Elect or Not Elect: Why ALL Should Be Alarmed

[Eternally Grateful]

You can probably figure it out, if you, you know, actually think about it. :) But, hey, I'm here to help if you like... :) You may possibly already do this ~ understand Scripture as a whole in this way ~ but it seems to me you don't now see Scripture as covenantal ~ and incremental, cumulative ~ but rather dispensational. The former is the way it should be seen.

Dispensational thinking is just putting history (And future) in bullet point form. We take different aspects of history (like before the fall of man) give it a bullet point, then attempt to sub point all of the things that pertain to that period of time. It is nothing more or less than that. I am not so sure why people get all bent out of shape with people doing this, it helps them to understand human history and How God dealt with his creation better.
I know when I teach, I lay my teaching out in the same way. people do it all the time. Why it is seen as evil or a bad thing by many when we do it with the bible just really boggles my mind.

Now I know there are some really wacko so called dispensational beliefs out there (like that Israel was saved by the law. and in the tribulation period they will return to be saved by law) but that is a minor sect. most of us do not believe this, we believe all men of all ages (except the age of innocence when man did not need to be saved) were saved the same way. Through faith in God.

Yes, but they weren't just for those specific people, at least in the sense in which you understand these "specific people" to be.

If you can read the actual promises I am speaking of and say it was not for a specific group of people,. then I do not know what to tell you. God must be confused. or wanted to confuse us. Because it literally says, TO YOUR PEOPLE. Through THIS LINEAGE (Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.)

And all of the prophets speak of the return of this nation after it had fallen and been compl;etely destroyed. and when this happens ALL the nations of the world will know the God of Israel is the God of hope and promise.

Hmmm, that question is... ambiguous. I mean, not intentionally, I'm sure. But still... So:

• Do they matter? Yes, of course.
• Are they equal? Well that would need some clarifying to answer yes or no, so for now, it's a yes and no, which is unsatisfying, I know. But in some sense yes, and in some sense no. I can explain... :) But I'll leave that for now and address it only if you ask me to.

For salvation, I agree, they do not matter
For the people to whom they were given, They matter greatly. If someone made me a promise, and it was a non conditional promise (again, the mosaic was the only conditional) then I would expect that person to keep his promise. Its on Him to keep his promise, His reputation is at stake, failure for him to keep his promise reflects poorly on him, no matter what I did.

All have they're absolute validity... if understood in their proper sense. I think I've been very clear on this.

I think you think this, But you do not show this in what you say..

Of course you do. :)


Every covenant made by God in Scripture has its purpose, and the one unified Covenant ~ in Christ ~ incorporates them all and will finally be fully manifested in the age to come... through and in and with the Person of Jesus.

But not all of them point to the way of salvation. Covenants, like any agreement, is a person making a promise to another person, or a group of people. or two people or groups coming together to make an agreement between both parties (if you do this, I will do that and vice versa)
there are to types. in effect

1. An "I will" covenant, which is one sided, it is a promise that someone makes to another that they will do something, asking for nothing in return

examples of this covenant is the Abrahamic covenant, the covenant with Noah, The Palestinian or land promise, The Davidic covenant

2. A dual covenant between two parties. each party agrees that they will provide an agreed to service, If one party fails to keep their end of the agreement, the covenant is broken.

An example of this is the mosaic covenant.

we have to put each covenant in its proper context and group. Group number one is based on God. God said I WILL. or I GIVE. his reputation is at stake if he breaks the covenant

The mosaic was a temporary covenant, one in which mankind could not keep. so it was a flawed covenant, replaced by the new covenant, in Christs blood. which fulfilled that covenant and given to all who believe. be it jew or gentile. Which by the way, Is an "I Will" covenant, as God did not say I will do this (save you eternally), He did not say I will save you, as long as you keep doing this)


This is getting long so going to break it up

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yes, but they are all intimately connected, and will finally be made full together and are thus one. Like a perfect diamond, you could say, perfectly white, perfectly clear, containing many facets, and without exclusions.

Wrong. They are not connected. God is obligated to keep every one of them, He even kept the mosaic (one we did not and could not keep)

Not sure what you mean here; I would say none were conditional. And I would say that all "led to" the new covenant...

Again, you would be wrong.

What does God giving a nation of people a plot of land, and saying as long as you obe me, I will bless you. But if you disobey, I will punish you, 7 times more each time, up to and including national defeat and total destruction of their cities. But if they repent God will remember the land and his covenant with the fathers have to do with the salvation of any person on earth? Nothing!!!

Actually, I would say it this way, that each of the lesser covenants were new and better expressions of the previous lesser covenants (and did not nullify the previous lesser covenants, of course) and thus cumulatively revealed what the New Covenant would finally look like.

I do not see how you can look at each covenant and even come to this conclusion.

Well, now the covenant made with Abraham included a people, descendants, who would together number as the stars of heaven, the grains of sand on the seashore... an innumerable multitude, and that covenant is certainly not null and void and never will be, so the same is true of the land covenant. No, the land covenant made with Abraham had a lesser more immediate manifestation (the Israelites ~ minus Moses, who only saw it but did not enter it~ entered into the Promised Land after the Exodus, and it will have a fuller long-range manifestation when Jesus comes back ~ He is also the Greater Moses ~ and with Him we inherit the earth, the Greater Promised Land. So the God made to Abraham was what we call layered, which is a general concept regarding most of the prophecies of Scripture.

Your first error is saying it is immediate. God said forever. In all generations, as an eternal covenant, it is still binding today. Only the final form of disciplin in Lev 26 is in effect. Until Israel repents. which many OT prophets,

1. Is 11 says it will happen for the second time (it has only happened once in the past)
11. It shall come to pass in that day That the Lord shall set His hand again the second time To recover the remnant of His people who are left, From Assyria and Egypt, From Pathros and Cush, From Elam and Shinar, From Hamath and the [d]islands of the sea.
12 He will set up a banner for the nations, And will assemble the outcasts of Israel, And gather together the dispersed of Judah From the four corners of the earth.

