OSAS : Gnostic Heresy

[face2face]

Unfortunately,understandably, you didn't read the 1st Peter chapter so to realize the Proverbs verse relationship.

The foundation of the Gospel truth is solid as a rock.

From there everything in scripture constructs the interrelationship that is,defined,and embodies the grace filled living truth of God. And God's plan of and for free irrevocable Salvation.

Your labeling the Gospel as Universalism is false.

Where did I label the Gospel as Universal?...the Elect know many are called but few are chosen!

Your comment "free irrevocable Salvation"...by this, do you mean God cannot deny salvation? He becomes a debtor to mankind?

For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” Paul's word here in Romans 9:15 are then false in your eyes?

Maybe you are reading things into my posts which are not there?

F2F

 

[BlessedPeace]

Where did I label the Gospel as Universal?...the Elect know many are called but few are chosen!

Your comment "free irrevocable Salvation"...by this, do you mean God cannot deny salvation? He becomes a debtor to mankind?

For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” Paul's word here in Romans 9:15 are then false in your eyes?

Maybe you are reading things into my posts which are not there?

F2F

I'm talking about Gospel Eternal Irrevocable Salvation.


You replied. I'm reading what you allegedly wrote in your post #100:
"...It's similar to the Universalists who make salvation easy (they make God a debtor!) when in reality the elect are so called because of how they have responded (out of obedience) and not because God has wholesaled Salvation."

 

[face2face]

I'm talking about Gospel Eternal Irrevocable Salvation.


You replied. I'm reading what you allegedly wrote in your post #100:
"...It's similar to the Universalists who make salvation easy (they make God a debtor!) when in reality the elect are so called because of how they have responded (out of obedience) and not because God has wholesaled Salvation."

Yes, OSAS believers are a step closer to Universalists...a far cry from the truth!

So you make God a debtor? What I mean by this is you force God to save by your doctrine?

This is why the common Ransom Theory of Atonement is false. A false understanding of the redemptive work in Christ leads to this idea that Salvation is irrevocable which is why I asked Rita and yourself to speak to 1 Peter 4...and after many posts you both are yet to do so.

19 Therefore let those who suffer according to God’s will entrust their souls (lives) to a faithful Creator while doing good. 1 Peter 4:19.

Can you see the obligation on the believer?
Faith & Works working together?

If the righteous are scarcely saved what does that say about those who:

1. Hold wrong teaching and will not be corrected in righteousness?
2. Live a disobedient life

Who is the judge of such matters and what will be the outcome for those who arrogantly enter the judgement with OSAS beliefs?

"But Lord I did this in your name..."
"Depart from me....!

F2F

 

[BlessedPeace]

Yes, OSAS believers are a step closer to Universalists...a far cry from the truth!

So now you're admitting to the Universalism claim you previously claimed wasn't implied in your other post?

The rest of your reply is your repeating errant information that has no relationship to the Gospel.

So you make God a debtor?

Of course not. While you imply God is a seller. And is dishonest. And retracts his gifts.

Your ideas are not related at all to the truth.

 

[face2face]

@everyone

The core issue with OSAS is the idea that God must save - forced to save - indebted to save. This totally removes salvation from being an extended gift. Salvation cannot be a gift if it's owed!

For instance, in-between the suffering Peter expounds in 1 Peter 4 and Glory which follows, is the Gift of Grace. OSAS believers go straight to Glory, regardless of the need for suffering and mercy / grace.

The OSAS believers will not speak to the fate of the disobedient as Peter states because they know it will be far worse than the suffering of the righteous! Their doctrine prohibits the possibly of rejection!

The point being made is this - God's discernment on a believer becomes pointless/invalid as OSAS believe they are already saved regardless of God's viewpoint. They disable God's judgements in leu of their own selfish need for salvation.

F2F

 

[face2face]

So now you're admitting to the Universalism claim you previously claimed wasn't implied in your other post?

No, OSAS and Universalism are closely related - one is further down the road of error than the other. This has always been the inference.

The rest of your reply is your repeating errant information that has no relationship to the Gospel.

It's truth as we are finding.

Of course not. While you imply God is a seller. And is dishonest. And retracts his gifts.

A seller? Do go on....explain yourself!

Your ideas are not related at all to the truth.

Yes, I am the one supporting my beliefs with Scripture and you are denying their claims.

Looks clear to me

F2F

 

[face2face]

If I was a OSAS believer I would immediately need to remove all Scripture that pertains to Judgement.

however,

Peter in 1 Peter 4 shows us a group who will be judged by God 1 Peter 4:17 and they will barely be saved 1 Peter 4:18!!!, and therefore they should give great attention to avoid being among those who will be condemned. 1 Peter 4:18.

