When are God's Elect Justified?

[Scott Downey]

I am careful to maintain the Biblical distinction between propitiation and justification because Christians seem to have lost an essential aspect of the Gospel message -- connection. For example,

Matthew 7:22-23 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

What does it mean for Christ to 'know' me? This 'knowing' is not just about recognition, but about a deep, personal relationship. What is my connection to Jesus Christ? How does Jesus regard me? The Gospel's most essential aspect is the idea that our salvation depends on how we are related to Jesus Christ. Who is he to me personally?

Sometimes our "salvation formula" is missing that aspect and it is critical that we understand why connection is so important. Consider the following passage.

John 5:21-23 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes. For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

Essentially, Jesus decides whom to save and if we are not connected to him as one of his disciples and walk according to his gospel, we will not be saved.

And how do we get connected with Christ? By the express will and purpose of God directed to us.
And not all have that.

Christ knew all men, inside and outside. But he did not know them as in a mutual, loving relationship as a part of His family.
Yes, God and Christ determine salvation for any particular person, and it is not by the will of the man that anyone is saved. John 1:10-13 says, it is by the will of God.
It is the Spirit who gives (spiritual and physical) life, not the flesh and until you are born of God you are of the flesh and not of the Spirit.

John 6

Many Disciples Turn Away​

60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a [m]hard saying; who can understand it?”

61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples [n]complained about this, He said to them, “Does this [o]offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.
65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

66 From that time many of His disciples went [p]back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the [q]Christ, the Son of the living God.”

But God had granted some to come to Christ, believe and be saved, but not the ones who walked away.
God is all persons Creator God, but God is not their Father God unless God chooses to adopt them into the family of God.

 

[brightfame52]

Believe is the condition by which a person is saved.

Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12


Notice these by the wayside did indeed hear, but they did not believe.

... lest they should believe and be saved.


Believe = Saved





JLB

Right, a condition, an action, that's works. You have denied Grace Salvation. Cant be by Grace and your works combine. Once you make anything the sinner does or act, it automatically defaults to salvation by works.

 

[brightfame52]

I am careful to maintain the Biblical distinction between propitiation and justification because Christians seem to have lost an essential aspect of the Gospel message -- connection. For example,

Matthew 7:22-23 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

What does it mean for Christ to 'know' me? This 'knowing' is not just about recognition, but about a deep, personal relationship. What is my connection to Jesus Christ? How does Jesus regard me? The Gospel's most essential aspect is the idea that our salvation depends on how we are related to Jesus Christ. Who is he to me personally?

Sometimes our "salvation formula" is missing that aspect and it is critical that we understand why connection is so important. Consider the following passage.

John 5:21-23 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes. For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

Essentially, Jesus decides whom to save and if we are not connected to him as one of his disciples and walk according to his gospel, we will not be saved.

You lost me

 

[CadyandZoe]

You lost me

I'm sorry if I was confusing. I agree with your post.

I clumsily attempted to add a comment about Christ's intercession as our high priest.

 

[brightfame52]

I'm sorry if I was confusing. I agree with your post.

I clumsily attempted to add a comment about Christ's intercession as our high priest.

Okay

 

[Scott Downey]

We were DEAD in trespasses and sins, God made us alive who were dead.

Saved only by GRACE

“I, even I, am He who blots out your transgressions for My own sake;
And I will not remember your sins."

And a faith not of us, it is the gift of God, not our works, lest any consider boasting.

If it was by faith you were saved, then Paul would have put that first.
BUT Paul writes GRACE first, verse 5.
It is Grace saving us and faith coming along afterwards.

Same thing with good works.
Grace saves us then good works follow afterwards.

However, about those good works, God declared what we would do, before we were saved by Him.
Our salvation is complete in Him from the beginning of time, that we would be His people, even though we were dead in sin, in our own time.

Ephesians 2
And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the [a]course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

 

[brightfame52]

@Scott Downey

We were DEAD in trespasses and sins, God made us alive who were dead.

Eph 2:5

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

Amen, so what condition did the dead sinner act upon when he was quickened according to this verse ?

 

[JLB]

Right, a condition, an action, that's works. You have denied Grace Salvation. Cant be by Grace and your works combine. Once you make anything the sinner does or act, it automatically defaults to salvation by works.

Grace through faith is how we are saved.

We believe with our heart, and confess with our mouth, Jesus is LORD.

If denotes the condition.

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9


Thank goodness we have scripture and the Spirit of Truth to lead and guide us into all truth, and don't need to rely on the opinions and musings of man.



JLB

 

[brightfame52]

Grace through faith is how we are saved.

We believe with our heart, and confess with our mouth, Jesus is LORD.

If denotes the condition.

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9


Thank goodness we have scripture and the Spirit of Truth to lead and guide us into all truth, and don't need to rely on the opinions and musings of man.