2. Jeremiah says he will regather the remnant from where he scattered them, and they will return and he will lead them as a Shepperd

7 For thus says the Lord: “Sing with gladness for Jacob, And shout among the chief of the nations; Proclaim, give praise, and say, ‘O Lord, save Your people,
The remnant of Israel!’
8 Behold, I will bring them from the north country, And gather them from the ends of the earth, Among them the blind and the lame, The woman with child And the one who labors with child, together; A great throng shall return there.
9 They shall come with weeping, And with supplications I will lead them. I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters,
In a straight way in which they shall not stumble; For I am a Father to Israel, And Ephraim is My firstborn.
10 “Hear the word of the Lord, O nations, And declare it in the [c]isles afar off, and say, He who scattered Israel will gather him, And keep him as a shepherd does his flock.’
11 For the Lord has redeemed Jacob, And ransomed him from the hand of one stronger than he.
12 Therefore they shall come and sing in the height of Zion,

3. Ez 37 says he will regather both the northern and southern kingdoms (the norther - Israel- was destroyed by Assyria, the southern - Judah was last scattered by Rome in 70 AD. And he will make them one nation again, Never to be torn into two again, And they will cease from their sins and worshiping their idols. and he will rule over them.

12 Therefore prophesy and say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Behold, O My people, I will open your graves and cause you to come up from your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13 Then you shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O My people, and brought you up from your graves. 14 I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I, the Lord, have spoken it and performed it,” says the Lord.’ ”

21 “Then say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; 22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again. 23 They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God.

4. In Hosea, God says Israel will suffer many days without a king or ruler. Without a religion or a place to worship and without true or false religious practices. but after this, God will return them, when they return (repent) and seek the lord..

4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred pillar, without ephod or teraphim. 5 Afterward the children of Israel shall return and seek the Lord their God and David their king. They shall fear the Lord and His goodness in the latter days.

5. Zech tells us he will regather them after he redeems them, He will bring them back, because he has mercy on them, Because they shall remember him (literally they repent)

Zech 10: 6“I will strengthen the house of Judah, And I will save the house of Joseph. I will bring them back, Because I have mercy on them. They shall be as though I had not cast them aside; For I am the Lord their God, And I will hear them.
7 Those of Ephraim shall be like a mighty man, And their heart shall rejoice as if with wine. Yes, their children shall see it and be glad;
Their heart shall rejoice in the Lord.
8 I will whistle for them and gather them, For I will redeem them; And they shall increase as they once increased.
9 “I will sow them among the peoples, And they shall remember Me in far countries; They shall live, together with their children, And they shall return.
10 I will also bring them back from the land of Egypt, And gather them from Assyria. I will bring them into the land of Gilead and Lebanon, Until no more room is found for them.

6. even in the NT. Jesus Says they will be scattered, and this scattering will come to an end. Until the time of the gentiles is fulfilled.

Luke 21: 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

7. Paul in romans 11. says this same thing, that blindness of Israel has happened until the fullness of the gentile shall come. THEN All Israel will be saved. Just as all the prophets and even Jesus himself said they would.

I am sorry bor. I can not look at everything above (and there is alot more) and believe any different. The church was never scattered because of her sins, The church was never dispersed or broken up into 2 nations. The church was never given a plot of land it could call its own. There is just no way to try to insert the church into the above prophecies.



I have gone to long again so will cut this up.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Not replaced... Christ's Church includes all those of Israel ~ God's Israel ~ across all time... of every tongue, tribe and nation.

Replacement theology teaches the church now posses all the promises Given to the nation of Israel. this is a false theology.

I just quoted... Wow. Again, "(we) Gentiles... were at (one) time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world... (b)ut now in Christ Jesus (we Gentiles) who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ... no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God..." (Ephesians 2:11-22).

This does not prove your point. Paul is using the argument to disprove the jewish thinking that they were an automatic in, and they still had the mindset that gentiles were dirty and could never be saved.

Context is your enemy

In... your opinion.

Which you have not disproven

No, that's the spin you put on it.

My friend, I can just read what you say, I put no spin on things..

I agree.


Yes. God predestines some to be conformed to the image of His son. This is the only predestination ever spoken of in God's Word.

So you do not believe people are predestined to hell? That they are not, like Esau, born to be sent to hell with no option of ever coming to Christ?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You reject Gods Word, because you have been deceived by the false Arminian theology. So you're unable to rightly divide the Word of God, you don't have any discernment. Your approach to Gods Word is to alter it to make it say what your Arminian theology dictates.

You're accusing God of being the author of confusion, just because of your ignorance of His Word. God doesn't contradict Himself as you're suggesting He does. There are many stupid persons who take Gods Word out of it's intended context and push their doctrine of Demons.

Now if you what to vindicate yourself, you need to list all the various Biblical meanings of terms, "ALL MEN" and "The WORLD". You can only see scripture through the distorted Arminian lens, you need to understand that Arminius can't override what Gods said.

You falsely claim that words are only used in a single context in the entire Bible, that alone condemns your theology as false, let alone all your other claims.

lol.. You are decieved my friend. You can not back out of your arminian vs calvin war you have conjured up in your head. why are you even here? jus tto attack people who do not agree with you?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

There you go again, demonstrating that you don't know the basic facts about scripture. That is because your mind has been poisoned by the Demonic Doctrine of Jacob Arminius, you really can't read any scripture without looking at it through the Demonic Arminius lens.
You have placed your eternal security in the hands of an evil man named Jacob Arminius. You reject everything that Jesus and Hi Apostles taught and cling to your idol, good luck with that.
The problem with you Arminians is, you never consider the context of the scriptures you abuse. You always pluck them out of their intended context, and make them say something other that what they actually mean. God promised to cast all those who do thins into the lake of fire where they will be tormented forever.

