what about those bishops? Did they do likewise for their successors?
I believe that as God so used them they did have something to do with later people who were to teach [share with] people His Word... to accomplish His purpose. I believe in there has been and continues to be an unbroken thread... sharing the knowledge of God's Word with hungry hearts.

"One generation shall praise thy works to another, and shall declare thy mighty acts." Psalms 145:4

"The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day: the father to the children shall make known thy truth" Isaiah 38:19

"I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old: Which we have heard and known, and our fathers have told us. We will not hide them from their children, showing to the generation to come the praises of the LORD, and his strength, and his wonderful works that he hath done." Psalm 78:2-4

"Only take heed to thyself, and keep thy soul diligently, lest thou forget the things which thine eyes have seen, and lest they depart from thy heart all the days of thy life: but teach them thy sons, and thy sons' sons;" Deut 4:9

We have heard with our ears, O God, our fathers have told us, what work thou didst in their days, in the times of old." Psalm 44:1

I believe that God has always had a father available to tell a son who would listen. Remember Elijah's declaration!

"And he said, I have been very jealous for the LORD God of hosts: for the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away." I Kings 19:10

And remember God's response!

"Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him." I Kings 19:18

Just as God has preserved His Word for all of us, even so I also believe that He always had someone who had not bowed "unto Baal"
Or was it just a system where anyone could appoint themselves and declare that they felt called to be a teacher, a pastor, found a new religion, etc., and do whatever they imagined they were called to do, apart from what was always taught from the beginning?
No, God was always directing the choice of teachers and pastors and as they opened their hearts and minds using them for His purpose. That continues today. I sincerely believe in that verse I quoted before from Jeremiah [10:23].
Men without God's direction are walking blind... Remember what Jesus did here:

Mr 8:23And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought.
Mr 8:24And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking.
Mr 8:25After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly.
You see a formal church as the means, or perhaps as the primary means, which God established to improve the vision of men. I believe that God has used such churches [Catholic or other] in such a way, but I do not so limit God.
 
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Johann

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But so were many other documents, writings, etc. The New Testament wasn't officially declared to be Holy Scripture until the late 4th century. The Church went through over 300 documents, letters, writing, etc., praying to the Holy Spirit for guidance, and came up with the 27 books out of the 300+ that we agree on is the New Testament today. Some of the documents that many were sure would make the cut didn't. For example, the Shepherd of Hermas and the Didacha were thought to be sure bets, but didn't make the cut.

With regard to liturgical worship, the focus was always the "breaking of the bread" (the Eucharist), which makes sense because true worship always involves a sacrifice. If all you're doing is reading Scriptures and talking about them, where's the sacrificial part?
Historical Context and Development of the New Testament Canon
Early Circulation and Use:

In the early Christian communities, many writings were circulated, including letters from apostles, gospels, and other documents like the Shepherd of Hermas and the Didache. These writings were read in various churches and used for teaching and worship.
Criteria for Canonization:

The early church used several criteria to discern which writings were to be considered canonical (authoritative scripture):
Apostolic Origin: Writings attributed to the apostles or their close associates.
Orthodoxy: Consistency with the accepted teaching and doctrine of the church.
Catholicity: Widespread usage and acceptance among the early Christian communities.
Liturgical Use: Regular reading in the context of worship services.
Early Lists and Church Fathers:

Various early church fathers and councils provided lists of authoritative books. Some of the most notable contributions include:
Marcion of Sinope (mid-2nd century): Compiled a canon that excluded the Old Testament and some New Testament writings. His efforts prompted the church to clarify its own canon.
Muratorian Fragment (late 2nd century): An early list of New Testament books, though incomplete and somewhat different from the final canon.
Origen (early 3rd century): A church father who provided lists of accepted books and noted disagreements.
Eusebius of Caesarea (early 4th century): Classified books into recognized, disputed, and spurious categories in his "Ecclesiastical History."
Official Recognition:

The process of formal recognition culminated in the late 4th century:
Council of Laodicea (363 AD): An early regional council that provided a list of canonical books, excluding Revelation.
Council of Hippo (393 AD) and Council of Carthage (397 AD): These North African councils provided lists that match the current 27-book New Testament canon.
Athanasius of Alexandria: In his Festal Letter of 367 AD, Athanasius provided a list identical to the current New Testament canon.
Excluded Writings:

Some early Christian writings, like the Shepherd of Hermas and the Didache, were highly regarded and used by some communities but were ultimately not included in the canon. Reasons for exclusion included:
Lack of apostolic authorship.
Limited or regional usage.
Theological content that was seen as less authoritative or secondary compared to canonical writings.
Conclusion
The New Testament canon was not officially closed until the late 4th century after extensive discussion, prayer, and discernment by the early church. The church considered numerous writings and, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, recognized the 27 books that now constitute the New Testament. This process ensured that the canon reflected writings that were apostolic, orthodox, widely accepted, and used in liturgical practice.
 