JLB

So you admit you are saved by works, a condition you performed. Say goodby to Grace friend, because they dont mix

 

[JLB]

So you admit you are saved by works, a condition you performed. Say goodby to Grace friend, because they dont mix

Those are your words.

I was saved by grace through faith.

No one is saved before they hear and believe the Gospel message of salvation.

The faith part is hearing the word of salvation.

So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17


Your grace alone salvation does not exist in scripture.


How can a person be saved without hearing the Gospel of Jesus Christ?

That would be a faithless, Christless salvation.

How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? Romans 10:14




JLB

 

[Scott Downey]

@Scott Downey



Eph 2:5

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

Amen, so what condition did the dead sinner act upon when he was quickened according to this verse ?

Not a thing.
God made them alive who were dead in sin.

People have complained that it is arbitrary, but that is from their POV of the flesh.
Everything God does is with purpose and the council of His own will.
******************************************************************************
11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who[d] is the [e]guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

 

[Scott Downey]

Grace through faith is how we are saved.

We believe with our heart, and confess with our mouth, Jesus is LORD.

If denotes the condition.

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9


Thank goodness we have scripture and the Spirit of Truth to lead and guide us into all truth, and don't need to rely on the opinions and musings of man.



JLB

Your not wrong exactly, but the important part of salvation by grace of God, is God gives to you your faith to believe and confess Him before men.
This is a faith not of yourself, it is the gift of God.

IF part there is of course still true, but the 'if' is not why we are saved, it is a product of the fruit of the Spirit in your life that you believe.
All the people God grants to Christ, all that He grants to believe in Christ will do that IF verse.

 

[Scott Downey]

It very clearly states right here who is the AUTHOR of 'our' faith.
Authors write books, God wrote His laws on your heart when He gave you the new heart, made your born again.

Hebrews 12
Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 looking unto Jesus, the [a]author and [b]finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

That is how this NC works,
Hebrews 8 also shows it is not anything to do with us that we are saved.

Think of us and salvation like a machine, with new programming to do a task, once started it fulfills the task it was designed to do.
Doing all the ifs, bearing the good fruit, etc... it is become a part of our new nature if we are made part of the new covenant.

A New Covenant​

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins [b]and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

 

[JLB]

Your not wrong exactly, but the important part of salvation by grace of God, is God gives to you your faith to believe and confess Him before men

Brother, faith comes when we hear the Gospel; the word of God.



Those who believe and confess Jesus as their Lord are saved.

For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:10

 

[Scott Downey]

Brother, faith comes when we hear the Gospel; the word of God.



Those who believe and confess Jesus as their Lord are saved.

For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:10

Jesus did not say confessing or speaking was the criteria for salvation, All He says is believe.
The speaking part comes later. It is something a saved person does as a sign of their salvation to the world.

What does a mute person say to be saved?
Following your logic, a mute person cannot be saved.

Here is the truth, and God has set His seal on this and given all authority to Christ.
John 5

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.

26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.

 

[Scott Downey]

AND THIS ALSO
John 3

12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man [b]who is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should [c]not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.

21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

This v21, those deeds that the Christ believers did, were done in God.
God prepared before hand all the good deeds those who believe will do, and it confirms their eternal life is true and real and genuine.

And one of those deeds is confessing to the world their belief in Christ.

People need to believe to be saved, the deeds confirm their salvation as a witness to the world.
Like Christ says, you shall be my witnesses. And we are to speak for and not be ashamed of the gospel for what does it say??

1 Cor 18
18 For the [g]message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.”
20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the [h]disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

 

[Scott Downey]

And again
Romans 1
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel [c]of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.

17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”

 

[Scott Downey]

Where is the speaking here?
Being born again is mentioned.
Kept by the power of God through faith for salvation is mentioned too.
BELIEVING is mentioned, with the end result as your salvation
1 Peter 1

A Heavenly Inheritance​

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance [b]incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been [c]grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not [d]seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.

 

[brightfame52]

Those are your words.

I was saved by grace through faith.

No one is saved before they hear and believe the Gospel message of salvation.

The faith part is hearing the word of salvation.

So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17


Your grace alone salvation does not exist in scripture.


How can a person be saved without hearing the Gospel of Jesus Christ?

That would be a faithless, Christless salvation.

How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? Romans 10:14




JLB

You say one is saved by a condition they do,believing. Thats your action a work. Forget about Grace Salvation

 

[brightfame52]

Not a thing.
God made them alive who were dead in sin.

People have complained that it is arbitrary, but that is from their POV of the flesh.
Everything God does is with purpose and the council of His own will.
******************************************************************************
11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who[d] is the [e]guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

So being saved by Grace is unconditional sense it happened while one is dead in sin Eph 2:5