Dude, Get off your high horse. Try to listen to what she said not attack her.

You are offering no rebuttle to anything she has said, only attack.

Again, Do you have a purpose? Are you going to beat us all into submission?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Please take that Demonic Arminian lens off and ask the Holy Spirit to help you understand what Gods Word is saying. You will never understand it, while you use that distorted foggy lens.

I don't know what you call it when someone refutes what God said, and contradicts Him by claiming a completely different message. But I call it accusing God of lying.

You read everything backwards, you claim that grace is not applied until the person fabricates faith within their totally depraved nature which hates God. God says He saves by grace, before pone is born but you say God is a liar and twist it i reverse and claim that you are saved by your faith. That doctrine is from the pits of hell.

You didn't show me any passages that say you are saved after you exercise your faith. It's just your Demonic Arminian Theology, preventing you from understanding what God clearly said. He said He saved His people before He created the world, but you accuse God of being a liar and push your false gospel over Gods Word.

You still haven't explained why the worlds greatest minds, have chosen to burn forever while rejecting the free offer of eternal paradise. Only a super stupid person would believe that the smartest people in the world chose to suffer in eternal hellfire. That is the most ridiculous thing anyone has ever put forward. The fact that you believe that, exposes your Demonic theology.

The true option is, you don't know why God does what He does. He is a mystery, and only fools try to get into His business. He warned us in many scriptures to keep our noses out of His business, or He will cast us into the lake of fire. Who gave you the right to put God on trial, a totally depraved fallen wicked sinner wanting to put God on trial. I can't thing of anything more foolish or dangerous.

lol. Again, no rebuttle only attack, Typical calvinist ploy. I can not actually defeat my enemy with the word of God so I have to attach them.

yeah good luck with that, when you have something come talk to me

 

[Eternally Grateful]

But I'm right, God is a God of hate.

No he is not.

He is also a jealous God, He is also a God of vengeance, He is also a God of patience, He is also a God of mercy, He is also a God of war.

Yes, He is a God of justice. But it does not retract from the fact he is a God of love, He died for everyone because he loved them, and he will judge them if they do nto recieve his love gift.

I can give you a long list of Gods attributes, you Arminians have created a fake "god of love" in your minds. Such a false god only exists in your imagination.

Dude, stop it your making a fool of yourself.

There are no arminians that I know of in this chat room, if there are. they are well hiden..

You want to talk about the word. lets talk. You want to play this silly game I will ignore you.

I can't understand why you reject the God of the bible and create a fictitious god for yourself. The only logical reason I can think of is, that you don't like the God of the Bible, because He doesn't love evil doers.

I am not rejecting the god of the bible. you are..

You keep including yourself to this "us" word, what evidence do you have to support the notion that the "us" refers to you. Again, the only evidence you have is in your fantasy but it doesn't exist outside of your mind. If you had biblical evidence, you would show it, but I can't trust your private opinions.

What evidence do you have that the US does not refer to me?

You say you're not an Arminian, but your entire theology is pure Arminianism.

No. Because I believe in OSAS or eternal salvation. So you just made a total and utter fool of youirself in falsly accusing me of somethign I am not.

I REJECT ARMINIAN THEOLOG AND CALVIN THEOLOGY>

Get that through your head dude.. Or go someplace e4lse. i am sure there are many calvinist chatrooms you can go and pounce on people all you want

You obviously don't even know that you have fallen victim to his doctrine of Demons. The Bible says that God will send them strong delusion so they will believe the lies. So it's actually God who blinds the wicked, so they can't receive the saving knowledge of the truth.

Your obviously ignorant of the fact that the Church is divided because of the two gospels, which you call Calvinism and Arminianism. I don't label them as such, because they should be labeled according to their interpretation of the gospel. Jacob Arminius preached the gospel of works, where the person is saved or condemned according to their works. John Calvin preached the gospel of grace, where God saves people according to His election.

You claim to reject both interpretations, but you have never revealed which interpretation you believe to be correct. You can't sit on the fence and claim ignorance in this situation, you have to take sides or offer a third option and don't try to claim that nonsense that you believe what the bibles says because everyone of the 45,000 denominations believe as you do. They believe everyone else is wrong and they are right. That is the height of ignorance.

YAWN. Nothing here to even give any heed to. all based on lack of knowledge and brainwashing..

yes, I am being strong in my words. because what you are doing is for the birds. i am calling you out for it.

 

[PinSeeker]

...Romans 10 and Acts 16 explain HOW we become saved. Do you agree?

Okay. So. :) In answer to this, I'll quote your post 741. I think I'm going to have to split this up; sorry. So to open:

But it's always for PURPOSE or for HOW or for WHY but never for WHO....

Hmmm... Okay, I agree, but Paul is writing a personal letter to groups of Christians, so we know the who, too, right? And he talks about specific groups like God's elect. And he talks about himself quite a bit, and "us," and "we," and "our," referring to those of us who have been born again of the Spirit, and even predestined, So I don't agree ~ at all ~ with the "never for who" part.

And you can do what you want, certainly, but I am always careful about using words like 'never' and 'always.' :)

If this method is applied to all verses, using context, the understanding always turns out to be one of the above reason.

Again, I am always careful about using words like 'never' and 'always.'

To be continued...

 

[PinSeeker]

Continued from above...

Ephesians 1:3-13
God chose us IN CHRIST before the beginning. Those who be be chosen, would be chosen because we are IN CHRIST.

Disagree. We are not actually in Christ until we are born again of the Spirit.

Yes, God chose some before the foundation of the world, as Paul says in Ephesians 1:4, and therefore we are members of His elect according to His purpose of election (Romans 9:11) and thus "vessels of mercy, and thus prepared beforehand for glory" (Romans 9:23; Paul tells us in Romans 8:30 that ultimately we will be glorified). Thus, we are among those whom He foreknew ~ which is synonymous with fore-loved, and even fore-chose ~ and are thus predestined ~ "for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will (Ephesians 1:5) ~ and will certainly be, in order, called, justified, and glorified (Romans 8:30).