PS95

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Well, I would suggest that it's hard to find someone that doesn't tell some truths.

Consider this principle, though. Suppose you and I were wine connoisseurs. And I gave you a glass of the world's absolute best and most expensive wine to drink. Would you drink it? Sure. But...what if, right before I handed it to you, I stirred in one half teaspoon of sewerage. Would you drink it then? No! Why? Because now it's just a glass of expensive sewerage!

The same applies to Christ's truth, which is an integrated whole, just as Christ is.

It only takes one heresy or one mortal sin to separate us from God. And if we die in that state, it is forever.
Jws used that on my family but it was one drop of poison in a glass of water. Then they proceeded to feed my parents TOTAL POISON while claiming it was not.
 

Stumpmaster

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FYI, the official name of the Catholic Church isn't the "Roman Catholic Church" but just the "Catholic Church."
My post stated as much. History shows things going so awry that a distinction had to be made between the early Christian assemblies and the pagan state religion of the Roman Empire that later assimilated Christianity, portrayed in Revelation as one of the heads of the beast from the sea.
 
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Aunty Jane

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She implies that going off the OT alone is sufficient "because Scripture"..but then we'd all be Jews. Literally the OT alone is the Torah, a whole separate religion which we know as Judaism.
Excuse me.....but what religion was Jesus? I assure you that he was not Catholic. He did not come to start a new religion but to clean up the old one because it had been horribly corrupted, just like Christendom is horribly corrupted in the same way today, and by the same enemy.

Jeremiah had prophesied that a “new covenant” would be instituted to God’s people.....one that was “NOT like the old one”, (Jer 31:31-33) so the Jewish leaders knew this this, but fought against any change because of their own wicked hearts and indoctrinated beliefs. They would fight tooth and nail to prevent any change to their own comfortable status.

Jesus was very vocal about their fate, (Matt 32:33) and their disgusting past (Matt 23:37-39)...those who stoned the prophets that God had sent to correct them were still trying to do so.....and with that final act, they sealed their own fate.

Those who rail against God’s people today will experience the same outcome. Why else would Jesus warn us about that very thing?

John 15:18-21...
“If the world hates you, you know that it has hated me before it hated you. 19 If you were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because you are no part of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, for this reason the world hates you. 20 Keep in mind the word I said to you: A slave is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have observed my word, they will also observe yours. 21 But they will do all these things against you on account of my name, because they do not know the One who sent me.”

This hatred is spewed by those who do not know the true God and who have refused to love the truth, but instead accept the lies, and carry on their vitriol.....these will pay the price. But they will never stop any genuine “sheep” from hearing the voice of the Fine Shepherd.....

One of the things God hates the most is those who send contentions among brothers....who try to subvert their faith by acting as the devil’s tools....he has always has those willing dupes....completely blinded to the truth. (2 Cor 4:3-4)

Your avatar gives you away......you condone bloodshed, under the banner of the cross.....something a genuine Christian could not do. Our weapons are not fleshly but spiritual.....if you need fleshly weapons, then you are not a follower of Christ. (2 Cor 10:3-5; Rom 12:17-21)
Those who refer to Jesus telling his disciples to buy swords, miss the whole intent of that recommendation.
It was to prove that even though they were armed, they would not resort to violence....as Jesus said...if you “live by the sword you will die by the sword”. He rebuked Peter for using his sword and healed the man he wounded.

Accurate Bible knowledge does not allow us to take excursions into false ideas created by a corrupted church system intent on currying favor with the world. (James 4:4)
“Few” will be found on “the road to life” for very good reasons.....not obvious to the deluded masses. (Matt 7:13-14)
 

Augustin56

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Jws used that on my family but it was one drop of poison in a glass of water. Then they proceeded to feed my parents TOTAL POISON while claiming it was not.
Well, I think the principle is a good principle. How it applies certainly varies. Any principle can be misused, I think.

I look at it this way... If I was a 2nd grade teacher and had 100 students and gave them a 1 problem math quiz: 2 + 2 = ____ and got 100 different answers, how many, at most, could be correct?