Its the later part of Peters teaching which the OSAS believer cannot speak to or consider. Salvation is by faith and through faith and its by promise and through promise, its not a debt paid!

F2F

 

[Phoneman777]

I leave you to your religion.

I guess the part about "lead them AGAIN unto repentance" - which proves that a PRIOR repentance had already been made - was too much for you to contemplate, yes?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

If I was a OSAS believer I would immediately need to remove all Scripture that pertains to Judgement.

however,

Peter in 1 Peter 4 shows us a group who will be judged by God 1 Peter 4:17 and they will barely be saved 1 Peter 4:18!!!, and therefore they should give great attention to avoid being among those who will be condemned. 1 Peter 4:18.

Its the later part of Peters teaching which the OSAS believer cannot speak to or consider. Salvation is by faith and through faith and its by promise and through promise, its not a debt paid!

F2F

No you would not

You have to remove it all if your NOSAS.

You have to think you will nto be judged in your unbelief

 

[JLB]

00:01:36 "Believers in OSAS invariably take the high ground historically as though they're defending the historic faith. This is incredibly dishonest. That's because before Augustine's novel teachings in the early 5th century, absolutely no one in the early church believed in once saved always saved. I know of no patristic scholar or church historian who disputes that fact."

Amen.


If anyone actually reads the scriptures for themselves, it's easy to see that there is no where that the bible teaches OSAS.


Jesus actually warned His disciples about remaining in Him.


“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:1-6

• Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;

These people were in Christ then removed from Christ by God the Father who Jesus describes as the Vinedresser.

• “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit;

Those who remain in Christ will bear much fruit, however the point is to remain in Christ. As I have shown.


Here is how this same Apostle John instructs us to remain in Christ -

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

• If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

The contextual teaching here is about those who are in Christ.





JLB

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Amen.


If anyone actually reads the scriptures for themselves, it's easy to see that there is no where that the bible teaches OSAS.


Jesus actually warned His disciples about remaining in Him.


“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:1-6

• Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;

These people were in Christ then removed from Christ by God the Father who Jesus describes as the Vinedresser.

• “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit;

Those who remain in Christ will bear much fruit, however the point is to remain in Christ. As I have shown.


Here is how this same Apostle John instructs us to remain in Christ -

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

• If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

The contextual teaching here is about those who are in Christ.





JLB

The passage you referenced talks about producing fruit. Not about salvation.

No passage talks about OSAS?

John 3? John 4? John 5 and 6? Eph 1? Eph 2? 1 John?

come on. How Can anyone with a straight face claim the Bible does nto talk about eternal security, when our salvation is solely based Ont he cross. We can;t earn salvation, if you can earn it, you can;t un earn it.

 

[Phoneman777]

so your sinless?

First, know that 1 John 1:8-10 KJV is not "proof" that Christians keep on sinning - it's talking about people like Donald Trump who was asked if he'd ever asked God for forgiveness and he replied he didn't think he'd ever done anything that required it...he was saying he had no sin.

Secondly, the Just Man certainly falls 7 times and rises up, but the Presumptuous Man deliberately climbs down into the pit of sin, sits down comfortably among the filth, swats away the uplifting hand of Jesus, and pushes his OSAS License to Sin in His face.

By definition and default, the entire OSAS License to Sin crowd is on a multibillion presumptuous man march on their way to hell.

 

[Phoneman777]

No they did not claim Gods promise. they rejected the one sent, Because like you and most religious people. You think your ok, youi did not need saved,,

How about you ask before you disagree?

They absolutely claimed the promises of God: His blessings, His deliverance from their Roman yoke, their return to national greatness, eternal rule over the Gentiles, etc.

Your decieved in saying this,

A pharisee was a NOSAS person. they thought that had to obey a set of rules. and follow religious instrictions, or they would be lost.

Thats you my friend. Not me..

I didn't say they were OSAS so please stop with this strawman nonsense.

Go back and read what I said and then admit the OSAS License to Sin crowd is absolutely guilty of doing the same thing the ancient Pharisees did: claim the promises of God while rejecting the condition by which they can be claimed: repentance.

You modern day Pharisees are actually worse because at least the ancient Pharisees claimed they kept the law while you guys wear your rebellion like a badge of honor.

 

[JLB]

The passage you referenced talks about producing fruit. Not about salvation.

No passage talks about OSAS?

John 3? John 4? John 5 and 6? Eph 1? Eph 2? 1 John?

come on. How Can anyone with a straight face claim the Bible does nto talk about eternal security, when our salvation is solely based Ont he cross. We can;t earn salvation, if you can earn it, you can;t un earn it.