Until we are born again of the Spirit, though, we are in Adam, which we can clearly see from what Paul says in Romans 5:12... "just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned..." and Romans 5:17... "...because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man..." This is the concept of federalism; Adam is the federal head of the human race. He (and Eve) acquired this condition of being dead in sin ~ they died "that very day," as God told him he would in Genesis 2:17, when they partook of the forbidden tree in Genesis 3.

Aside: Now, they didn't physically die, clearly, but this death was of a different nature. They became dead in their sin; their spirits became dead to God and thus in need of rebirth of the Spirit. Remember what Jesus says to Nicodemus in John 3:6... "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."​

So, that condition was and is passed down to his (Adam's) progeny... all of mankind, as Eve is the mother of all the living (Genesis 3:20). That makes us all, naturally speaking, from birth, even from conception, dead in our sin... having a sinful nature ~ and thus of course not in Christ, but in Adam, and thus in need of Christ and salvation... and God's mercy. From our very beginning, we are fully deserving of the wrath of God.

To be continued (again)...

 

[PinSeeker]

Continued from above...

The jailer asked how he could be saved.... BELIEVE IN THE LORD JESUS AND YOU WILL BE SAVED. Acts 16:31 This is how one is saved and will be IN CHRIST....by believing in the Lord... not by waiting for God to chose the person. Paul instructed the jailer TO BELIEVE, an act of the will.

Well, believing ~ and repenting... and of course choosing ~ is (are) certainly an act (acts) of the will, absolutely. There can be no doubt about that. We have brains, and we use them to do all these things. :) But what drives that will? Why do you do the things you do? Make the decisions you make? And subsequently ~ in view of what I said above about us being, naturally, from birth, before we are born again of the Spirit, dead in our sin, how will we naturally always, as a result, uh, use our brains? Until that point, concerning God Himself, because of our disposition toward Him, exercise our will? I think you know what I'm getting at, but as a gentle nudge in the right direction... :) ...remember what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 2:18, that "(t)he natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."

And regarding Acts in particular, remember something from Acts 13 ~ verse 48 in particular ~ that is often overlooked but very, very important about our belief: "...when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed." In view of this, you might recall what Jesus said in John 15:16 to His disciples (and us): "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide..." See?

5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
God predestined us.....to WHAT? as sons through Jesus Christ.

Right, "according to the kind intention of His will..." Not ours, but His. Which you agree with, I'm sure, as it's right there, right? So... read on... Paul says absolutely nothing ~ anywhere ~ to the effect of our not having a will, or it being somehow irrelevant, or our free and active use of it. However... see above, and read on...

God's will is that all men be saved. 1 Timothy 2:4 GOD DESIRES THAT ALL MEN BE SAVED.

Okay, let me ask you a personal question, GodsGrace. Not "personal," per se, but just of you personally:

Do you always act according to your desires? Is your will always ~ always, without exception ~ driven by and in perfect accordance with your personal desires? Or do you decide, at least sometimes, to act against those personal desires? For your own personal reasons... and even more relevantly because of what you're about and who you are in your inner being... whatever those reasons might be in any given situation, don't you at least sometimes act ~ exercise your will ~ contrary to your desire?

BUT they must WANT to be saved....they must believe, as instructed throughout the NT.

Absolutely. See above. :) Especially the dead part. :) And what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 2:14...

Romans 10:10 WITH THE H EART MAN BELIEVES

Yes, with the heart. Which, as Jeremiah (17:9) says, "is deceitful above all things; who can understand it?" :) With the heart, which, before we are born again of the Spirit, is of stone rather than flesh, and has to be changed from stone to flesh... we have to be given a new heart, and a new spirit put within us... we must have our heart of stone removed from our flesh be given a heart of flesh, which is an act of God, which God says through Ezekiel... God has to put His Spirit within us (Ezekiel 36:27). Again, quoting Jesus from John 3:6, "(t)hat which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." So something has to happen to our heart so that we will then exercise our will... rightly. :) This is God's act of re-creation. We cannot create or re-create ourselves; only God can do that. Remember what Jesus said, as documented in Matthew 19:26 and Mark 10:27 and Luke 18:27, in answer to the disciples asking Him, "Who then can be saved?"... "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible"... and "With man it is impossible, but not with God. For all things are possible with God"... and "What is impossible with man is possible with God" (respectively).

To be continued (again; sorry)...

 

[PinSeeker]

Continued again from above; I think this is the last one, sorry:

Romans 10:9 IF we confess with our mouth

Again,,,a HOW not a WHO.

Right, I agree, but see above.

AFTER LISTENING to the message of the gosple.....HAVING BELIEVED...

Right, but see above, and to your reference to Romans 10:9-10, verse 10 refers again to the heart, so what I said above about the heart should be sufficient to answer that, and, just a couple of sentences later, Paul says, "faith comes from hearing" (Romans 10:17). We hear, certainly, but this faith is defined in Hebrews 11:1 as "the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." This assurance is given to us by God, GG. Faith being given to us is an act of the Holy Spirit in us; it is the Holy Spirit Who gives us this assurance, according to the Father's will, and convicts us in this way. As I have said, faith itself is a gift of the Holy Spirit, which Paul is very explicit about in Ephesians 2 (below) and also particularly 1 Corinthians 12:4-11, particularly verse 9:

"Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone. To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. For to one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, Who apportions to each one individually as We wills."

And this is both a one-time act...
We are born again of the Spirit: "made alive together with Christ ~ by grace (we) have been saved ~ and raised up with Him and seated with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages He might show the immeasurable riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus... by grace (we) have been saved through faith... (a)nd this is not (our) own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast... we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them" (Ephesians 2:4-11])

...and in this life an ongoing act...
We are, as Peter says, "by God’s power being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time..." (1 Peter 1:5).