That's kind of what we have with all the thousands of Christian groups at present. The challenge is to find the one that is correct. If you don't pick the one that existed first, then you have to prove where that one changed/erred from the original message, and how the original correct message came hundreds of years later in the game.
 

Deus vult

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God inspired men shared what they had received from God with others. God has never been out of the picture. Consider:

Joh 14:21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

And also...

Mt 5:6
Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
So then you are in agreement with the Orthodox and Catholics on apostolic succession. "God inspired men"..were the apostles not God inspired men who shared what they received from Jesus who is God? What about all the other bishops that succeeded the apostles? Were they also not God inspired men who received what the apostles received from Jesus? There's no shame in admitting the truth..in fact it is a virtue in a society under the dictatorship of relativism where the only heresy is to think there is such a thing as a heresy.
 
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Deus vult

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1. Mary is utterly and completely dead to this day.
2. You have rocks in your head if you believe a mortal sinful women can give birth to God
3. Yes, you need our prayers but not in ways which you in your current state would find helpful
F2F
1. Mary is in heaven, therefore she is not dead because God is of the living. What do you think eternal life refers to?
2. All things are possible with God. If you think it's nonsensical for a mortal woman to give birth to God, then why would it also not be nonsensical for Jesus to be both human and divine? Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight.
3. "Yes, you need our prayers." Period, that's it right there. The fact that you admitted that means there's no reason to be biased against Mary or the saints praying for us, either.
 

face2face

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Those in heaven are more alive than we are. Consider, for example, that Jesus teaches that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is “not God not of the dead, but of the living” (Matt. 22:32; see also 22:23-33). In addition, Moses and Elijah are alive to Jesus at the Transfiguration and converse with him, even though their earthly deaths had occurred many years before (see Matt. 17:1-8).
“Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David (Mary etc etc) that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. Acts 2:29

Yet another believer who knows not the true Gospel.
F2F
 

Deus vult

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The Scriptures were in use long before early regional councils began to recognize what made up the canon. The earliest christians would have used the Greek translation of the OT, the Septuagint (LXX) while the NT was being written and then circulated. There is a workable NT canon by the mid second century as we have references to the NT books by Irenaeus, Ignatius, Barnabas and Justin. The Muratorian fragment in the late second century gives the first listing of books that make up the NT and that is 200 years before the first regional councils take up the issue. Rome doesn't officially define the canon until 1546.

As to worship we have a good description from Justin Martyr (100AD-165AD) in his first apology LXV-LXVIII which can be found here. Worship appears to be liturgical and ordered.
But they were not in use anywhere close to the extent that one might think they were and most people back then were also illiterate, hence the prominence of iconography in churches. Less than 8% of the population of the ancient world was able to read and write and it would have most likely been the wealthy. Going off on a tangent here...tradition still preceded scripture and the fact that the OT alone is what the Torah is, rebukes the argument that scripture somehow preceded tradition just because of the OT. It falls in the same boat as the Baghavad Gita of the Hindus which was also around before Christianity came to be. There's hardly any account of Jesus writing anything other than writing something in the sand. He didn't hand the apostles a Bible nor is there any record that he even told them to write one. And just because he quoted the Jewish holy books, doesn't mean Christianity started with the OT. It started with Christ.

Those who embrace sola scriptura do not fully embrace it either as they claim. Most believe in the doctrine of the Trinity and they ignore verses such as Thessalonians 2:15 and Exodus 30:1
 
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Deus vult

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“Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David (Mary etc etc) that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. Acts 2:29

Yet another believer who knows not the true Gospel.
F2F
He died physically, doesn't mean he's not alive in heaven. This is what happens when you take Bible verses out of context as a result of a lack of church authority and tradition that's passed down via apostolic succession. Every denomination of Christianity is an interpretation of the Bible, that is the fruit of Protestantism. Protestantism has been responsible for way more atheists and agnostics than the Catholics and Orthodox. The Catholic and Orthodox are growing, while people are leaving Protestantism either to become atheist or find their way back home in the church established by Christ.

Who is converting to what, more? Catholic/Orthodox --> Protestant/Atheism/Agnosticism or Protestant --> Catholic/Orthodox/Atheism/Agnosticism?
 
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Augustin56

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“Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David (Mary etc etc) that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. Acts 2:29

Yet another believer who knows not the true Gospel.
F2F
You are confusing bodily death with life in heaven. The saints in heaven are far more alive than we are because they are perfectly united to Christ.
 
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