Yes, we can not earn salvation. However that's not at all what I'm referring to.

This passage is about people who are already "in Christ"; people who are already saved.


Jesus actually warned His disciples about remaining "in Him".


“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:1-6

• Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;

These people were in Christ then removed from Christ by God the Father who Jesus describes as the Vinedresser.

• “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit;

Those who remain in Christ will bear much fruit, however the point is to remain "in Christ".


Here is how this same Apostle John instructs us to remain in Christ -

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

 

[ScottA]

I guess the part about "lead them AGAIN unto repentance" - which proves that a PRIOR repentance had already been made - was too much for you to contemplate, yes?

No, you just got it wrong, but are too stiff necked to hear correction.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

How about you ask before you disagree?

They absolutely claimed the promises of God: His blessings, His deliverance from their Roman yoke, their return to national greatness, eternal rule over the Gentiles, etc.

Let me help you some

The Palestinian covenant did not assure anyone would be saved that is where they failed. The assumed what was not true. And rejected the promises of god and suffered the penalties promised in lev 26 in 70 ad when God again scattered them and utterly destroyed their cities because they failed to Claim the promise of his God and rejected his
Messiah

I didn't say they were OSAS so please stop with this strawman nonsense.

I never said you did. I said they were Nosas. And never claimed you said anything about them I just compared them to you So stop With your accusations

Go back and read what I said and then admit the OSAS License to Sin crowd is absolutely guilty of doing the same thing the ancient Pharisees did: claim the promises of God while rejecting the condition by which they can be claimed: repentance.

Nope OSAS trust God in his infinite grace knowing we have nothing to offer God. Like the tax collector we fell to our knees unworthy

You the one who thinks you are worthy not me. You’re the Pharisee not me. You excuse your own sin while you judge me for acknowledging my sin Shame on you

You modern day Pharisees are actually worse because at least the ancient Pharisees claimed they kept the law while you guys wear your rebellion like a badge of honor.

Your the modern day Pharisee dude your the one pumping your chest not me

You practice ohony Christianity like the Pharisees did. The tax collector went home justified not the self righteous Pharisee

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yes, we can not earn salvation. However that's not at all what I'm referring to.

This passage is about people who are already "in Christ"; people who are already saved.


Jesus actually warned His disciples about remaining "in Him".


“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:1-6

• Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;

These people were in Christ then removed from Christ by God the Father who Jesus describes as the Vinedresser.

• “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit;

Those who remain in Christ will bear much fruit, however the point is to remain "in Christ".


Here is how this same Apostle John instructs us to remain in Christ -

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

You say your earning then in the same paragraph say YOU must DO something to stay saved

I would reread your words and maybe you will see what I see

John is speaking about producing fruit. Not contradicting himself and saying we do not have eternal life we have conditional Life by what we do

 

[BlessedPeace]

You say your earning then in the same paragraph say YOU must DO something to stay saved

I would reread your words and maybe you will see what I see

John is speaking about producing fruit. Not contradicting himself and saying we do not have eternal life we have conditional Life by what we do

What is rarely understood by those opponents of Eternal Salvation is that all that exists is of and from God.


Therein,the branches parable isn't talking about laboring even through strict obedience to remain saved.

Rather,it is referring to those who do not bear fruit being those who are of the same source as all else.
Yet,are not bearing the fruit afforded by being resurrected to life through Salvation from being dead in Spirit.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

What is rarely understood by those opponents of Eternal Salvation is that all that exists is of and from God.


Therein,the branches parable isn't talking about laboring even through strict obedience to remain saved.

Rather,it is referring to those who do not bear fruit being those who are of the same source as all else.
Yet,are not bearing the fruit afforded by being resurrected to life through Salvation from being dead in Spirit.

Yes at the judgment day these would be those who had wood hay and straw as their reward. When tried by fire they have ashes. But they are still saved even as through fire

I pray I have more than ashes to show. I hope we all do. Amen

 

[ScottA]

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

• Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;

What is rarely understood by those opponents of Eternal Salvation is that all that exists is of and from God.


Therein,the branches parable isn't talking about laboring even through strict obedience to remain saved.

Rather,it is referring to those who do not bear fruit being those who are of the same source as all else.
Yet,are not bearing the fruit afforded by being resurrected to life through Salvation from being dead in Spirit.

This is a great mystery, eluding many:

John 15:1-6 refers to being "in Christ"--in the flesh. While salvation is "in Christ" in spirit.​

In other words, there is a flesh and blood way to "follow" Christ, and there is a spiritual way to "follow" Christ. Those who are eluded and do not understand, have not reconciled that all who are "taken away" are taken away "in Christ" on the cross (before salvation).