Remember, "Jesus is the author and perfector of our faith" (Hebrews 12:2). Certainly, our faith is our own, but it is worked in us, given to us, and sustained in us by God ~ according to the will of the Father and through the work in us by the Holy Spirit. Paul exhorts the Philippians (and us) to "work out your (our) own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." God doesn't "manipulate our will," but He does work in our heart so that we then... because of the good work in us that God began and will... will, not might... bring to completion at the day of Christ... this is what Paul has just said in Philippians 1:6 ... we then both will and work for His good pleasure.

Listen: Having Believed AFTER Listening to the gospel...we were then sealed.

Right, but in our hearing ~ which is really passive rather than active ~ there is something that happens to us, which is an act of God, that causes us to hear and then be doers, rather than just hearers only ("...be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks intently at his natural face in a mirror. For he looks at himself and goes away and at once forgets what he was like. But the one who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, he will be blessed in his doing." ~ James 1:14).

Everything else I underlined above shows the context of what Paul is saying.... everything he mentions is about being in Jesus, about things being in Him, things God purposed In Him, etc....

Weeeeeeelllllll.... yes, buuuuuuuut.... :)

... Acts 16:31 ?

Same as above.

Grace and peace to you, GodsGrace.

 

[GodsGrace]

Okay. So. :) In answer to this, I'll quote your post 741. I think I'm going to have to split this up; sorry. So to open:


Hmmm... Okay, I agree, but Paul is writing a personal letter to groups of Christians, so we know the who, too, right? And he talks about specific groups like God's elect. And he talks about himself quite a bit, and "us," and "we," and "our," referring to those of us who have been born again of the Spirit, and even predestined, So I don't agree ~ at all ~ with the "never for who" part.

And you can do what you want, certainly, but I am always careful about using words like 'never' and 'always.' :)


Again, I am always careful about using words like 'never' and 'always.'

To be continued...

Of course we know who.
The question at hand is: HOW DID THEY BECOME THE WHO?
Now, what I stated is that God does not choose WHO but HOW or WHY.

I was saying that when the NT speaks about predestination, it always refers to HOW or WHY but not WHO.

You've changed the topic to: Who is the elect.
Nice switch.

God's elect....

God's elect are, first of al the Jews, who God chose from the beginning of time to be the people through which He would reveal Himself.
The PEOPLE.....not individual persons.
In the OT persons were saved just like in the NT.....by faith.

Hebrews 11:38-39
38(men of whom the world was not worthy), wandering in deserts and mountains and caves and holes in the ground.
39And all these, having gained approval through their faith,

In the NT those that are IN CHRIST are the elect.
They're the elect because they've come to believe in God and have faith in Him.
Hebrews 11:6
6And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

God rewards those WHO SEEK HIM.
We're told throughout the bible to seek God.
Proverbs 8:17
17I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me.


So the elect can be the Jews - as a people
The elect can be believers that have gained their salvation through faith in God, same as in the OT.

But we were discussing predestination.....
Any verses that state that God chooses WHO will be saved from the beginning of time?

 

[PinSeeker]

Replacement theology teaches the church now possess all the promises Given to the nation of Israel. this is a false theology.

Well, Replacement theology teaches that the Church now possesses all the promises at the exclusion of the ethnically Jewish people, which, yes, is false. And to really encapsulate most everything you just said and answer to it very succinctly... :) ...to hold to a continued separation of the Jewish people from all other nations/people-groups regarding the promises ~ which is what dispensational thinkers, smart people as they may be, do ~ is just as false.

This does not prove your point.

In... your opinion. Again. :) I mean, that's okay; we can agree to disagree.

Paul is using the argument to disprove the jewish thinking that they were an automatic in, and they still had the mindset that gentiles were dirty and could never be saved.

Well, I agree with this to a certain degree... The way I would put it is, he's saying what he's saying that just because they're ethnically Jewish, they are not necessarily of God's Israel and not necessarily Jews of God ~ "...not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel..." (Romans 9:6) ~ which takes us back to Romans 2:28-29 and who true Jews of God's Israel are. But this is a letter to the Church in Rome, Eternally Grateful, which means he's addressing Gentiles ~ as he says at the outset of this very letter (after he introduces himself and states the authority by Whom and the reason for his writing): "To all those in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints: ..." So, what he's really doing there is debunking the Gentile notion that they are excluded and/or ineligible to receive these things or have no access to God and His promises and salvation itself. So, you're absolutely right about his referring to Israel as a nation... but mistaken (and you can call that my opinion if you like; I have no problem with that) about who really makes up this Israel Paul is really talking about... the Israel of God.

Context is your enemy

Right back atcha... :)

Which you have not disproven

In... your opinion. Yet again. Really, it's okay.

My friend, I can just read what you say, I put no spin on things..

Yes you do... :) How many times now ~ I've lost count... Well, it's a lot; I was never actually keeping count... :) ~ have you made what I've said into something it's not and I have had to correct ~ correct your restatements of what I have just said; your opinions regarding my opinions, as it were ~ in the very next post?

So you do not believe people are predestined to hell?

Have I not said no to this very question many times in this... exchange... between us?

That they are not, like Esau, born to be sent to hell with no option of ever coming to Christ?

Well, I would disagree ~ strongly ~ with what you say here about Esau. And thus all those not elect of God.

Hey, just a few little (free) tidbits :):

• You said, "Dispensational thinking is just putting history (And future) in bullet point form. We take different aspects of history (like before the fall of man) give it a bullet point, then attempt to sub point all of the things that pertain to that period of time." This is actually kind of a contradiction in and of itself, EG. Thank you for saying "we" and owning it, though... :) What it is, really, is saying God has dealt with His people differently in different time periods, which is just not true. What is true is that God has incrementally revealed Himself in newer and better ways through history and finally fully and completely in the person of Jesus Christ. And regarding the Old and New Testaments, they are not two different stories, but one, where the full implications of what is in the Old Testament are finally realized in the New... And vice-versa... Augustine was the first to say it, and it has been passed down through millennia: "In the Old Testament the New is concealed, in the New the Old is revealed.” Many dispensationalists, if not most, will agree with this, but they inadvertently refute it with... so many of their "understandings" of things therein.
• You said, "The mosaic was a temporary covenant," and I agree for the most part. Yes, there are the Ten Commandments, which sum up the entire Law, but there are actually three kinds of laws in the Old Testament, in the books of Moses (Genesis through Deuteronomy): 1) Civil, 2) Ceremonial, and 3) Moral. The moral is still and always will be in effect; Jesus Himself says, in Matthew 22:37-40, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets."
• You said, "If you can read the actual promises I am speaking of and say it was not for a specific group of people,. then I do not know what to tell you." But that's not what I said at all, EG. I said ~ and I quote myself ~ "they weren't just for those specific people, at least in the sense in which you understand these 'specific people' to be."
• In the Bible we read that there are some things (see Deuteronomy 16:22 and Proverbs 6:6-9, for example) ~ and even some people (see Psalm 5:5 and 11:5), Esau in particular (Malachi 1:3, Romans 9:13) ~ that God hates. So hate is not really incompatible with... not opposite... love. God can surely hate and does, but still be a God of love, and even be love, which, as John says, He is (1 John 4:8).
• Regarding the connectedness of the lesser covenants, you said, "They are not connected," and I say that is very wrong. They are discreet, for sure ~ about different things ~ but intimately connected as each subsequent one builds on to the previous, and finally comes to full connectedness in one Person, Christ Jesus the full and perfect expression of the one everlasting Covenant of God with His people. Yes, I agree that God is obligated to keep every one of them, as are we, but God has taken both His end of the Covenant and ours to keep it upon Himself, and to bear the penalty of not keeping it ~ death ~ on our behalf as well as His own. And He does that in the Person of Jesus Christ, who, as Paul says, "humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross" (Philippians 2:8).

Grace and peace to you.

 

[GodsGrace]

Continued from above...


Disagree. We are not actually in Christ until we are born again of the Spirit.

I agree with the above.
Once we become born again....we are IN CHRIST and we abide IN HIM.

Yes, God chose some before the foundation of the world, as Paul says in Ephesians 1:4, and therefore we are members of His elect according to His purpose of election (Romans 9:11) and thus "vessels of mercy, and thus prepared beforehand for glory" (Romans 9:23;

Sounds good,,,,but let's look at your verses:

Ephesians 1:3-5
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

God chose us IN HIM....He chose us to be holy and blameless IN CHRIST.
God predestined us to ADOPTION AS SON through Jesus.

The above is stating that God predestined but as to HOW and not WHO.
verses 3 to 5 say nothing of WHO but of HOW we would become saved.

God planned from the beginning because He knew Adam would fall.

Romans 9:11
11for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,

The above is speaking, again, about God's PURPOSE.
God purposed that the younger son would rule the older son....
the opposite of what normally took place.

God purposed that Jacob would rule and not Esau.

Paul tells us in Romans 8:30 that ultimately we will be glorified). Thus, we are among those whom He foreknew ~ which is synonymous with fore-loved, and even fore-chose ~ and are thus predestined ~ "for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will (Ephesians 1:5) ~ and will certainly be, in order, called, justified, and glorified (Romans 8:30).

Foreknow does not mean predestinate.
You're using the same scripture used above.
Except you see it through an idea you bring to it, not one that you take away from it.

God foreknew who would believe.
God called....those to be in the image of His Son.
They would be the first born of many....
Again, it's purpose....the persons that would come to believe would be called to fulfill
God's redemptive purpose.

Until we are born again of the Spirit, though, we are in Adam, which we can clearly see from what Paul says in Romans 5:12... "just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned..." and Romans 5:17... "...because of one man’s trespass, death reigned through that one man..." This is the concept of federalism; Adam is the federal head of the human race. He (and Eve) acquired this condition of being dead in sin ~ they died "that very day," as God told him he would in Genesis 2:17, when they partook of the forbidden tree in Genesis 3.

Agreed.

Aside: Now, they didn't physically die, clearly, but this death was of a different nature. They became dead in their sin; their spirits became dead to God and thus in need of rebirth of the Spirit. Remember what Jesus says to Nicodemus in John 3:6... "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." ​

Agreed.

So, that condition was and is passed down to his (Adam's) progeny... all of mankind, as Eve is the mother of all the living (Genesis 3:20). That makes us all, naturally speaking, from birth, even from conception, dead in our sin... having a sinful nature ~ and thus of course not in Christ, but in Adam, and thus in need of Christ and salvation... and God's mercy. From our very beginning, we are fully deserving of the wrath of God.

To be continued (again)...

Agreed.
But it's almost 10PM Friday here.
This might have to wait till Sunday.

 

[PinSeeker]

Of course we know who.

Okay. :)

The question at hand is: HOW DID THEY BECOME THE WHO?

Okay. See above... :)

Now, what I stated is that God does not choose WHO but HOW or WHY.

Right, and I disagree. I say He does both... or all three... :) This is not to say that we don't choose, because we certainly do, but only that without His gracious choice (before the foundation of the world) and without Him working in our heart by His Spirit first (giving us a new birth by His Spirit and raising us to newness of life in Christ Jesus), we would never make the right choice... because of the state of our heart from birth, which is the result of Adam's choice in Genesis 3.

I was saying that when the NT speaks about predestination, it always refers to HOW or WHY but not WHO.

Yes, I know. :)

You've changed the topic to: Who is the elect. Nice switch.

No switch. These are God's elect. If they are God's elect, that necessarily means God ~ and God alone ~ elects. And if He elects, does that not indicate a choice He has made? Certainly it does. There is no "switch."

God's elect are, first of all the Jews, who God chose from the beginning of time to be the people through which He would reveal Himself. The PEOPLE.....not individual persons.

Ah yes, I agree, but who are really Jews, God's Grace? Who are God's Jews, those of God's Israel? Paul tells us in Romans 2:28-29...

In the OT persons were saved just like in the NT.....by faith.

ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. Agreed.

In the NT those that are IN CHRIST are the elect.

Right, but in the OT also...

They're the elect because they've come to believe in God and have faith in Him.

Yes, and again, in the OT also... And regarding their coming to belief, again, we must understand that in the context of what we see in Acts 13:48, "when the Gentiles heard (what Paul and Barnabas were saying, in that particular instance), they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed." Which happened first, GodsGrace? Keep in mind what I said above...

God rewards those WHO SEEK HIM. We're told throughout the bible to seek God.

Agreed. This seeking God... do you believe this to require some degree of faith in us for us to actually do this? I hope so... So then remember again Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 2:14... "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned." And then in Ephesians 2-4-10... "But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace you have been saved ~ ...by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God ...we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them..." and finally the writer of Hebrews (12:2)... "Jesus is the author and perfecter of our faith."

So the elect can be the Jews - as a people

And here we are... :) In the sense in which you're referring to Jews, yes, certainly... absolutely! But not all the elect are Jews in that sense; not all Jewish people are elect... and the same is true of Gentiles. Everyone can be, for sure. Again, though, even among the ethnically Jewish, the Jewish people... "not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel..." Not all Jewish people are true Jews of God, in Paul's very context, which he explicitly states in Romans 2:28-29, that "...no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God."

The elect can be believers that have gained their salvation through faith in God, same as in the OT.

Absolutely. This is the case with all God's people regardless of ethnicity. Even some of the folks named in Hebrews 11, particularly Rahab, for example, are "foreigners"... not Jewish, but Gentile. But yet only true Jews, the Jews of God, will be saved.

But we were discussing predestination.....

Yes... :)

Any verses that state that God chooses WHO will be saved from the beginning of time?

His elect. Those whom He chooses. :) One cannot be elect of God if God has not chosen him/her. And anyone who God has not chosen before the foundation of the world will never be among His elect. These two things are inextricable.

Grace and peace to you

 

[PinSeeker]

I agree with the above. Once we become born again....we are IN CHRIST and we abide IN HIM.

Yes. Great!

God chose us IN HIM....He chose us to be holy and blameless IN CHRIST.

Absolutely. Great! This makes us elect of God.

God predestined us to ADOPTION AS SON through Jesus.

Absolutely. Because He chose us. Because we are among His elect. I think... I think you're kind of conflating what is certain to be but not actually effected yet with what has been made to be effective.

God planned from the beginning because He knew Adam would fall.

Absolutely.

God purposed that Jacob would rule and not Esau.

Sure, absolutely. And by inference, He purposed who were and would be His elect, His people, whom He chose for Himself ~ for His own glory.

Foreknow does not mean predestinate.

I... didn't say it did/does, GG. We are predestined because we have been foreknown... fore-loved, which fits perfectly with John's great statement that "We love because He (God) first loved us" (1 John 4:19).

Except you see it through an idea you bring to it, not one that you take away from it.

I think you have the wrong idea of... well, a misperception of... my idea... :)

God foreknew who would believe.

Ah. I... foresaw ~ see what I did there? :) ~ this... Yes, we should talk about that word 'foreknew' that Paul uses in Romans 8:30. You will agree, I'm sure, that we must understand Paul's context there. It is possible to understand 'foreknew' as a cognitive knowing beforehand; that is not an invalid understanding of that term in and of itself. If we are to understand it in that sense, though, that makes what Paul is saying to be nonsensical, even contradictory, because in that sense, God foreknows ~ cognitively knows beforehand ~ everyone and everything. But Paul, in saying "those whom He foreknew," is very clearly referring to a limited group, and thus very clearly implying that there are at least some that He did not foreknow. So, his use of the word 'foreknew' must have at least a slightly different... :) ...meaning, or connotation.

How then should we understand it? Well, I would submit to you, EG, that in various places in the Bible, knowing something or someone is directly said ~ both in the Old Testament Hebrew and the New Testament Greek ~ in the context of loving and serving someone... doing something for them and... causing something to happen. Consider Genesis 4, where we read that "Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain" (Genesis 4:1). We can assume the same is true subsequently of Abel because of the "And again" at the first of Genesis 4:2. Likewise, in Genesis 4:17, Cain knew his wife, and then in Genesis 4:25, Adam knew his wife again, and she bore a son and called his name Seth." So this knowing is in a very different sense, obviously, because, just woodenly speaking, of course Adam and Cain knew who their wives were, but knowing in that sense would not cause them to conceive and bear children, right?

But we should understand this 'foreknew' in Romans 8:30 in a very similar sense: loved beforehand... and even chose for Himself... beforehand. And that can ~ and should ~ take us back to what John says, as I cited above, that "We love because He (God) first loved us" (1 John 4:19). Now, yes, God loves all His creation, but He does not extend His mercy to all, but only extends that mercy to those He chooses/elects. That might seem... unloving... but the fact is that He is not obligated to extend that mercy to anyone, as none are deserving of it, and in fact deserving of just the opposite. And Paul tells us why he extended this mercy to some and not all, and that he was wholly within his right to do so. The potter (God, the Creator) has every right over the clay (us, the created), to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use, and so to extend mercy to one but not the other.

Three more things:

1.) God predestines. Paul says this explicitly. Very clearly he says that we do not ~ indeed cannot ~ predestine ourselves in the way we are predestined, to be conformed to the image of His Son. That doesn't mean we don't or can't make a choice, but only that it does not depend on our choice, but on His, which is exactly what Paul says in Romans 9 regarding being one of God's elect, that "...He says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy" (Romans 9:15-16).

2.) Maybe I'm repeating myself here, but it is God Who calls; Paul very clearly says that in Romans 8:30. And spilling back over into Romans 9, we do not elect ourselves to be elect of God, else we are not God's elect, but our own elect, which is absolutely contrary to what Paul says, again, specifically that "it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy" (Romans 9:16).

3.) Remember what the prophet Joel says, that "it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the LORD has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the LORD calls" (Joel 2:32). This point follows point 2 above. See the cause and effect relationship here, that our calling on the name of the LORD and our subsequent salvation is because of the LORD's call, which comes to us whom He has chosen, before the foundation of the world, before any of us has done anything good or bad, because of His grace. Which fits perfectly with Jesus's "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide..." (John 15:16).

God called....those to be in the image of His Son.

Absolutely.

Agreed... Agreed... Agreed

Great! Great! Great! :)

But it's almost 10PM Friday here. This might have to wait till Sunday.

Fair enough. Are you British?

Grace and peace to you, GG.

 

[Christian Soldier]

I only reply to scripture.
As I stated already....your OPINIONS don't interest me.

I guess that's all you've got....opinions.

As a professing Christian, I expected you to know the scriptures which pertain to this subject. I have paraphrased the scriptures, to support Reformed Theology but I'll happily cite some here for your consideration. Please let me know which of the following scriptures you reject.
Reformed Theology embraces the whole counsel of God, we don't reject any scriptures as other do when, they don't agree with what God said. We don't cherry pick the Bible as other here do.

(Gen 6:5), that the intent of man's heart is only evil from his youth
(Gen 8:21), that there is absolutely no spiritual soundness in man
(Isa 1:5-6), that God doesn't even put his trust in his own holy angels let alone man who is detestable, corrupt and drinks iniquity like water
(Job 15:14-16), and that sinful man in the eyes of a thrice Holy God is nothing more than a maggot, a worm
(Job 25:4-6), that no man does good
(Ps 14:3), that man is brought forth in iniquity and in sin his mother conceived him
(Ps 51:5), that the wicked are estranged from the womb and those who speak lies go astray from birth
(Ps 58:3-4), that indeed all men are liars
(Ps 116:11), that man searches out many evil schemes
(Eccl 7:29), that men deal very treacherously and are rebels from birth
(Isa 48:8), that all men's righteousness are as a woman's menstrual cloth
(Isa 64:6), that's it's impossible for man to do good when they are accustomed to doing evil
(Jer 13:23), that man's heart is so desperately wicked and deceitful above all else that no one can even understand this truth (Jer 17:9), that there is no one good except God alone
(Mk 10:18), that there's no good thing in man's sinful nature
(Rom 7:18), that men love the darkness and hate the light
(Jn 3:19), that man himself is darkness
(Eph 5:8), that the [sons of] darkness
(1Thes 5:5) do not understand the light
(Jn 1:5), that men hate God and his Son

As you can see from those verses, man has no ability t all to understand Gods Word, unless God reveals it to him. Man is dead in trespasses and sin. Dead men can do nothing, but the Arminians believe dead men can save themselves. Reformed Theology is the most faithful interpretation of Scripture because we never add or take away anything from what God said.

 

[Christian Soldier]

lol.. You are decieved my friend. You can not back out of your arminian vs calvin war you have conjured up in your head. why are you even here? jus tto attack people who do not agree with you?

I'm only quoting Gods Word and you find that offensive. I believe Reformed Theology is Biblically sound, you mock it but you have never ever found a single fault with it. You don't like it, because it exposes your false doctrine. I can see any other reason as you haven't given any for your rejection of Gods Word.

It would be interesting to find out what you actually believe, you have never stated it. You just slander what others believe, without providing any counter argument and that does nothing for your credibility.

 

[PinSeeker]

(Gen 6:5), that the intent of man's heart is only evil from his youth
(Gen 8:21), that there is absolutely no spiritual soundness in man
(Job 25:4-6), that no man does good
(Ps 14:3), that man is brought forth in iniquity and in sin his mother conceived him
(Ps 51:5), that the wicked are estranged from the womb and those who speak lies go astray from birth
(Ps 58:3-4), that indeed all men are liars
(Ps 116:11), that man searches out many evil schemes
(Eccl 7:29), that men deal very treacherously and are rebels from birth
(Jer 13:23), that man's heart is so desperately wicked and deceitful above all else that no one can even understand this truth (Jer 17:9), that there is no one good except God alone
(Mk 10:18), that there's no good thing in man's sinful nature
(Rom 7:18), that men love the darkness and hate the light
(Jn 3:19), that man himself is darkness
(Eph 5:8), that the [sons of] darkness
(1Thes 5:5) do not understand the light
(Jn 1:5), that men hate God and his Son

To these I would add at least Romans 3:23, Romans 5:12, 1 Corinthians 2:14, and Ephesians 2:3, that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God", "sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned", "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned," and "(all men are ) by nature children of wrath," respectively. This is what so many will not accept, what Calvin called the total depravity of man. If they were able to digest that, then the rest of the chips would surely fall... the U, L, I, and P would then ~ in order ~ be irrefutable. But, so it goes...

Grace and peace to you, CS.

 

[Christian Soldier]

Dude, Get off your high horse. Try to listen to what she said not attack her.

You are offering no rebuttle to anything she has said, only attack.

Again, Do you have a purpose? Are you going to beat us all into submission?

My purpose is to share the gospel with everyone. I must defend the truth of the gospel, when someone denies the truth. I appreciate the gospel is highly offensive to many professing Christians, but I don't think we should pretend to agree with those who pervert the gospel and preach a different gospel.
The gospel message shouldn't be perverted for the sake of unity and harmony, as that would dishonor the Lord. I would rather be loved by God, then wicked man.